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Post by beaverstever on Feb 20, 2018 23:22:13 GMT -8
Not totally Off Topic.... but definitely tangential... be warned stream of consciousness without much of a point coming, it's been a long day  ... The "N-Word" is strange. I can not think of another single word that is even close to as taboo or has as much of a stigma, yet it pervades our society and lexicon. It is also strange in that it is verboten only when used by certain people, and then only when used in certain circumstances and contexts. Further the meaning and usage of the word has completely and utterly changed over the last generation and then again the generation before that, there was a time when everybody, even a person of color would be very careful and selective when using the word, but now it is more common than many prepositions, it is in fact USED many times as a preposition... As the father of a teenager, I am confronted by this word A LOT. Not used by my teen, but constantly coursing through their headphones and speakers. The paradox is to the point where they sing along to the song, but self censor the n-word (quick aside... why do we think substituting "the n-word" is better than using the actual word? Now we are just putting the onus on the reader to insert the actual word in their minds or not...). Even though in most of the raps it is just used as a rhyming device, with no ill will or racism attached for either singer or listener, yet the societal prohibition on this word is so strong and embedded, even in a teen, that it gets cut out when singing along. As I workout every morning at the gym there is often a buddy of mine there, he happens to be black, and many times there is loud rap music playing, so of course the n-word is floating through the air, no one seems to notice or mind. We are both often humming and bobbing our heads along with the music, again no one cares or minds, I do wonder what would happen though if in my sleepy state (I work out early), or while concentrating on a lift and not what I am carelessly half singing along to I let a n-word slip through. Would the black acquaintance notice? Would it upset him? Would it be noticed or would it upset any of the other white gym goers? To try to bring this all back to the situation at hand... If someone used a racial slur towards a USC player, for whatever reason, or in any context (not buying the "reactionary" hypothetical either) they should be banned for life from Gill. Clearly the use of the n-word is never ok when it's being used as a put down... ANY WORD is not a word that is OK when being used as a put down... You can honestly and even angrily express you displeasure without being an insulting jerk. The context here is clear, an angry racial epithet is never appropriate. I am just saying, words are weird man, and the n-word is the weirdest of them all... It may be the most charged term, but it's not an unusual thing to occur. What you are grappling with is when a word goes through reappropriation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reappropriation. If you use the term, your ethnicity does not fit the reappropriated form, so it infers the original context of the word's use - which is where it gets awkward in your gym scenario. There are many other examples of words that have gone through this as well, some found in the wiki link. Also, if someone dropped the 'c' word at a women's basketball game, the reaction would likely be similar in anger level, possibly even higher. Frankly, that word's level of severity in American culture seems stranger to me, particularly how much it's thrown around freely in other English-speaking countries. |
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Post by willtalk on Feb 21, 2018 12:44:27 GMT -8
I watched the entire game twice. I didn’t see USC players displaying “open contempt” for anything or anyone during the course of the game. They were just playing basketball and competing. So your dubious premise does not even apply to this situation. My original point was that racist language does not always imply racism in the mind of the deliverer. You failed to see the reason I mention this: People on this BOARD, not in or at the game, seemed to be assuming that racist language always implies racial bias. It's a common error that people make that I was attempting to expose. For what it is worth I understand your point. I would say that sometimes it is an error but other times it is a willful decision. That is where the Political comes into the "political correct" moniker. I, and I assume some others do not have a problem with the "Correct" part of Political Correctness. It is the Political aspect that often make it a problem for me. Since my late teens I have held myself to a high ethical standard in respect to how I treat others. I never use profanity nor any sort of personal insult to label anyone. I hold to the principle that you never judge the individual by what ever group they can be classified into. Nor do I put the actions of any individual upon their group. I have lived by this standard for quite a long time. I lived by the present PC standards long before it was PC. In fact when the exact opposite was PC. I also resent that we live in a time when people have to make sure that they are not labeled as bigots before they can even make a statement about any relevant subject as I just did. The problem I have with PC in todays world is that it is often motivated not by civility, propriety or common courtesy, but rather by an opportunity to promote either political or personal agenda's. So that a persons sense of fair play or inherent guilt might be manipulated to support something they would ordinarily not. The "Correctness" is thus used as a "Trojan Horse" to promote the "personal or political" agenda. Back to your other point- When we are angry we sometimes look for the most convenient means to hurt the person we are angry at. Often that is via labels. We call