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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on May 7, 2017 9:18:02 GMT -8
JP brought in some of t he best offensive line talent OSU has had over the years.
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Post by blackbug on May 7, 2017 22:26:51 GMT -8
OMG! ANOTHER MR v. GA thread. Seriously? Actually it was a GA vs Pettibone post. Until GA can surpass Pettibone's mark of 8 wins in two years is there any real point in comparing him to anyone but Pettibone. Here is my opinions on recruiting. I find it interesting for whatever reason and follow it pretty closely. As one who spends too much time evaluating recruiting I would say the angst with recruiting is unfounded, too soon and wrong. Yes, the recruiting is better in some metrics and others not better. I never expected the new coaching staff to be a lot better than the previous staff and especially not early in the game. I want to see if the momentum continues and how this affects recruiting. The 3 complete recruiting classes for the current staff rank slightly better per athlete than the previous 5 years. Almost every team in the Pac 12 is measurably recruiting better than they were 5 years ago (Cal is the exception and USC has not changed), it is difficult to compare our ranking in the Pac 12 from the past to today because it does not mean same thing. I think the staff should be measured with the momentum of this coming year in win and loss and recruiting as we will see how they do when things look brighter. We still have not seen what a roster full of the current coaches' recruits can do. The current staff has shown that they are able to build some momentum with the current roster with most people believing the upcoming season will be around 6 to 7 wins. I am happy to give them time to see how it plays out. Also, the recruiting statistics include the 2015 class, which was a poorly ranked class. This was mostly due to December hiring of new coach, a month to get enough staffing to do the work, dead recruiting period pushing any recruiting work to start in January with signing day in beginning of February. This class was a lot like Cal's last year with the late start for the staff. It isn't a good indicator of anything. I am confused by the expectation of a new coach changing the attitude of players to want to come play for a university like Oregon State with it's reputation. I like the reputation personally, but we do not have the reputation like u$c or the even ucks, that is just the way it is. So we will lose head to head with u$c about 99 times out of 100 and probably 9 out of 10 with the ucks in recruiting. Winning will help with this, but not change it much. Colorado is a good example they definitely had a good uptick in recruiting with wins this last year, but they had 6 teams recruiting better than them in the Pac 12. They are at best middle of the road in recruiting in the Pac 12. It would literally take years of elite teams and good media exposure for the players to start thinking Colorado is the best destination spot. Another interesting fact we are recruiting higher ranked recruits thus far than Colorado in 2018, which is all that matters this early in the game. u$c will have more 4 and 5 star recruits commit, decommit and then recommit then we will have 4 or 5 stars commit period (I find that humorous). Other interesting note: relatively low ranked recruits that have contributed a fair amount under current staff include Andrej Hughes-Murray, Joah Robinett, Artavis Pierce, Timmy Hernandez, Shemar Smith, Paisa Savea, Elu Aydon, Jay Irvine, Treston Decoud, Seth Collins, Jalen Moore, Omar Hicks-Onu, Nick Porebski, Sosaia Tauaho, Xavier Crawford, Bright Ugwoegbu, Sumner Houston, Ryan Nall, Trent Moore, Yanni Demorogerontas, Dwayne Williams, Justin Strong, Titus Failauga, Fred Lauina, Manase Hungalu, and Connor Blount. Oregon State has and will continue to need to find undervalued recruits until the day they become a powerhouse in the eyes of the entire nation. |
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Post by ochobeavo on May 8, 2017 7:30:51 GMT -8
Nope just one. In spite of what you may think, I'm not looking to provoke you. I legitimately hoped you could offer some evidence, or at least a solid opinion for why we should have some hope our recruiting is about to get a lot better. If you can, please share because this Beaver fan can use some encouragement to get excited by the state of Beaver football after two dreadful years. Oh and thanks for linking to what I actually said. The issue with your "sky is falling" declaration isn't whether or not I think recruiting will be substantially better, I've never said that - and i spend plenty of time on the recruiting board. The issue is that your post was devoid of facts. For example, this is not a fact (unless you know more than the rest of us) - and you still haven'd addressed your rationale here: With GA's approach, we spend more time, energy, and resources going after players we're not getting.
