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Post by rmancarl on May 14, 2018 19:41:51 GMT -8
I just watched a little video of PM earlier today. I think she has been underrated and it wouldn't surprise me to see her step on campus a bit more ready to play than AA. I'm pretty excited to see PM and AA battle it out for playing time this fall. I hope one of the will be ready to play some quality minutes.
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Post by greybeav on May 14, 2018 19:54:55 GMT -8
Where did you find the video?
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 20:06:54 GMT -8
Where did you find the video? Here is some recent video of her. She hits a put-back at about 25:00. They didn't start her for this all-star game. And here is an older game. 21 points 13 rebounds 5 blocks.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 20:37:55 GMT -8
Exactly! And more than that, that video clip is an example of how offensively she's even already ahead of Ruth Hamblin as a senior! Ruth, even as a senior, couldn't consistently hit a shot from a few feet away. I saw her play in some game after leaving OSU, and after getting additional tutoring, and she was still missing from close range. That's why I say PM can develop into a big contributor offensively even as a freshman. And PM has said the hook shot is her favorite shot, though I haven't seen it displayed. Defensively, it will take her a lot of work to get to RH's level, but with that extra inch of height she could end up being much better than RH. She's a much better athlete than RH and probably smarter, too (she speaks fluent Mandarin). Speaking Mandarin can't be too tough if 1.4 billion people do it. It's a mark of our US provincialism that we think learning a second language is some exceptional intellectual accomplishment. In many other countries, speaking a second or third language is something that ordinary folks working the counter in a shop can do. &BTW, Ruth speaks French in addition to English. Nearly 20% of Canadians are bilingual. Big difference between French and Mandarin, don't you think? She has a 4.4 GPA and Rueck is on record praising PM's intelligence. I don't think there's any doubt that she's smarter than thickhead.
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Post by Werebeaver on May 15, 2018 5:41:13 GMT -8
Speaking Mandarin can't be too tough if 1.4 billion people do it. It's a mark of our US provincialism that we think learning a second language is some exceptional intellectual accomplishment. In many other countries, speaking a second or third language is something that ordinary folks working the counter in a shop can do. &BTW, Ruth speaks French in addition to English. Nearly 20% of Canadians are bilingual. Big difference between French and Mandarin, don't you think? She has a 4.4 GPA and Rueck is on record praising PM's intelligence. I don't think there's any doubt that she's smarter than thickhead. Learning a second language isn’t a sign of great intelligence. It’s a sign of application. People of ordinary intelligence can learn a second language if they apply themselves to the task.
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2ndGenBeaver
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on May 15, 2018 7:05:27 GMT -8
I would be a little cautious in proclaiming *any* incoming frosh ahead of Ruth Hamblin. Ruth got a Mechanical engineering degree while playing All-Pac 12 level basketball. Ruth was good enough to be a WNBA draft pick, and holds many of the post position records, some of which (e.g. blocks) might be untouchable any time soon.
That said, PM and AA will get as many minutes as they can consume, since JG, unless JG takes a "Kolbie leap", will not be holding down more than 15 minutes per game at post. My prediction is that AA will get the most minutes, because she can slide over to the forward spot with her versatility and outside shot. SR experimented a bit with twin towers this past year with Marie and JG, I expect much more of that this coming season. PM looks really good in much of the video, and I think she is likely underrated. A post whose favorite shot is the hook? Love it. Love the video as well - both because she rebounded with authority, but more for how quickly she went back up (no small feat for 6'7"). She is certainly ahead of JG, or even likely Ruth if she consistently can show quicks like that!
Go Beavers!
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2018 7:09:24 GMT -8
Big difference between French and Mandarin, don't you think? She has a 4.4 GPA and Rueck is on record praising PM's intelligence. I don't think there's any doubt that she's smarter than thickhead. Learning a second language isn’t a sign of great intelligence. It’s a sign of application. People of ordinary intelligence can learn a second language if they apply themselves to the task. "There is a link between general intelligence and second language learning ability (Gardner & Lambert, 1972). Pimsleur (1971) stated that a school learner's average grade in all school subjects was often a good means of predicting how good he would be at language learning. However it has also become clear that success in second language learning is related not only to general cognitive ability, but also to a more language specific set of learning abilities which are usually called "Language Aptitude". What is clear is that there is a very close relationship between intelligence and acquisition."
