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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Oct 17, 2016 21:35:39 GMT -8
wilkyisdashiznit - I don't think they're ridiculous. I think she stated her opinion, and I don't think she was talking about performance on the field. I'm not entirely sure what her role has always been inside the athletic department, but I do know she received her masters in student development and counseling. I think her perspective is squarely on what happens with the kids off the field and how he coaches...not the results that stem from that coaching. That GA is beloved by his players and a master motivator is not something that is surprising to me. All accounts have the football program improving in academics and off field incidents....those are the things likely to make an impression on Ms. Vydra. If I was ranking OSU RBs in my lifetime, I'd have Simonton at the top of my list, even though he's probably 4th or 5th in terms of physical ability. Is he a better RB than Steven Jackson? No, but he's had the most impact at OSU in my opinion and that puts him at the top of my list. I'm a little surprised at how little weight her comments were given by this board, given her position in the athletic department and the length of time she's been at OSU First, both Jackson and Simonton were excellent running backs. However, Jackson was a better running back than Simonton. Simonton did not carry himself right and seemed to disappear in big games. Jackson was a punishing huge back that never had the team around him that Simonton had. The fact that Simonton was the best running back on the best team since the 60s does not make him the best running back anymore than the running back who has the most Super Bowl rings is the best running back in NFL history. What you are saying is that you ignore the coaching football aspect of being a football coach and in that way CGA can be the best football coach. I disagree. I am not saying that CGA cannot be the best football coach in Oregon State history (I sincerely doubt it but would loved to be proven wrong), but I am saying that based on CGA's 4-14 start it is ridiculous to say that he is the best coach.
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Post by biggieorange on Oct 18, 2016 6:59:57 GMT -8
You are so full of crap. Marianne has been working with GA for 1.5 years - I'd say her opinion counts for more than someone who claims all of his insider info from talking to players at team hotels. I too have butt heads with baseba1111 . He can definitely be confrontational. But he has also clearly shown he knows a thing or two about football. Sometimes it pays to read past perceived attitude on the board and analyze content. I will say this, at least baseba1111 provides content, regardless of how he presents it. Crapping on a post but providing nothing of substance in return isn't overly positive either. Lastly, I am not saying I necessarily believe baseball and the team hotel talk... but I have in the past talked to ALOT of players when I went back to school. in my experience, players have zero problems talking to any random Joe about a whole wide range of things related to football. I was always a huge fan of Brennan Olander. that guy was a crack up, had very strong opinions about what bowl game provided the best gift baskets, and yes, was probably dumb enough to buy a mountain bike off craigslist for $50 and think absolutely nothing of it... So I guess what I am saying, is it is that that improbable to be chatting up players. it is actually pretty easy. Exactly, back in my day.... Seriously though I had been on campus for like a hot minute and met Kenny Simonton. Seriously it was my first trip to the OSU bookstore and there he is in the small parking lot this is like 1999. And he talked to me for like 10 minutes about a bunch of stuff, mainly the women walking around in shorts, but still.
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Post by biggieorange on Oct 18, 2016 7:12:45 GMT -8
"... now that they have recruiting and strength conditioning back to where it was... they (Wisky) are close to where they were..." A not so subtle jab. And GA came here and pointed out how weak our players were and how they needed to get stronger (and they have). As pointed out in another post, Nebraska has commented how improved their players are under Riley's strength program. I am certainly not doing a bit a research on it, but I would bet you similar comments have recently been made at Miami. Next year you'll hear how much stronger LSU players are, etc etc etc.
It's almost as if when a new coach comes in that is a common theme. And maybe you read into the comment just a bit too much?
As for the comments regarding "best coach at OSU since 92" I noted that comment in a thread last week and mentioned it was no doubt premature. However, she is not only AD staff to praise GA and what he's doing here. He has the full backing of the AD. And contrary to all our opinions, they are employed by the OSU AD, and we are not. They have a bit more inside knowledge than any of us.
Another note...I believe you're one of the fans who was so pissed we showed no improvement over last year. Well, I am not sure what you've been watching the last two weeks but this team is improving, especially on defense! Obviously we have some issues at QB. But From Game 1 to game 6 there has been steady improvement. But, you've made up your mind regarding GA. So no sense in discussing that further.