females "b1tch's or males Bastards" when in reality both we an the recipient of our insult knows that it does not really apply. I think that is what your are trying to suggest. Racism has become the "bully club" of choice in todays society and is being used very effectively, because no one wants to be labeled a racist. Ironically it does not seem to occur tho many people that calling someone a racist who isn't is probably more offensive than any racist labels themselves. Or perhaps to some it does and that is why it is so often used. Ask most people if they would rather be called some ethnic slur or be labeled a racist? To rational people an ethnic slur is meaningless, because it is based on an untruth. Being called a racist is not, because in todays world it identifies you as a most vile individual. Any sort of slur has the greatest effect on those who are most insecure in their identity. It hits them at their most vulnerable point. That is why it is important to not use them. Why create more insecurity for those that can least handle it. Should we live our lives to build people up or tear them down. |
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Post by Werebeaver on Feb 21, 2018 13:15:09 GMT -8
My original point was that racist language does not always imply racism in the mind of the deliverer. You failed to see the reason I mention this: People on this BOARD, not in or at the game, seemed to be assuming that racist language always implies racial bias. It's a common error that people make that I was attempting to expose. For what it is worth I understand your point. I would say that sometimes it is an error but other times it is a willful decision. That is where the Political comes into the "political correct" moniker. I, and I assume some others do not have a problem with the "Correct" part of Political Correctness. It is the Political aspect that often make it a problem for me. Since my late teens I have held myself to a high ethical standard in respect to how I treat others. I never use profanity nor any sort of personal insult to label anyone. I hold to the principle that you never judge the individual by what ever group they can be classified into. Nor do I put the actions of any individual upon their group. I have lived by this standard for quite a long time. I lived by the present PC standards long before it was PC. In fact when the exact opposite was PC. I also resent that we live in a time when people have to make sure that they are not labeled as bigots before they can even make a statement about any relevant subject as I just did. The problem I have with PC in todays world is that it is often motivated not by civility, propriety or common courtesy, but rather by an opportunity to promote either political or personal agenda's. So that a persons sense of fair play or inherent guilt might be manipulated to support something they would ordinarily not. The "Correctness" is thus used as a "Trojan Horse" to promote the "personal or political" agenda. Back to your other point- When we are angry we sometimes look for the most convenient means to hurt the person we are angry at. Often that is via labels. We call females "b1tch's or males Bastards" when in reality both we an the recipient of our insult knows that it does not really apply. I think that is what your are trying to suggest. Racism has become the "bully club" of choice in todays society and is being used very effectively, because no one wants to be labeled a racist. Ironically it does not seem to occur tho many people that calling someone a racist who isn't is probably more offensive than any racist labels themselves. Or perhaps to some it does and that is why it is so often used. Ask most people if they would rather be called some ethnic slur or be labeled a racist? To rational people an ethnic slur is meaningless, because it is based on an untruth. Being called a racist is not, because in todays world it identifies you as a most vile individual. Any sort of slur has the greatest effect on those who are most insecure in their identity. It hits them at their most vulnerable point. That is why it is important to not use them. Why create more insecurity for those that can least handle it. Should we live our lives to build people up or tear them down. “because no one wants to be labeled a racist.” You sure about that? Many in this country are happy to espouse racist opinions (I won’t call them “ideas” or “thoughts”) and to be known as racists. They’re not hard to find, sadly. |
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Post by Werebeaver on Feb 21, 2018 13:24:07 GMT -8
“because no one wants to be labeled a racist.” You sure about that? Many in this country are happy to espouse racist opinions (I won’t call them “ideas” or “thoughts”) and to be known as racists. They’re not hard to find, sadly. There are women who are happy to be called the c-word, too. However, most are the opposite. I can honestly say I’ve never met one of those. Met a lot of unapologetic racists though. |
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Post by willtalk on Feb 21, 2018 13:47:18 GMT -8
I stand corrected. I should not have used such a broad term as "no one" in respect to being labeled a racist. I do realize that there are some people who are proud to be racists. Yet I myself would not label someone a racist on a few superficial statements and beliefs. I believe that is why most people feel it necessary to either give a life history or expound on their philosophy before making any statement that might make others perceive them as racists. One reason is that the term has taken on a very broad meaning to justify the vilification of those that might not agree with our political or social agenda's. Unfortunately many people have bought into those definition standards not recognizing that they are being manipulated philosophically. Distort the meaning of a word and you distort and destroy the concept that word either represents. or is used to convey.