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Post by Werebeaver on May 15, 2018 7:37:46 GMT -8
Learning a second language isn’t a sign of great intelligence. It’s a sign of application. People of ordinary intelligence can learn a second language if they apply themselves to the task. "There is a link between general intelligence and second language learning ability (Gardner & Lambert, 1972). Pimsleur (1971) stated that a school learner's average grade in all school subjects was often a good means of predicting how good he would be at language learning. However it has also become clear that success in second language learning is related not only to general cognitive ability, but also to a more language specific set of learning abilities which are usually called "Language Aptitude". What is clear is that there is a very close relationship between intelligence and acquisition."
Thanks for substantiating my statement.
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Post by willtalk on May 15, 2018 8:01:07 GMT -8
This game was posted in a thread some time ago on this site. It's a game from PM Junior year. I posted it again for comparison purpose and to make a few points.
You just need to watch the beginning of the game-------Notice how engaged PM is and the ground she covers on defense.There is also a video on youtube against South (also her JR year ) where she shows the same level of intensity on both offense and defense. in this game she is facing a better defender. Compare her level of play to the All Star game video that was posted.
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Post by willtalk on May 15, 2018 8:58:06 GMT -8
My point is three fold. First point--She seems to have taken a one year sabbatical in respect the effort she put into basketball after she her commitment to Oregon St. All her stats dropped considerably in her Sr. Year along with her team over all performance. That doesn't affect her potential, but it will increase the shock most high school players feel when they have to adapt to a top level D1 program. The higher level they play in high school the lesser the shock is and Duarte was very low level competition.
Second point--- The All Star game was also very low level of play. It's more of a local All Star game. If you listen to the introductions, only PM is announced as getting a scholarship. They usually announce those things in All Star or Playoff games even if they are only partial D3 schollies. This game means nothing except to show that her intensity of play had diminished considerably since her Jr. season to the degree that she was not even a starter on a very weak All Star team. The lack of scholarships for the players that were chosen in that game reflects that.
Third point---- There has been a lot of criticism on the level of play shown by Grymek. Examples being that she has bad hands, is slow and hasn't been very productive for Oregon St. Now just from observation it is obvious that PM has a higher potential ceiling than JG. Primarily because she is a better athlete and has quicker feet. Still many athletes never reach their potential, while some non athletes compensate by developing their skill set through hard work. What needs to be remembered is that it is potential not yet manifest or shown.
Comparing how PM looks in these video's to how JG played against top level D1 competition is absurd. JG had to make a major adjustment from the Jr college level of play. She averaged 15.4 pts 8.6 rb's and 62%fgp. In PM's Sr year she averaged 12pts pre game, compared to her Jr year it was 17pt per game. This is opposite than what it generally is under similar circumstances. Still taking her Jr year stats, the best players in the league PM played in woul be lucky to make a JC team. There can be no logical comparisons made between GM and PM's stats. Even considering JG's much higher level of competition, JG's team was good enough to make it to the National Simi's, we can see the adjustment she had to make to the level of Pac 12 basketball. You can magnify the adjustment PM will have to make will be multiple times that of JG's or even AA's. She is a project who's actual level no none at this time can logically predict.
Oh and I also saw PM miss passes off her hands and fumble rebounds as well even against high school players a foot shorter than her. Now this post is not to be taken as a criticism of PM. She still has a chance to be a really good basketball player both in college and beyond. It is just we need to be realistic in discerning the difference between future potential and what has already been manifested. Nothing wrong with praising players, but lets not do it at the expense of other players already on the team. To imply that they will step in as unproven freshman and be better than players who have already played against top level D1 competition is an insult to those players.
Players develop a lot of negative habits in high school that need to be eliminated when they get to the next level. The biggest challenge I see for PM is adapting to the level of intensity and commitment that is required of a major D1 program. The level of intensity that she shows in the early part of her game in the video I posted, which she displayed in many of her games her Jr year needs to be there her entire time on the court at Oregon St. Even in practice. Even AA who played in a more competitive program will face a shock transitioning to Oregon St's level of competition. AA also seemed to have taken a step backwards in her choice of program to play for. Still it was not even close to the low level PM was involved with. Until they get them in the gym and part of the the program, no one really knows how quickly they will adapt and be ready to contribute.
