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Post by beaverology on Dec 26, 2022 10:41:29 GMT -8
"why the hell did they do another Anderson Contract."?
WT was rewarded for giving Beaver Nation the greatest MBB season in their lifetime.
Winning the Pac12 tournament (with USC/UCLA in the conference) and making it to the NCAA Elite 8 in the same season won't be done again anytime soon.
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Post by nuclearbeaver on Dec 26, 2022 10:52:03 GMT -8
"why the hell did they do another Anderson Contract."? WT was rewarded for giving Beaver Nation the greatest MBB season in their lifetime. Winning the Pac12 tournament (with USC/UCLA in the conference) and making it to the NCAA Elite 8 in the same season won't be done again anytime soon. A contract that gives you no option to fire someone due to poor performance is a terrible contract for the employer. |
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Post by beaverinohio on Dec 26, 2022 11:14:59 GMT -8
Disingenuous or dishonest? What would you call saying Oregon State finished 6th in 2019-20 and 1st in 2020-21 when they finished T-8th and T-6th. We all know the Beavers won the conference tournament in 2020-21, so why use the conference regular season finish every season except that one. It really doesn’t help your argument when you play fast and loose like that. I know that there is a counter-argument, and you made it. I put up the best argument first, so you and nuclear could pick at it. My primary argument is that most seasons, Oregon State is "consistently competitive," contrary to any assertion made by nuclear. You seem to be deep into basketball, Ohio, so I enjoy your posts. And nuclear has points. But the data does not seem to support several of nuclear's more outlandish points. Tinkle is an above average coach at a school with below average support. Absent a huge infusion of cash into the program or a shakeup in the AD's office, I do not see upgrading at head coach to be probable. Nuclear would have probably been on the fire George Washington bus during the Revolutionary War. Charles Lee! Brilliant! I really was just pointing out the “errors” in your post and that doing that knowingly doesn’t help your argument. As you know, I’m not a big Tinkle fan and don’t agree with the “with our resources he’s the best we can do” argument. That said, he’s the coach now, and I believe he will be the coach next year. And I think he’s done a pretty good job putting this team together and coaching it. They’ve got some potential and some decent or better foundational pieces on which to build if they stick around. Best of all they actually seem to like each other and playing together. That shows and I’ve enjoyed watching them and I find them easy to root for. So I have no desire to rehash the pros or cons of Tinkle and his record. Just keeping you honest, that’s all. |
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Post by Judge Smails on Dec 26, 2022 11:26:16 GMT -8
"why the hell did they do another Anderson Contract."? WT was rewarded for giving Beaver Nation the greatest MBB season in their lifetime. Winning the Pac12 tournament (with USC/UCLA in the conference) and making it to the NCAA Elite 8 in the same season won't be done again anytime soon. A contract that gives you no option to fire someone due to poor performance is a terrible contract for the employer. There’s always an option to fire with enough $$$$$ |
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Post by nuclearbeaver on Dec 26, 2022 11:35:01 GMT -8
probably, he was terrible tell after Valley Forge then he threaded a needle, got a few victories and mostly waited the British out. That was also warfare and not college basketball You must be a lawyer. Say I'm disingenuous while putting out disingenuous data and arguement then acting like it was all a master plan when it was a silly arguement. Hyperbole, hearsay, objection! Using hollow compliments to Ohio that make it sound like he is normally knowledgeable but seems to be staying since he challenged you. Implying I don't know basketball cause I disagree. Gross We should invest the cash. There's plenty of coaches getting paid 2.5-3 million a year that get better results than WT. Get a good coach and upgrade the recruiting budget to 7-9 million a year. Winning 20+ games a year will