We're not traveling anywhere that we didn't travel before to recruit. We aren't following a different recruiting cycle than anyone else - spring consists of in-homes/high school visits/OSU unofficial campus visits/invite kids to spring game, summer - combine/camp circuit, OSU team camp, fall - official visits, coaches travel on bye weeks. Now if you said, I don't like how GA has recruited 3 QBs who are essentially projects (based on ratings and offers), 1 of which has already has been moved to safety - I would say that's absolutely spot on and also based on facts. if you said, the actual number of HS d-lineman coming in has been extremely light, especially at DT/NT - I'd agree with you there. See how facts works? Diving deeper, I think it's interesting that the 3 positions you specifically mentioned were DB, WR and QB. "Before we attracted QB's, WR's, and DB's looking for excellent development through coaching and a system that prepared them for the NFL. What does this staff offer?"I'd argue that DB and WR are the 2 groups where we've actually recruited very well. This most recent class was widely viewed as stronger at WR than any other position. Hodgins is our biggest WR recruit on paper since Cooks. Hodgins held offers from UW, Oregon, Michigan, Wisconsin, and a dozen others. Quantino Allen had offers from plenty of P5 schools and there was a late push to keep him back east. Kolby Taylor chose OSU over ASU, Notre Dame, Wisconsin and Louisville. In year 1 we brought in Trevon Bradford who looks like an excellent find and found his way on the field as a true freshman. I'd say this is pretty impressive because we've been a terrible passing team for the better part of 2 seasons. At DB, Christian Wallace is one of our highest rated recruits in recent memory and we'll see this fall if he's the real deal. Trajon Cotton committed to us over offers from Nebraska, Cal, Oregon, UCLA, Utah and Colorado. Jeffrey Manning committed to us over offers from UCLA, Utah, WSU, Boise State, Colorado. We also just had a DB drafted, a DB named freshman all-american and a pretty nice success story in Devin Chappell who signed as an UDFA with Kansas City. These are real recruiting battles and we've won them. These guys represent energy and resources spent on players who are here or on their way. So the staff must be offering something. So you can say "recruiting may have fallen off" all you want, but looking at the kids that are here and the recruiting battles we won this last cycle, I'd say you have a pretty weak argument at this point. And again, just to point out that I don't blindly love all things GA - I'd say I'm very disappointed/borderline terrified with how we've recruited at QB. Moran was raw and a roll of the dice and in hindsight probably benefited in HS from being surrounded by a 1/2 dozen D1 players on offense. Luton had zero P5 interest outside of us - and that's a JC conference that gets plenty of recruiting eyes on it. Willard is a long term project, was injured most of his senior year, played in a pretty mediocre league and they didn't throw it all that much his junior year -but he apparently impressed us enough at the team camp and summer circuit last year. I'm happy to be wrong on Luton and Willard and hope that I am. I was disappointed that we lost out late on 2 good looking RB prospects last year as well - though I'm more inclined to think our depth chart had something to do with that. |
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Post by nforkbeav on May 8, 2017 11:52:24 GMT -8
Ocho,
Some good points.
The reason I say we're spending much more for recruiting now than before is because to a man each one of our recruiters is making significantly more than the last staff without the justification for the higher pay yet on the recruiting front. We also invested a lot of money in the valley center to gain a recruiting advantage so I figure that into the mix. As for all the other recruiting expenses, like travel expenses, marketing, etc. you're right I don't have the figures to compare.
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Post by ochobeavo on May 8, 2017 12:42:56 GMT -8
We also invested a lot of money in the valley center to gain a recruiting advantage so I figure that into the mix. The bulk of the Valley upgrade was through private donations. and I'm not sure how Valley Center plays into "GA's approach" |
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Post by obf on May 8, 2017 12:50:18 GMT -8
Nope just one. In spite of what you may think, I'm not looking to provoke you. I legitimately hoped you could offer some evidence, or at least a solid opinion for why we should have some hope our recruiting is about to get a lot better. If you can, please share because this Beaver fan can use some encouragement to get excited by the state of Beaver football after two dreadful years. Oh and thanks for linking to what I actually said. Don't just take Ocho's (very well informed) opinion on the matter... Here (http://www.oregonlive.com/recruiting/index.ssf/2017/05/halid_djibril_3-star_safety_co.html), is what the guy who follows recruiting the closest in the state thinks: and I will agree with Ocho that the QB position and Linman positions have been a little light (although if we just want to continuously mine the JC ranks for linemen and not roll the dice on 300 lb 18 year olds, that might actually be a good idea...). But I agree with Nemec as well, sure seems like we are winning our fair share of guys away from oth P5 teams, and not just poaching guys from Boise State, Nevada, and other mid majors |
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Post by obf on May 8, 2017 12:54:38 GMT -8
Ocho, Some good points. The reason I say we're spending much more for recruiting now than before is because to a man each one of our recruiters is making significantly more than the last staff without the justification for the higher pay yet on the recruiting front. We also invested a lot of money in the valley center to gain a recruiting advantage so I figure that into the mix. As for all the other recruiting expenses, like travel expenses, marketing, etc. you're right I don't have the figures to compare. What does this have to do with the price of tea in China??? Riley left, we had to hire SOMEONE, and that person was ALWAYS going to make more than RIley and staff did... Not just because Riley and staff had an artificially low salary (hint don't check how much they are making now, you might cry), but because of a little thing called inflation, and the inflation rates for high demand very low supply things like coaching well outpaces market... Did you see Nick Saban is making 11 million a year now? In terms of facilities... again those were coming regardless of the coach, so why is this someone something GA has to "pay off" now??? We still lag in facilities to most other P5 schools so it doesn't really even give GA an advantage, just barely helps the school keep up... The real question you should be asking is why we didn't do more with the successes we DID have under Riley, why we didn't build the facilities THEN, why we weren't going after big time recruits THEN... |
