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Post by Werebeaver on Feb 20, 2018 7:08:16 GMT -8
It most certainly does necessarily imply it. It may not prove it but it CLEARLY implies it. If a war veteran who lost his legs adopts a sneering, disgusted expression and says to me "you are BUTT ugly!, and I say in return "Yeah, but at least I'm not half a man" (in line with the reflexive desire to hit back at whatever vulnerability the offender might display), then does that mean or even imply that I'm prejudiced against disabled war veterans? (Let's assume only he and I can hear what I said.) Maybe now you can grasp the concept that words don't always imply "the obvious", but instead reflect a basic reflex that we've all felt and experienced. I’ll just let that post speak for itself. People can judge for themselves what that type of insult says about you. But let’s be clear. There is nothing in the descriptions of the incident on Sunday that indicates any OSU fans were personally insulted during the game by any USC players. So I’m not sure your “example” is well taken. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 7:27:04 GMT -8
If a war veteran who lost his legs adopts a sneering, disgusted expression and says to me "you are BUTT ugly!, and I say in return "Yeah, but at least I'm not half a man" (in line with the reflexive desire to hit back at whatever vulnerability the offender might display), then does that mean or even imply that I'm prejudiced against disabled war veterans? (Let's assume only he and I can hear what I said.) Maybe now you can grasp the concept that words don't always imply "the obvious", but instead reflect a basic reflex that we've all felt and experienced. I’ll just let that post speak for itself. People can judge for themselves what that type of insult says about you. But let’s be clear. There is nothing in the descriptions of the incident on Sunday that indicates any OSU fans were personally insulted during the game by any USC players. So I’m not sure your “example” is well taken. So we should let people judge for themselves what it says about you that you would imply that an entirely hypothetical example that I fabricated says something about me? I'm trying to make clear to YOU that a reflexive response does not necessarily imply anything when you consider the context. You clearly think that my example says something about me, so please explain your reasoning. Is it that I'm not politically correct? Am I obtuse because I fail to consider that there might be some disabled war veteran in the house who might be offended? Are we not allowed to say anything that might trouble even a single person anywhere in the world? What is it that offends you so much? |
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Post by Werebeaver on Feb 20, 2018 7:39:59 GMT -8
I’ll just let that post speak for itself. People can judge for themselves what that type of insult says about you. But let’s be clear. There is nothing in the descriptions of the incident on Sunday that indicates any OSU fans were personally insulted during the game by any USC players. So I’m not sure your “example” is well taken. So we should let people judge for themselves what it says about you that you would imply that an entirely hypothetical example that I fabricated says something about me? I'm trying to make clear to YOU that a reflexive response does not necessarily imply anything when you consider the context. Thats like saying that if someone pisses you off and you shoot them dead that doesn’t make you a violent person because it was just a “reflexive response”. Adults are responsible for their actions. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 7:42:57 GMT -8
So we should let people judge for themselves what it says about you that you would imply that an entirely hypothetical example that I fabricated says something about me? I'm trying to make clear to YOU that a reflexive response does not necessarily imply anything when you consider the context. Thats like saying that if someone pisses you off and you shoot them dead that doesn’t make you a violent person because it was just a “reflexive response”. Adults are responsible for their actions. Bad logic. |
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Post by Werebeaver on Feb 20, 2018 7:54:14 GMT -8
Thats like saying that if someone pisses you off and you shoot them dead that doesn’t make you a violent person because it was just a “reflexive response”. Adults are responsible for their actions. Bad logic. I think it’s an apt analogy. And what if it’s not a “reflexive response”? What if some turd just waits until after the game to spew some racist garbage at a visiting player on her way to the locker room? In that instance what would The excuse be? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 8:01:42 GMT -8
I think it’s an apt analogy. And what if it’s not a “reflexive response”? What if some turd just waits until after the game to spew some racist garbage at a visiting player on her way to the locker room? In that instance what would The excuse be? You're changing the subject. The subject is whether racist language necessarily implies a racist motivation if it is delivered reflexively in response to sneering contempt. I'm not making excuses for anything. Did you think that I was? |