In regards to strength and conditioning, here is my 2 cents. In my experience, the change in workouts, specific muscle building exercises will do more for overall strength than trying to hit some idealized "max" number. I think that is why you might see under a staff change followed by an immediate improvement and difference, --->guys are on a totally different program that has stressed they muscle strength, endurance, and memory. They might not be great at hitting a certain benchmark (squatting 500 lbs) but you can't judge strength on that alone. I was mainly a BB play for example, I would squat 375 lbs and was usually ~190 lbs. I would not be mistaken for a Olineman. 1 rep max doesn't really mean spit. I wasn't some beast out there, I was a very good leaper, but plenty of guys I played against were stronger. I took my fitness seriously, in reality I would have had a much better BB career if I had just been as serious about ball handling (6'2" guards being a dime a dozen). I don't think OSU football this year is weak, they are young and thin and wear out cause the OFFENSE SUCKS. My BIG issue with the old staff was how Riley gave reps to ONLY the 1st team and when one guy would get injured or was having a bad game, his backup was generally a f%#*ing disaster out there partially because they hadn't got any reps IMHO. That said, as BAD as the QB play was, CAL and Utah have given me SOME hope that Andersen isn't totally pants on head stupid. The team is competing. Don't get me wrong, I am not actually attending games or watching them live (I just watch replays), because why do that to yourself? I have actively planned other things during the Saturdays, save the Civil War. This weekend I am headed to VEGAS, gonna take in a show, play some blackjack, check the scores later in the night.
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Post by atownbeaver on Oct 18, 2016 7:15:10 GMT -8
That GA is beloved by his players and a master motivator is not something that is surprising to me. All accounts have the football program improving in academics and off field incidents....those are the things likely to make an impression on Ms. Vydra. If I was ranking OSU RBs in my lifetime, I'd have Simonton at the top of my list, even though he's probably 4th or 5th in terms of physical ability. Is he a better RB than Steven Jackson? No, but he's had the most impact at OSU in my opinion and that puts him at the top of my list. This is great stuff. It is great stuff because it really highlights the multiple ways a person approaches evaluating things. You are very likely putting high value into the nostalgia that Simonton gives you. A key figure in OSU rising out of the basement. his OT run to win the Civil war. Some of his electrifying runs, and bouncing off that USC LB... But, Jackson, Bernard and Quizz were all better running backs. in skill, in stats and in outcomes. You even mention it, he is probably 4th or 5th in terms of physical ability. I might even put him lower. I think guys Storm Woods recently and even now with Ryan Nall were both far more physically gifted. Poor Storm could never stay healthy. But Simonton bubbles to the top because of what he represented, far more than what he actually did. And it isn't like what he did wasn't impressive on its own rights. On the other side, I also think it highlights the amazing power of personality. the cult of personality and why a demagogue is a thing. People are inspired and attracted to those that represent ideals they like... Even if those ideal are just words. The fact the person is saying them is enough. I think Andersen really does resonate with a lot of people on an ideological level. They have bought into "the process". But he has about zero outcome to back that up. So that is where we are at. a person making a claim on ideology, not necessarily an objective look at what is there.
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Post by nabeav on Oct 18, 2016 7:47:18 GMT -8
I also value the fact that Simonton was able to put up good numbers for four seasons, whereas we got two good years of Jackson and 3 good years of Bernard and Quizz. Plus, as you put it, Simonton had none of the physical tools the other guys had, and yet he still got it done. To me, that makes him an intelligent football player that knows how to play. It's why Mike Hass has to be at the top of any list of greatest wide receivers for me, because he wasn't a physical specimen with blazing speed, he was quite literally our only offensive weapon 2004 (We had Joe Newton too, but our RBs were Dwight Wright and Ryan Cole and the other wide receavers were Marcel Love, Anthony Wheat-Brown, and George Gillett. And yet he still had 86 receptions for 1379 and 7 TDs. Everyone we faced knew we were throwing it to him, and he still torched people. The next year, we added a fully functional RB in Bernard, went to a new QB (Moore) and he caught 90 passes for 1532 and 6 TDs.