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Post by Werebeaver on Feb 21, 2018 18:36:46 GMT -8
I stand corrected. I should not have used such a broad term as "no one" in respect to being labeled a racist. I do realize that there are some people who are proud to be racists. Yet I myself would not label someone a racist on a few superficial statements and beliefs. I believe that is why most people feel it necessary to either give a life history or expound on their philosophy before making any statement that might make others perceive them as racists. One reason is that the term has taken on a very broad meaning to justify the vilification of those that might not agree with our political or social agenda's. Unfortunately many people have bought into those definition standards not recognizing that they are being manipulated philosophically. Distort the meaning of a word and you distort and destroy the concept that word either represents. or is used to convey. Taking this away from the abstract and back to the specific. Minyon Moore’s accusations referred to specific verbal insults by OSU fans directed toward USC players during the game. “Nig***s” and “Black Bit***s”. I do not consider myself a racist. But if I, for any reason, decided to direct either of those verbal assaults at any college basketball player, I would not expect anyone to be the least bit curious about my motivations or what is in my heart. I would fully expect to be labeled a racist. I would have more than earned the label. And any burden of proof would be on ME to prove otherwise. And let’s be perfectly clear. USC players did absolutely nothing on the court Sunday to warrant either of those insults (assuming for the moment that they actually occurred). Would you want Deven or JenVonta or Breanna or Kolbie or Gabriella or Madison or Taya or Destiny or Coach Ely to be subjected to that kind of garbage? Would you care what “reasons” were given by the racist idiots who spewed that verbal garbage on them? |
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Post by markwbeaver on Feb 21, 2018 18:47:51 GMT -8
Well said, Squonk.
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Post by Werebeaver on Feb 21, 2018 19:45:23 GMT -8
Minyon Moore’s accusations referred to specific verbal insults by OSU fans directed toward USC players during the game. “Nig***s” and “Black Bit***s”. So, FROM THE COURT they heard this, but NOBODY else heard (and nobody said a word). Totally plausible. That’s the allegation. I would consider it implausible too, frankly. But I wasn’t there. Other Beaver fans on this board have said words to the effect of “don’t kid yourself “ and “not surprised at all”. Its also implausible to me to that someone just fabricate such a tale. So who the f knows? |
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rafer
Sophomore
Posts: 1,640 
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Post by rafer on Feb 21, 2018 20:01:05 GMT -8
All it takes is the accusation, and I'm not taking sides, it's a "he said, she said" situation, and there is virtually no way to reasonably deny it or mitigate it. If it's true, its certainly not who most fans are, if it's false, we are all guilty anyway in the media and the rest of the PAC. Damage done, end of story, truly a pathetic situation. I've never heard anything like this and it seems like someone around this person would come forward if it happened and was heard by others. If someone has come forward great, publicize it and show what actions were taken, we're all better off. If no one heard anything then that's a problem but the damage is done already, we will be labeled by all our visitors as racists and I doubt we get over it. WORSE YET, IT WILL IMPACT RECRUITING IN ALL SPORTS and threaten our ability to be competitive in any sport, this is not to be taken lightly......
This is potentially a game changer..
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Post by spudbeaver on Feb 21, 2018 20:02:56 GMT -8
All it takes is the accusation, and I'm not taking sides, it's a "he said, she said" situation, and there is virtually no way to reasonably deny it or mitigate it. If it's true, its certainly not who most fans are, if it's false, we are all guilty anyway in the media and the rest of the PAC. Damage done, end of story, truly a pathetic situation. I've never heard anything like this and it seems like someone around this person would come forward if it happened and was heard by others. If someone has come forward great, publicize it and show what actions were taken, we're all better off. If no one heard anything then that's a problem but the damage is done already, we will be labeled by all our visitors as racists and I doubt we get over it. WORSE YET, IT WILL IMPACT RECRUITING IN ALL SPORTS and threaten our ability to be competitive in any sport, this is not to be taken lightly...... This is potentially a game changer.. If it isn't true, I doubt the rest. |
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Feb 21, 2018 20:04:46 GMT -8
During the game or after the game? If during, I say BS since they would be yelling over the beaver bench, someone would have heard it. If after the game, during the handshake line, it would be only slightly more possible. Even if everyone except the alleged fan from that section were to leave immediately you still have the ushers and state troopers in and near the tunnel and if it were to happen on the other end of the bench there is the scorers table.
But, apparently, this is a guilty until proven innocent situation. I would like to hear some corroboration from somebody.
Aren't those all reserved seats on the floor level on both sides of the court? There is a name and contact information for each seat. Should be an easy job to make some calls and find out if there are any witnesses.
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Post by willtalk on Feb 21, 2018 21:20:44 GMT -8
So, FROM THE COURT they heard this, but NOBODY else heard (and nobody said a word). Totally plausible. That’s the allegation. I would consider it implausible too, frankly. But I wasn’t there. Other Beaver fans on this board have said words to the effect of “don’t kid yourself “ and “not surprised at all”. Its also implausible to me to that someone just fabricate such a tale.