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Post by Werebeaver on Feb 20, 2018 8:14:20 GMT -8
I think it’s an apt analogy. And what if it’s not a “reflexive response”? What if some turd just waits until after the game to spew some racist garbage at a visiting player on her way to the locker room? In that instance what would The excuse be? You're changing the subject. The subject is whether racist language necessarily implies a racist motivation if it is done reflexively in response to open contempt. I'm not making excuses for anything. Did you think that I was? I watched the entire game twice. I didn’t see USC players displaying “open contempt” for anything or anyone during the course of the game. They were just playing basketball and competing. So your dubious premise does not even apply to this situation. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 8:23:28 GMT -8
You're changing the subject. The subject is whether racist language necessarily implies a racist motivation if it is done reflexively in response to open contempt. I'm not making excuses for anything. Did you think that I was? I watched the entire game twice. I didn’t see USC players displaying “open contempt” for anything or anyone during the course of the game. They were just playing basketball and competing. So your dubious premise does not even apply to this situation. My original point was that racist language does not always imply racism in the mind of the deliverer. You failed to see the reason I mention this: People on this BOARD, not in or at the game, seemed to be assuming that racist language always implies racial bias. It's a common error that people make that I was attempting to expose. |
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Post by beaverstever on Feb 20, 2018 8:25:51 GMT -8
I grew up in southern Oregon 30 years ago, and didn't realize at all how much racist garbage I had to unlearn upon arriving at OSU. There was literally no diversity where I grew up, and so no checks and balances on terms used, and I suspect the vast majority of us had no idea the meaning behind them until leaving the area. There was clearly a long history of a racist undercurrent that got passed on to us that had absolutely no interest in perpetuating it. That said, anybody that actually attended OSU has no excused, that was part of my education there - some of it the hard way. dK - I don't really understand how you sat next to somebody dropping racist slurs and didn't promptly head down to the security and ask to have him thrown out of Gill. Even if you didn't want to be confrontational, why not ask Security to discretely deal with it? There's no reason to allow that garbage to go unchecked - if you can't treat student athletes decently, you should lose the privilege of attending in person. I have no idea what's true from the USC post-game, but I agree there certainly should be witnesses if it's true, and they should have dealt with it swiftly as well. I sure hope people aren't letting this slide. I do know there's a woman that screams at the refs all game long that can be easily overheard on the radio broadcasts, and she needs to be checked as well or sent packing. This individual wasn't yelling racist slurs. He was talking to the people he was with. I didn't like it but don't get why I was supposed to turn him into security. For what? Being an asshole? The guy sitting on the other side of me was a tsu fan and he was also an asshole. That makes much more sense now - I understood the slurs were being directed towards opposing players, given the context of the thread. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 8:26:44 GMT -8
Dude in your two examples it may not absolutely mean you're racist, or prejudiced against disabled war veterans, but even "going there" would make you a terribly s%#tty person, which isn't much better/different. In philosophical discourse, no subject is taboo. I clearly presume too much when assuming that people on this board can argue as disinterested philosophers. |
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Post by Werebeaver on Feb 20, 2018 8:45:25 GMT -8
I watched the entire game twice. I didn’t see USC players displaying “open contempt” for anything or anyone during the course of the game. They were just playing basketball and competing. So your dubious premise does not even apply to this situation. My original point was that racist language does not always imply racism in the mind of the deliverer. You failed to see the reason I mention this: People on this BOARD, not in or at the game, seemed to be assuming that racist language always implies racial bias. It's a common error that people make that I was attempting to expose. I didn't realize your original post had no connection or application to the alleged OSU USC basketball game incident. Thanks for clarifying. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 8:49:35 GMT -8