Interestingly enough, almost all of our stars of the past decade had disappointing (by their standards) senior seasons. Hass and Wheaton are the only two who put up bigger numbers as seniors. Cooks was lights out as a junior, but had he come back, it would've been pretty ahrd to replicate his 2013 season, which is one of the best ever in the conference. Jackson, Quizz, Bernard, Simonton....all of them dipped in their final season.
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Post by beavineugene on Oct 18, 2016 7:58:45 GMT -8
What is killing me right now is that there's another thread on this board where someone suggested that anti-GA people should leave this message board and find their own place to spew their opinions, but when a 20 year athletic department veteran voices support for GA, people are like "she doesn't know what she's talking about." nabeav, I like you. You have some great opinions, and you back it up with a good amount of facts. But to ATown's point, is Anderson the best coach in Oregon State history? Better than Norcross (undefeated, untied, and unscored upon in year 2), Stewart (last undefeated Oregon State team was in his year 2), Schissler (7-2 in year two. Best team north of Stanford. 7-1 in year three with a 29-0 win over Marquette in Marquette), Stiner (Ironmen in year 1. Tie against the 1931 and 1932 national champion Trojans and win over Fordham at the Polo Grounds.), Prothro (Pacific Coast Conference champions and Rose Bowl in year 2), and Andros (7-3 in year two. Best team north of Los Angeles. Giant Killers in year 3)? Or would you agree that Vydra's comments are "ridiculous?" Putting Riley and Erickson (11-1 and Fiesta Bowl champions. Best Oregon State team in the poll era in year 2.) aside, I think that Vydra's comments are demonstrably false. But I would listen, if you thought that they were true. When did this become about Best OSU Coach in OSU History? Her comment said "since I've been here" which was 1992. You're going way to deep into the record book for this.
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Post by biggieorange on Oct 18, 2016 8:18:41 GMT -8
nabeav, I like you. You have some great opinions, and you back it up with a good amount of facts. But to ATown's point, is Anderson the best coach in Oregon State history? Better than Norcross (undefeated, untied, and unscored upon in year 2), Stewart (last undefeated Oregon State team was in his year 2), Schissler (7-2 in year two. Best team north of Stanford. 7-1 in year three with a 29-0 win over Marquette in Marquette), Stiner (Ironmen in year 1. Tie against the 1931 and 1932 national champion Trojans and win over Fordham at the Polo Grounds.), Prothro (Pacific Coast Conference champions and Rose Bowl in year 2), and Andros (7-3 in year two. Best team north of Los Angeles. Giant Killers in year 3)? Or would you agree that Vydra's comments are "ridiculous?" Putting Riley and Erickson (11-1 and Fiesta Bowl champions. Best Oregon State team in the poll era in year 2.) aside, I think that Vydra's comments are demonstrably false. But I would listen, if you thought that they were true. When did this become about Best OSU Coach in OSU History? Her comment said "since I've been here" which was 1992. You're going way to deep into the record book for this. He also did it on bad teams, and teams with a total losing history. --->That matters.
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Post by orangeattack on Oct 18, 2016 8:41:33 GMT -8
I also value the fact that Simonton was able to put up good numbers for four seasons, whereas we got two good years of Jackson and 3 good years of Bernard and Quizz. Plus, as you put it, Simonton had none of the physical tools the other guys had, and yet he still got it done. To me, that makes him an intelligent football player that knows how to play. It's why Mike Hass has to be at the top of any list of greatest wide receivers for me, because he wasn't a physical specimen with blazing speed, he was quite literally our only offensive weapon 2004 (We had Joe Newton too, but our RBs were Dwight Wright and Ryan Cole and the other wide receavers were Marcel Love, Anthony Wheat-Brown, and George Gillett. And yet he still had 86 receptions for 1379 and 7 TDs. Everyone we faced knew we were throwing it to him, and he still torched people. The next year, we added a fully functional RB in Bernard, went to a new QB (Moore) and he caught 90 passes for 1532 and 6 TDs. Interestingly enough, almost all of our stars of the past decade had disappointing (by their standards) senior seasons. Hass and Wheaton are the only two who put up bigger numbers as seniors. Cooks was lights out as a junior, but had he come back, it would've been pretty ahrd to replicate his 2013 season, which is one of the best ever in the conference. Jackson, Quizz, Bernard, Simonton....all of them dipped in their final season. This is the difference between "most talented" and "greatest". Accomplishments take being in the right place at the right time. Example: Charles White vs. Marcus Allen