cover the cost. Your last paragraph is your best. Winning 20+ games a year is next-to-impossible without oil oligarch-level funding, though. Get that financing plan and a new coach into place, though, and I am on board. First paragraph: Washington's strategy was impeccable. It can be compared and contrasted to the Duke of Wellington's defense of the Iberian Peninsula (great strategy), Russia's defense in Napoleon's 1812 Invasion (great strategy), General Houston's defense of Texas during the Texas War of Independence (great strategy), General Santa Anna's aggressive defense of Mexico (poor strategy), the aggressive strategy employed by Davis and Lee in the Civil War, and the American strategy after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Heck, you can still see it in the Ukrainian defense against Russia. Discretion is the better part of valor. Second paragraph: My argument is not disingenuous. It is the best argument that I believe that I can make with a straight face, as they say in law. My argument is not counter-factual. Ohio can and did point out the best counter-argument, pointing out that I am amplifying some facts at the expense of others, which is great. Good on him. I don't argue that you don't know basketball nuclear. I just find your 30,000-foot argument to be contrary to the evidence, which implies that any sub-arguments are similarly ill-founded. An overarching argument based on a foundation built of solid sub-arguments is best. It is much more difficult to combat. Here, I can cut off the head, and the rest of the snake dies with it. 1) Not true. SDSU, Xavier, UConn, Wisconsin, Creighton, Butler are all examples of schools with budgets within striking distance of us but get 20+ wins regularly. UConn and Butler have had some spans of less than 20 but they consistently perform better than our elite 8 year. An extra 1-2 million goes along way in basketball. 2) this is college basketball not war. Cool work quoting some dates but your hypothetical was based in the time of the revolution. Washington spent a year retreating (cleverly) and years maneuvering. He was widely mocked for the first 2-3 years of the war and was not well supported by the continental Congress or the people of the colonies. Once he got some wins people realized he was creating the modern template for how to take on a super power. Still has nothing to do with basketball. 3) Annoying people until they stop talking to you isn't winning. We all cherry pick data but when caught you should try admitting it and moving on not jargoning us to death. |
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Post by alwaysorange on Dec 26, 2022 11:51:54 GMT -8
So lets assume over the next three years we play at 500 in the pac12 and without ucla and usc around in a couple years that's likely three yearly losses not on the record. At what time do you either extend the contract (for supposed recruiting purposes) or fire tinkle and eat the last couple of years)?
or would some of you be elated with 500 pac12 basketball. Seeing how his overall pac12 record isn't close to 500 maybe you would really be elated with 500.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Dec 26, 2022 12:25:56 GMT -8
Which is cheaper and more likely to produce a higher degree of success?
Fire our existing IndyCar driver, pay off his contract and pony up the bucks to bring in Michael Andretti to drive our Ford Pinto around the track against the other IndyCars - or pony up for a better car that can compete with the others and see how our current driver actually does when given a comparable machine to operate for part of the remainder of his contract before eating the entire contract?
OSU has been doing it on the cheap for years. Oregon's, Utah's, and UCLA's basketball budgets were nearly 3.5-4 million bucks higher than ours, Arizona's over 8 million higher, in that 20/21 season I linked earlier, and it wasn't all coaching salaries. You want big and consistent results you need to give your driver a vehicle that can compete. Some people don't seem to understand that.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen Gonzaga come up as an example of success at an improbable school. Well, Few likely makes less than Tinkle, but their basketball budget is nearly double ours. They made other investments beyond coaching to get where they are today.