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Post by 411500 on May 15, 2018 11:25:07 GMT -8
willtalk makes several observations that, at least to me, have the ring of common sense mingled with sound basketball sense.
I'm going to avoid the discussion of how good Patricia Morris is and will be. There is just not enough genuine evidence to answer these questions meaningfully. My experience has taught me that judging basketball talent from limited video footage is pointless unless the player in question is exceptionally gifted or exceptionally weak. Video footage, in general, is not pointless, but limited footage against weak competition is.
I find myself in agreement with willtalk's observation that "Comparing how PM looks in these video's to how JG played against top level D1 competition is absurd."
Consider this: Most of us have watched Jo for an entire season, yet even after more than a dozen first hand observations we still disagree about her current talent level, and even more about how much she will contribute to the 2018-2019 campaign... So, considering this, it is absurd to think anyone can make VALID guesstimates about PM's PAC-12 skill set based on meagre video glimpses into selected high school games.
I also finds myself in agreement with w's observation: "The biggest challenge I see for PM is adapting to the level of intensity and commitment that is required of a major D1 program." This, of course, is one of the many unknowns about both PM & AA...
And, once again, this takes us back to the judgements already made by Coach Rueck in the recruiting process. In essence, Coach has stated that both girls have demonstrated to his satisfaction the temperament to handle "the grind" of OSU WBB. (And it is one helluva grind!) Now, whether Coach is correct in his judgments about the competitive instincts and the day-to-day dedication of PM & AA remains to be seen. Generally speaking, however, he holds a sterling record in these "attitude" assessments...
At any rate, I appreciate the comments willtalk delivered in his previous post; they are calculated, cautious and have the ring of common sense....
Fans are entitled to unbridled enthusiasm, to endless optimism, and to galactic expectations - fair enough. Knowledgeable fans, however, hold expectations tempered by patience, disciplined reason, and evidence-based data - fair enough, but far more boring !!😇
GO BEAVS !!
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Post by lotrader on May 15, 2018 11:41:06 GMT -8
Agree 100% with willtalk. Regarding all the OSU recruits coming in next year, I won't make any judgments on their abilities, potential, fit for the team, etc., until I see them on the court in an OSU practice, or, playing in an OSU game. Bottom line, PAC12 ball (Marie Gulich, Monique Billings, Jordan Canada, all the current and past OSU players) will be a HUGE step function change for these ladies when they finally land on campus.
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Post by rmancarl on May 15, 2018 20:41:52 GMT -8
I'm new to this board, but it seem apparent most of the posters on this board are a bit negative towards JG's play. I get it. She's not Marie,and she's not Ruth. Again, I get it. I agree with much of what I have read. There was one game in particular though, that should give all of us a little hope. In the first game against Arizona, JG played 15 minutes, had 8 points (4 for 4 shooting) 5 boards, and 2 assist. I remember watching that game and being fairly impressed. Yes, I know, it was Arizona. Obviously, she shot the ball well around the basket. I remember one poster on this board commenting on getting JG the ball in the right position, and I think they made a good point.
I have thoughts of what I think next season will be like, but the post position is the biggest question. There will be three 'bigs' on the team, and I'm not sure any of them will average over 20 minutes per game. I do know SR will find the best part of each of their games, and use them in the way they can best help the team. I won't be surprised to see an improved JG next year, but I also don't think it would be fair to expect her to be a Ruth or a Marie.