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Oct 18, 2016 15:02:10 GMT -8
I also value the fact that Simonton was able to put up good numbers for four seasons, whereas we got two good years of Jackson and 3 good years of Bernard and Quizz. Plus, as you put it, Simonton had none of the physical tools the other guys had, and yet he still got it done. To me, that makes him an intelligent football player that knows how to play. It's why Mike Hass has to be at the top of any list of greatest wide receivers for me, because he wasn't a physical specimen with blazing speed, he was quite literally our only offensive weapon 2004 (We had Joe Newton too, but our RBs were Dwight Wright and Ryan Cole and the other wide receavers were Marcel Love, Anthony Wheat-Brown, and George Gillett. And yet he still had 86 receptions for 1379 and 7 TDs. Everyone we faced knew we were throwing it to him, and he still torched people. The next year, we added a fully functional RB in Bernard, went to a new QB (Moore) and he caught 90 passes for 1532 and 6 TDs. Interestingly enough, almost all of our stars of the past decade had disappointing (by their standards) senior seasons. Hass and Wheaton are the only two who put up bigger numbers as seniors. Cooks was lights out as a junior, but had he come back, it would've been pretty ahrd to replicate his 2013 season, which is one of the best ever in the conference. Jackson, Quizz, Bernard, Simonton....all of them dipped in their final season. This is the difference between "most talented" and "greatest". Accomplishments take being in the right place at the right time. Example: Charles White vs. Marcus Allen College or pro comparison? In college, White played on better USC teams and had the luxury of not playing behind White, like Allen did. In the pros, the real difference between the two is that White had a cocaine addiction, and Allen did not.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Oct 18, 2016 15:21:58 GMT -8
nabeav, I like you. You have some great opinions, and you back it up with a good amount of facts. But to ATown's point, is Anderson the best coach in Oregon State history? Better than Norcross (undefeated, untied, and unscored upon in year 2), Stewart (last undefeated Oregon State team was in his year 2), Schissler (7-2 in year two. Best team north of Stanford. 7-1 in year three with a 29-0 win over Marquette in Marquette), Stiner (Ironmen in year 1. Tie against the 1931 and 1932 national champion Trojans and win over Fordham at the Polo Grounds.), Prothro (Pacific Coast Conference champions and Rose Bowl in year 2), and Andros (7-3 in year two. Best team north of Los Angeles. Giant Killers in year 3)? Or would you agree that Vydra's comments are "ridiculous?" Putting Riley and Erickson (11-1 and Fiesta Bowl champions. Best Oregon State team in the poll era in year 2.) aside, I think that Vydra's comments are demonstrably false. But I would listen, if you thought that they were true. When did this become about Best OSU Coach in OSU History? Her comment said "since I've been here" which was 1992. You're going way to deep into the record book for this. Sorry, someone turned it into the best coach in OSU history. You are right. 18 games into Riley I, Oregon State was 7-11 with close losses to Stanford, Arizona State, and USC, a 42 point win over Nevada, a win over Baylor, Oregon State's first win at Stanford in 30 years, and Oregon State's best seven-game start in 30 years. Oddly, game 19 was also a road game against Washington, which the Beavers lost on a drop on a two-point conversion. 18 games into Erickson, Oregon State was 12-6 with the first bowl game in almost 35 years and the best start since the 1964 Rose Bowl year. 18 games into Riley II, Oregon State was 9-9 with its biggest bowl win in team history and a 28-point win over a top 25 team. Game 19 was also a road game against Washington. Oregon State won in Seattle for the first time in 19 years in 2004 and it was the most lopsided win in Seattle in more than 30 years. 18 games into CGA, Oregon State is 4-14. Demonstrably, again, no CGA is arguably the worst coach since Pettibone (2-15-1 his first 18 with a Civil War win) based on his on-field results. However, as someone pointed out, perhaps her focus is on off-field results. Potentially, I could see how someone could say that he is a better leader of young men than Erickson or Riley, but I do not know how you could point to anything on the field and say, yeah, I like this much more than how Riley I, Erickson, or Riley II did things.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Oct 18, 2016 16:17:32 GMT -8