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Post by nuclearbeaver on Dec 26, 2022 12:28:43 GMT -8
So lets assume over the next three years we play at 500 in the pac12 and without ucla and usc around in a couple years that's likely three yearly losses not on the record. At what time do you either extend the contract (for supposed recruiting purposes) or fire tinkle and eat the last couple of years)? or would some of you be elated with 500 pac12 basketball. Seeing how his overall pac12 record isn't close to 500 maybe you would really be elated with 500. At this point they are better off dumping an extra million into the budget for recruiting and sitting until his contract is up. He will either be successful enough to justify an extension or we can move on without paying 3 million+ and also trying to attract a new coach. As for when he deserves an extension, when he is performing to the same standard as coaches that get paid as much as him with the same resources. Give him a 6-7 million budget and see what he can do. Personally I don't think it will beich different but atleast the excuse goes away and we hopefully have a better base of talent for the next guy. |
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Dec 26, 2022 13:52:51 GMT -8
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Dec 26, 2022 13:59:36 GMT -8
Your last paragraph is your best. Winning 20+ games a year is next-to-impossible without oil oligarch-level funding, though. Get that financing plan and a new coach into place, though, and I am on board. First paragraph: Washington's strategy was impeccable. It can be compared and contrasted to the Duke of Wellington's defense of the Iberian Peninsula (great strategy), Russia's defense in Napoleon's 1812 Invasion (great strategy), General Houston's defense of Texas during the Texas War of Independence (great strategy), General Santa Anna's aggressive defense of Mexico (poor strategy), the aggressive strategy employed by Davis and Lee in the Civil War, and the American strategy after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Heck, you can still see it in the Ukrainian defense against Russia. Discretion is the better part of valor. Second paragraph: My argument is not disingenuous. It is the best argument that I believe that I can make with a straight face, as they say in law. My argument is not counter-factual. Ohio can and did point out the best counter-argument, pointing out that I am amplifying some facts at the expense of others, which is great. Good on him. I don't argue that you don't know basketball nuclear. I just find your 30,000-foot argument to be contrary to the evidence, which implies that any sub-arguments are similarly ill-founded. An overarching argument based on a foundation built of solid sub-arguments is best. It is much more difficult to combat. Here, I can cut off the head, and the rest of the snake dies with it. 1) Not true. SDSU, Xavier, UConn, Wisconsin, Creighton, Butler are all examples of schools with budgets within striking distance of us but get 20+ wins regularly. UConn and Butler have had some spans of less than 20 but they consistently perform better than our elite 8 year. An extra 1-2 million goes along way in basketball. 2) this is college basketball not war. Cool work quoting some dates but your hypothetical was based in the time of the revolution. Washington spent a year retreating (cleverly) and years maneuvering. He was widely mocked for the first 2-3 years of the war and was not well supported by the continental Congress or the people of the colonies. Once he got some wins people realized he was creating the modern template for how to take on a super power. Still has nothing to do with basketball. 3) Annoying people until they stop talking to you isn't winning. We all cherry pick data but when caught you should try admitting it and moving on not jargoning us to death. 1. I will not true your not true.Creighton started this year 7-6. Butler last had a 20-win season two years ago, same as Oregon State. Butler used to have 20-win seasons a lot but have been falling further and further behind their Big East peers, since they joined the Big East. They recently attempted to undo their current trajectory by working to infuse millions more into their program but started this year 0-2. Butler could do more with less in a small conference, like the Atlantic 10 or Missouri Valley Conference, but Butler has found it difficult to continue since the move up to the Big East. San Diego State is a huge fish in a little pond, and their inclusion into the future Pac-12+ conference is a testament to that. You don't need millions more to compete in the Mountain West. Xavier has not had a winning season since Chris Mack quit to start coaching Louisville in 2018. Mack was a Xavier grad, who coached Xavier to eight 20+ win seasons in nine before leaving. Sean Miller, who was Xavier's coach once upon the time before coaching at Arizona, is Xavier's coach again. Xavier is a great example of institutional inertia. You win, because you recruit well, and you recruit well, because you have a history of winning. Before hiring Sean Miller, Xavier had a budget more than 40% times the size of Oregon State's. Miller's base salary is $5 million by itself (and can be up to $9 million with incentives). $5 million is larger than Oregon State's entire budget and the $9 million is almost double by itself. You would have to more than triple Oregon State's budget to get to how much Xavier spends on basketball. They are not comparable. Connecticut's budget is even larger than Xavier's. Wisconsin hired Bo Ryan in 2001. Dick Bennett had started the build, but Ryan built Wisconsin into what it is today over 14+ seasons before retiring midseason and naming Greg Gard his successor. Gard has continued the success at Wisconsin. Wisconsin, with no comparable public university of its size in a much larger state is in a very different position than Oregon State. 2. Washington was employing the Fabian Strategy. The strategy itself is not very applicable other than rightly confronting the relative superpowers within our own conference. Leadership is universal and exists beyonds the realm of basketball and war. I will say that Tinkle probably knows better how to battle, given his assets and liabilities, with Oregon State than an outsider.