So who the f knows? There is a distinct difference between beaverfevers logistical perspective on plausibility and the motivational plausibility that you are referring to. The fact that you can not comprehend why someone would fabricate such a tale is telling. People tend to project their own values and motivation upon others until life experience brings them a rude awakening. Two reasons come to mind, One is the promotion of hidden agenda's. The other is not conscious but simply a distorted sense of reality caused by emotional dysfunctionality. It was very illogical for Simon to draw her fifth foul in the manner that she did. It made no logical sense, yet she still did it. Peoples actions do not always follow a rational course. Sometimes it is temporary and other times it becomes a pattern of behavior. I went into a bit more detail on the " Consquences for accusations" thread. A later poster brought up the potential consequences to recruiting in respect to this issue. That falls into the area of " Hidden agenda". In that case it purely involves a vested interest in the decline of Oregon St. as a competitor for recruits by rival colleges. Some of it might be motivated by jealousy at the success of the WBB program. Another facet of "Hidden Agenda" is motivated by individuals promoting any political or philosophic agenda that might benefit by the divisionary aspect of this issue. |
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Post by Werebeaver on Feb 21, 2018 21:41:38 GMT -8
That’s the allegation. I would consider it implausible too, frankly. But I wasn’t there. Other Beaver fans on this board have said words to the effect of “don’t kid yourself “ and “not surprised at all”. Its also implausible to me to that someone just fabricate such a tale.
So who the f knows? There is a distinct difference between beaverfevers logistical perspective on plausibility and the motivational plausibility that you are referring to. The fact that you can not comprehend why someone would fabricate such a tale is telling. People tend to project their own values and motivation upon others until life experience brings them a rude awakening. Two reasons come to mind, One is the promotion of hidden agenda's. The other is not conscious but simply a distorted sense of reality caused by emotional dysfunctionality. It was very illogical for Simon to draw her fifth foul in the manner that she did. It made no logical sense, yet she still did it. Peoples actions do not always follow a rational course. Sometimes it is temporary and other times it becomes a pattern of behavior. I went into a bit more detail on the " Consquences for accusations" thread. A later poster brought up the potential consequences to recruiting in respect to this issue. That falls into the area of " Hidden agenda". In that case it purely involves a vested interest in the decline of Oregon St. as a competitor for recruits by rival colleges. Some of it might be motivated by jealousy at the success of the WBB program. Another facet of "Hidden Agenda" is motivated by individuals promoting any political or philosophic agenda that might benefit by the divisionary aspect of this issue. Simon didn’t post the allegations. Moore did. I’ll leave the speculation about hidden agendas to you. If it does turn out the allegations were fabricated, USC and Trakh will be the big PR losers, not OSU and Rueck. That is what my “life experience” has taught me. |
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rafer
Sophomore
Posts: 1,640
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Post by rafer on Feb 22, 2018 17:32:51 GMT -8
All it takes is the accusation, and I'm not taking sides, it's a "he said, she said" situation, and there is virtually no way to reasonably deny it or mitigate it. If it's true, its certainly not who most fans are, if it's false, we are all guilty anyway in the media and the rest of the PAC. Damage done, end of story, truly a pathetic situation. I've never heard anything like this and it seems like someone around this person would come forward if it happened and was heard by others. If someone has come forward great, publicize it and show what actions were taken, we're all better off. If no one heard anything then that's a problem but the damage is done already, we will be labeled by all our visitors as racists and I doubt we get over it. WORSE YET, IT WILL IMPACT RECRUITING IN ALL SPORTS and threaten our ability to be competitive in any sport, this is not to be taken lightly...... This is potentially a game changer.. If it isn't true, I doubt the rest. Don't kid yourself, even if false, you can bet that this will be brought up time and again, especially when SC and the Beavs are recruiting the same kids (not that we get a lot of those to Corvallis). If you think otherwise I would strongly disagree, and it will be fodder for all the other PAC schools as well and you can count on it. |
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2ndGenBeaver
Sophomore
Posts: 1,837
Grad Year: 1991 (MS/CS) 1999 (PhD/CS)
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on Feb 22, 2018 17:57:44 GMT -8
Well, other top programs are having issues on this topic this year: Dawn Staley Sues Missouri AD for Slander; SEC Fines HimSouth Carolina women's basketball coach Dawn Staley has sued Missouri's athletic director for slander after he suggested she wanted fans to spit and use racial slurs against his players. Crazy. Go Beavers! |
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