I also value the fact that Simonton was able to put up good numbers for four seasons, whereas we got two good years of Jackson and 3 good years of Bernard and Quizz. Plus, as you put it, Simonton had none of the physical tools the other guys had, and yet he still got it done. To me, that makes him an intelligent football player that knows how to play. It's why Mike Hass has to be at the top of any list of greatest wide receivers for me, because he wasn't a physical specimen with blazing speed, he was quite literally our only offensive weapon 2004 (We had Joe Newton too, but our RBs were Dwight Wright and Ryan Cole and the other wide receavers were Marcel Love, Anthony Wheat-Brown, and George Gillett. And yet he still had 86 receptions for 1379 and 7 TDs. Everyone we faced knew we were throwing it to him, and he still torched people. The next year, we added a fully functional RB in Bernard, went to a new QB (Moore) and he caught 90 passes for 1532 and 6 TDs. Interestingly enough, almost all of our stars of the past decade had disappointing (by their standards) senior seasons. Hass and Wheaton are the only two who put up bigger numbers as seniors. Cooks was lights out as a junior, but had he come back, it would've been pretty ahrd to replicate his 2013 season, which is one of the best ever in the conference. Jackson, Quizz, Bernard, Simonton....all of them dipped in their final season. I think you have a very valid point, but you just are not making it. I will go ahead and make it for you. Ken Simonton is the all-time leading rusher in Oregon State history in yards and touchdowns. He was second all-time to Charles White in the Pac-10, when he graduated, and only has slid to third in the Pac-12 since. And he still holds the Pac-12 record in rushing touchdowns. That is impressive. He certainly accomplished a lot in his time at Oregon State, particularly as you say he did not have the physical tools that the other guys had. I would argue that he was very much a system running back. He fit in well in the Erickson system. Jackson fit in even better to the Erickson system, but he only had the opportunity to play for two years in the Erickson system, whereas Simonton had three years. So, Jackson is not the best running back because Erickson decided to bolt to the NFL? Is that fair? As OA said above, accomplishments take being in the right place at the right time. Simonton was in the right place at the right time. Jackson was and then Erickson left. You could see that he did not pick up the Riley system very well and his statistics dipped, as you mentioned. Jackson is the all-time single season leader in rushing yards and tied with Simonton for most touchdowns. When he left early, that was sixth all time in Pac-10 history. That has subsequently slipped to 21st since. Simonton had a worse team around him in 2001. It is exactly the opposite of Hass. When he was the focal point of the offense, Hass shined. When he was the focal point of the offense, Simonton melted. Jackson never really adjusted to Riley's zone blocking scheme and got inside of his own head too much. He turned very tentative and danced too much. The less cerebral Erickson offense was where he excelled. Bernard got hurt in the second quarter of the Stanford game (missing the second half and the entire USC game) and the Washington State game (missing the second half and the entire Civil War) in 2007. Playing in the equivalent of 10 games (as opposed to the 13 the year before), he only finished 93 yards short of his 2006 total. Had he played in all 13 games, he was on pace to eclipse Simonton's 2000 total for second all time in Oregon State history. Quizz' sophomore season was with Canfield. Quizz' junior season was with Katz. James Rodgers was hurt in the Boise State game, missing the Arizona State game and then was knocked out for the rest of the year in the Arizona game. A sophomore, Markus Wheaton became the primary receiving threat. Joe Halahuni, Jordan Bishop, and Aaron Nichols made up the rest of the starting receiving corps. Jackson's 2003 campaign, Bernard's 2007 campaign, and Quizz' 2010 campaign were each better than Simonton's 2001 campaign.
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Post by seastape on Oct 18, 2016 18:52:10 GMT -8
One thing that makes me favor Simonton over other backs is based largely on what I have read. From what I read, Simonton came to a program that was in the dumps but had hopes that its new coach could turn it around. Simonton arrived and quickly became a leader on the team and was a player that bought into and sold other players on the new direction the team was taking. You cannot say enough about a guy that makes other athletes around him better, and that is the impression that I have always had of Simonton.