My original point was that racist language does not always imply racism in the mind of the deliverer. You failed to see the reason I mention this: People on this BOARD, not in or at the game, seemed to be assuming that racist language always implies racial bias. It's a common error that people make that I was attempting to expose. I didn't realize your original post had no connection or application to the alleged OSU USC basketball game incident. Thanks for clarifying. No problem! If it turns out that the original comment by the heckler was not actually racist, but that the USC players came back and started accusing the heckler of being racist, and THEN racial slurs got thrown around because the hecklers were trying to (reflexively) hit back, THEN this whole theme may have some relevance to the incident: The heckler might, just possibly, not be a true racist. Lots of people would be offended by being unfairly called a racist, so some use of inflammatory language in response may have some other explanation that simple racism. I do NOT condone racial slurs, regardless, and I think anyone who said anything like that, or even used hurtful profanity against opposing players, should be banned from Gill. |
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Post by greshambeaver on Feb 20, 2018 10:11:30 GMT -8
I think it’s an apt analogy. And what if it’s not a “reflexive response”? What if some turd just waits until after the game to spew some racist garbage at a visiting player on her way to the locker room? In that instance what would The excuse be? Not that it will make a lot of difference in this entirely monotonous thread, but I have to agree with "squonk" totally on this issue. If someone yelled a racist statement at a USC player after the game, the player has every right to be incensed... None of the rest of this makes any sense and most of the analogies are just plain off the mark. Being immature in her own right the USC victim should make a statement that it was one or two misguided fools and not the entire OSU fan base. I'm not sure I am following all of this "not sure I should have to follow, all of this"; but on the war veteran scenario, the better response would be "Please don't take your anger out on me"..... |
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Feb 20, 2018 16:08:13 GMT -8
It was on the eugene news tonight that OSU is investigating the incident but nothing else.
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Post by obf on Feb 20, 2018 22:58:26 GMT -8
Not totally Off Topic.... but definitely tangential... be warned stream of consciousness without much of a point coming, it's been a long day  ... The "N-Word" is strange. I can not think of another single word that is even close to as taboo or has as much of a stigma, yet it pervades our society and lexicon. It is also strange in that it is verboten only when used by certain people, and then only when used in certain circumstances and contexts. Further the meaning and usage of the word has completely and utterly changed over the last generation and then again the generation before that, there was a time when everybody, even a person of color would be very careful and selective when using the word, but now it is more common than many prepositions, it is in fact USED many times as a preposition... As the father of a teenager, I am confronted by this word A LOT. Not used by my teen, but constantly coursing through their headphones and speakers. The paradox is to the point where they sing along to the song, but self censor the n-word (quick aside... why do we think substituting "the n-word" is better than using the actual word? Now we are just putting the onus on the reader to insert the actual word in their minds or not...). Even though in most of the raps it is just used as a rhyming device, with no ill will or racism attached for either singer or listener, yet the societal prohibition on this word is so strong and embedded, even in a teen, that it gets cut out when singing along. As I workout every morning at the gym there is often a buddy of mine there, he happens to be black, and many times there is loud rap music playing, so of course the n-word is floating through the air, no one seems to notice or mind. We are both often humming and bobbing our heads along with the music, again no one cares or minds, I do wonder what would happen though if in my sleepy state (I work out early), or while concentrating on a lift and not what I am carelessly half singing along to I let a n-word slip through. Would the black acquaintance notice? Would it upset him? Would it be noticed or would it upset any of the other white gym goers? To try to bring this all back to the situation at hand... If someone used a racial slur towards a USC player, for whatever reason, or in any context (not buying the "reactionary" hypothetical either) they should be banned for life from Gill. Clearly the use of the n-word is never ok when it's being used as a put down... ANY WORD is not a word that is OK when being used as a put down... You can honestly and even angrily express you displeasure without being an insulting jerk. The context here is clear, an angry racial epithet is never appropriate. I am just saying, words are weird man, and the n-word is the weirdest of them all... |
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