3. I make arguments with the understanding that those who disagree will formulate counter-arguments. I know the strength and weaknesses of my argument. Ohio has asserted the best counter-argument possible. Spin that however you would like. |
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Post by alwaysorange on Dec 26, 2022 14:25:00 GMT -8
I don't know the answer but since many here say the osu job is a career killer can some body give me a couple names of coaches that in the last 20 years went from a pac12 school to bigger fame and fortune?
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Post by beaverology on Dec 26, 2022 14:33:56 GMT -8
Tony Bennett from WSU to Virginia.
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Post by alwaysorange on Dec 26, 2022 14:35:54 GMT -8
Tony Bennett from WSU to Virginia. Ok another? Seems to be many head coaching positions in the pac12 that are career " killers". |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Dec 26, 2022 15:14:31 GMT -8
Tony Bennett from WSU to Virginia. Ok another? Seems to be many head coaching positions in the pac12 that are career " killers". California's Cuonzo Martin left California for the greener pastures of Missouri. Arizona's Sean Miller is now at Xavier and is making almost double what he was making at Arizona. |
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Post by nuclearbeaver on Dec 26, 2022 15:18:34 GMT -8
Numbers are all pulled from the excel file listed before. These were covid year numbers so they may be low depending on how many games a team played.
1) Creighton - Cool you binned the results of a single season and you got it wrong, they are 8-6. Since 2014 when Tinkle started they have 14, 20, 25, 21, 20, 24, 22 and 23 wins. Per the posted excel sheet in this chat their budget is $7 million so 2 million more than us.
2) I noted that Butler has had some bad spans. Considering they are right above us in funding their wins since WT are 14,10,22,16,21,25,22,23. If you go back to 2012 they were ending a 8 season span of 20 win seasons including a 28, 33,30 and 29. Considering they are essential equal in funding per that sheet I think any beaver fan would prefer their losing seasons. Specially since they are 10 and 14 in down years not 3 and 5... $5 million funding, 60k above us.
3) So you are saying Corvallis sucks so we can't win. Same dumb argument people make in football. Corvallis is a good place to go to school and if you build the program you attract talent. San Diego spends 4.25 million on basketball and we spend just under 5 million. So they spend way less yet have better recruiting, coaching and their worse season since 2005 is 19-14. It took Fisher 6 seasons to break through and he retired after 2017 19 win season. Brian Dutcher took over and has kept it rolling including a 30-2 year when covid struck.
4) Is this another one of your flawless argument traps for someone else to debunk? Genius. Xavier is 19, 19, 13 (only played 21), 23 since Chris Mack retired and is 10-3 this year under their new coach. Before that they went 5 straight seasons with 20+ wins and 5 straight trips to the dance. Their last losing season was 1995 at 13*-15...then their next one was 1988. Xavier like Crieghton has a budget of 7 million. In fact on that list they are 57 and 56. That is 2 million more than us. Again you are pulling numbers from all over the place. Use the list that was posted before if you want to be consistent.
5) UConn has a budget of 7.5 million. Thats 2.5 million more than ours not oil baron money at all. They are 13-0 so far on this season and have gone 23, 15 (23 games played), 19, 16, 14, 16, 25, 20 since WT took over. Thats 3 losing seasons of 16, 14, and 16 games. Think I would take those over 3 and 5...Id also take the national championship in 2013 and 2010 that they have. They do have the biggest budget of the teams I listed.
6) Ah good, classic they are better than us so its impossible. Well jeezers its impossible for us to get a good coach in Corvallis. They were crap until 1993 and then alright until Bo Ryan took them to the next level. Before that its about 60 seasons of crap, 20 seasons of alright and 5 really nice years. with a 6.2 million budget and a 1.2 million difference the level of success they have has is massive in comparison.
7) whatever
8) Thats just lazy as hell. Make good arguments in the first place and stop wasting everyones time reading impressively worded dribble.
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