I am not sold on the "Simonton was on better teams than other backs" theme that I am seeing on this thread. Simonton played on two winning teams and two losing teams and still racked up great statistics. He suffered his senior year when, if I recall correctly, the offense lost seven (7) starters, including three OL (Sykes, Cornell, and White), TE (Maurer) (and backup blocking TE B. Johnson), and 3 WRs (C. Johnson, Prescott and Houshmandzadeh). Not exactly a recipe for the "Heismonton." He still hit near the 1000 yard mark in 11 games but missed out in the downpour in eugene when the yucks made stopping him their #1 priority.
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Post by baseba1111 on Oct 18, 2016 19:01:25 GMT -8
Ya have to love how threads evolve on here!!!! Often have to scroll back to the top just to see what the hell the topic was... LOL
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Post by beavineugene on Oct 19, 2016 8:24:52 GMT -8
Sorry, someone turned it into the best coach in OSU history. You are right. 18 games into Riley I, Oregon State was 7-11 with close losses to Stanford, Arizona State, and USC, a 42 point win over Nevada, a win over Baylor, Oregon State's first win at Stanford in 30 years, and Oregon State's best seven-game start in 30 years. Oddly, game 19 was also a road game against Washington, which the Beavers lost on a drop on a two-point conversion. 18 games into CGA, Oregon State is 4-14. Demonstrably, again, no CGA is arguably the worst coach since Pettibone (2-15-1 his first 18 with a Civil War win) based on his on-field results. However, as someone pointed out, perhaps her focus is on off-field results. Potentially, I could see how someone could say that he is a better leader of young men than Erickson or Riley, but I do not know how you could point to anything on the field and say, yeah, I like this much more than how Riley I, Erickson, or Riley II did things. Just for the sake of proving things aren't as bad as they seem. Riley I was 7-11 vs GAs 4-14 through 18 games. However Riley I did not play at Michigan (an eventual top 25 team in 2015), at Minnesota, or host a top 25 Boise St team in OOC play. Instead in 1997 OSU played N. Texas (4-7), San Jose St (4-7), and Utah St (6-6). In 1998 OSU played Baylor (2-9), Nevada (6-5), and at Utah St (3-8). None of those teams were good. I am going to go out on a limb and say if GA played 5 home OOC games with only one road game vs. teams equal to those. He too is 7-11 and not 4-14. But, GA faced a much more difficult schedule.
You noted the close losses in Riley I. Fair enough, I'd counter with a close loss to a top 25 team in Utah and a close loss at Minnesota to start the year, I'd even throw in the CW in 2015 as a close loss.
Yes, if you look only at Ws/Ls GA is worse to date over 18 games. If you look deeper into those Ws/Ls, well maybe things aren't that much different. Plus, as I've pointed out GAs off field results appear to be better than Riley I, Erickson, or Riley II.
I'll keep saying it, give GA time. Judge him after CW 2017, not now.
Erickson and Riley II IMO are not fair comparisons. DE took over a program on the rise in 1999. And Riley II took over a program that DE took new levels and was still building. And while I admit it wasn't 2-10 bad, GA took over an OSU program on the decline in 2015.
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Post by beavineugene on Oct 19, 2016 8:53:02 GMT -8
Simonton had a worse team around him in 2001. It is exactly the opposite of Hass. When he was the focal point of the offense, Hass shined. When he was the focal point of the offense, Simonton melted.WOW, just WOW.
You're really good at nit picking stats to prove your points (ok, we all guilty of that!). Simonton lost how many starters vs. the 2000 team? Simonton "melted" in 2001 due to horrible O-Line Play, and the fact that the WRs Smith was throwing to went from Chad Johnson, TJ, and Robert Prescot. To Shawn Kitner, Seth Trimmer, and Josh Hawkins. All teams had to do was "stop" Simonton and they shut us down. And he still damn near had his 1000 yard season. Its complete BS to say he melted. Its a minor miracle Simonton and Smith lead OSU to 5-6 with what they had around them on offense in 2001. And they damn near beat uo in the CW (we all know that Punt Return, was broke due to an illegal block in the back!). Not to mention in 2001 Simonton had some Freshman named Steven Jackson who got a lot of work and took carries away from Kenny.
Compared to Hass, well Hass had Bernard who has you noted put up a good year on the ground in 2005. Teams could not just load up on Hass and stop the Beavers. They had to respect the run as well. No one respected the 2001 Beavers passing attack.
Saying Simonton Melted in 2001 as the focal point is pure BS.
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