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2ndGenBeaver
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on May 15, 2018 20:53:53 GMT -8
Agree 100% with willtalk. Regarding all the OSU recruits coming in next year, I won't make any judgments on their abilities, potential, fit for the team, etc., until I see them on the court in an OSU practice, or, playing in an OSU game. Bottom line, PAC12 ball (Marie Gulich, Monique Billings, Jordan Canada, all the current and past OSU players) will be a HUGE step function change for these ladies when they finally land on campus. I would say that you are spot on with regard to AA and PM - though AA's team did play St. Mary's with DeCosta.... Jazz Simmons has played against world-class talent and acquitted herself well, so I would suggest the "step function" for her might be a little bit less dramatic. I recall in Ruth Hamblin's first year, she was basically coached to block shots, bother shots, rebound, set picks, use fouls wisely, and maybe take a shot/putback to keep the defense honest every now and again. She was incredibly talented, and incredibly motivated, and ended up possessing some records that won't fall anytime soon. Some Pac-12 records even. I think this was a combination of talent spotting by our coaching staff, player development by our coaching staff, coupled with amazing motivation on the player's part and a whole lot of innate talent. JG will be miles ahead of where she was at this year (and she contributed this year, but we also had a first round draft pick ahead of her getting every minute we could get her) based on the progression we have seen post players follow. But I believe AA and PM will get their minutes. Not because their videos reveal them to be the next Marie Gulich or Ruth Hamblin, but because SR has rarely red shirted a player, and the incoming players appear to be able to contribute to the tune of Ruth Hamblin as a freshman (~13 min/game, ~4ppg, 3rbg, 1 blk). That is why I posited JG getting ~15 min/game above - not bagging on her at all, but assuming post minutes being distributed among 3+ players. Also, unless AA is joining the Paraguay National team for the summer, they should be in Corvallis for more of the summer - I recall JG arrived in Corvallis later than the rest of the newcomers last summer because she was with the Polish National team. Along with twin towers (or even triple towers some time just for fun), I wonder if we will see any "speedy small ball" with Maddie, Janessa, Taya etc. in the front court. SR is going to have a good time this coming season. Rampant speculation here (but, hey, it *is* the off season), but if my line of reasoning on contribution levels above is remotely plausible, then our "center by committee" is capable of 12 pts, 9 rebounds and 3 blocks a game (and 15 fouls, though Ruth never fouled out as a frosh and even more interestingly only averaged 1 foul per game). We will have an amazing back court, hopefully good growth at forward, and looks like Jazz Simmons could contribute some right away as well. Thus I conclude, with no basis other than convoluted reasoning, that we will be at worst about the same level team as we were this year, which is pretty exciting. And with dramatic returning player development (something which seems like has happened each year of SR's tenure), it could really get interesting. Go Beavers!
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 3:27:40 GMT -8
I recall in Ruth Hamblin's first year, she was basically coached to block shots, bother shots, rebound, set picks, use fouls wisely, and maybe take a shot/putback to keep the defense honest every now and again. She was incredibly talented, and incredibly motivated, and ended up possessing some records that won't fall anytime soon. Some Pac-12 records even. I think this was a combination of talent spotting by our coaching staff, player development by our coaching staff, coupled with amazing motivation on the player's part and a whole lot of innate talent JG will be miles ahead of where she was at this year (and she contributed this year, but we also had a first round draft pick ahead of her getting every minute we could get her) based on the progression we have seen post players follow. Along with twin towers (or even triple towers some time just for fun), I wonder if we will see any "speedy small ball" with Maddie, Janessa, Taya etc. in the front court. SR is going to have a good time this coming season. Oh, phooey! You people! 1) RH was NOT "incredibly talented". That's nuts. She had very little talent but she parlayed that into being big time player through hard work. Like I've said, even as a senior and then as a pro this "incredibly talented" person of yours had trouble consistently hitting a wide open shot from 3 feet. If you can't remember big games where she would consistently miss wide-open 3-footers, then you weren't paying attention. Nuts. 2) JG will NOT be "miles ahead" of where she was this year. It's nuts to think she's going to make some dramatic improvement after showing no real improvement in the course of her first year. She'll be a senior, for heavens sake. She ain't no freshman from whom you MIGHT expect a big jump. She's topped out, mind and body. If she's on the floor more than 10 minutes per game then we've got a bad year ahead. 3) MW et.al. is not a path to "speedy small ball". She barely 6'1" and overweight, she ain't fast, and she can't jump. There's a good reason she saw so few minutes in the final games last year. Let's get real, here. AA and PM both have vastly more innate physical skill than RH and they (not JG) had BETTER be on the floor a LOT or next season is going to be a 4th to 7th place showing for us, even WITH Destiny Slocum at the point. We can't compete against the Ucks or Cal or Stanford or ASU without a serious post presence on both offense and defense.
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