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Post by nforkbeav on May 8, 2017 15:40:38 GMT -8
Nope just one. In spite of what you may think, I'm not looking to provoke you. I legitimately hoped you could offer some evidence, or at least a solid opinion for why we should have some hope our recruiting is about to get a lot better. If you can, please share because this Beaver fan can use some encouragement to get excited by the state of Beaver football after two dreadful years. Oh and thanks for linking to what I actually said. Don't just take Ocho's (very well informed) opinion on the matter... Here (http://www.oregonlive.com/recruiting/index.ssf/2017/05/halid_djibril_3-star_safety_co.html), is what the guy who follows recruiting the closest in the state thinks: and I will agree with Ocho that the QB position and Linman positions have been a little light (although if we just want to continuously mine the JC ranks for linemen and not roll the dice on 300 lb 18 year olds, that might actually be a good idea...). But I agree with Nemec as well, sure seems like we are winning our fair share of guys away from oth P5 teams, and not just poaching guys from Boise State, Nevada, and other mid majors The guy may follow recruiting closer than anyone in the state, but if he truly made the statements you attributed to him, he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about and has no credibility. We beat out Hawaii, Idaho, and San Jose state for players in last years class a lot more frequently than P12 teams. "seems like we are winning our fair share of guys away from other P5 teams". What does our fair share even mean and which P12 teams? It matters. If it was Cal last year then not impressive. If it's UW, USC, STanford, sdtr then more impressive. For someone who supposedly follows recruiting closer than anyone in the state, where's his list of how many battles we're winning since GA's arrival vs P5 teams compared to the three years prior to his arrival. |
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Post by nforkbeav on May 8, 2017 15:45:34 GMT -8
The bulk of the Valley upgrade was through private donations. and I'm not sure how Valley Center plays into "GA's approach" Really? So if you were single and I gave you a Ferrari, in your wildest imagination you couldn't figure out how that might change your approach with the ladies. If GA isn't factoring the Valley Center into his recruiting arsenal and using it for every dime we've spent on it, then we've really got problems. |
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Post by obf on May 8, 2017 15:52:30 GMT -8
The guy may follow recruiting closer than anyone in the state, but if he truly made the statements you attributed to him, he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about and has no credibility. We beat out Hawaii, Idaho, and San Jose state for players in last years class a lot more frequently than P12 teams. "seems like we are winning our fair share of guys away from other P5 teams". What does our fair share even mean and which P12 teams? It matters. If it was Cal last year then not impressive. If it's UW, USC, STanford, sdtr then more impressive. For someone who supposedly follows recruiting closer than anyone in the state, where's his list of how many battles we're winning since GA's arrival vs P5 teams compared to the three years prior to his arrival. Ocho gave you a nice starting list just a few posts above, but here... let me quote it for you, and bold the parts you skimmed over: You can question Nemec's credibility all you want, but all you have to back it up is.... bluster, so... where is YOUR list of evidence? |
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Post by obf on May 8, 2017 15:57:40 GMT -8
and I'm not sure how Valley Center plays into "GA's approach" Really? So if you were single and I gave you a Ferrari, in your wildest imagination you couldn't figure out how that might change your approach with the ladies. If GA isn't factoring the Valley Center into his recruiting arsenal and using it for every dime we've spent on it, then we've really got problems. You again miss the point... No one gave GA the valley center, it was in the works before he came, any coach coming here got to use it to "woo the ladies". And don't you worry he is using it (although, you realize it still isn't actually done yet right?). However, the valley center is a nice new sleek Audi, maybe even a Lexus... WAY better than the crappy ford Pinto Riley got to drive, but it is no Ferrari and certainly is the McLaren tsdtr (and U$C, and ucla, and etc etc) is driving... [Also, just for the sake of this discussion, lets just ignore the fact that it is an Audi with only 3 door installed so far... if you can call the entire West side of the stadium just a single door...] |
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Post by nforkbeav on May 8, 2017 15:59:18 GMT -8
We also invested a lot of money in the valley center to gain a recruiting advantage so I figure that into the mix. The bulk of the Valley upgrade was through private donations. And it was done for what purpose? Why do you think donors give that money? For crying out loud, the ducks are Beav light without the "private donations" of pk. Not factoring in "private donations" is leaving out a key resource in any recruiting discussion and therefore idiotic. Same goes for any other program. The two things are intertwined. |
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Post by nforkbeav on May 8, 2017 16:01:21 GMT -8
The guy may follow recruiting closer than anyone in the state, but if he truly made the statements you attributed to him, he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about and has no credibility. We beat out Hawaii, Idaho, and San Jose state for players in last years class a lot more frequently than P12 teams. "seems like we are winning our fair share of guys away from other P5 teams". What does our fair share even mean and which P12 teams? It matters. If it was Cal last year then not impressive. If it's UW, USC, STanford, sdtr then more impressive. For someone who supposedly follows recruiting closer than anyone in the state, where's his list of how many battles we're winning since GA's arrival vs P5 teams compared to the three years prior to his arrival. Ocho gave you a nice starting list just a few posts above, but here... let me quote it for you, and bold the parts you skimmed over: You can question Nemec's credibility all you want, but all you have to back it up is.... bluster, so... where is YOUR list of evidence? That's evidence of what? Let me remind you again what the question is. How many P12 teams are we beating out now versus prior. Which ones. I don't see that list, where is it? |
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sabzi
Freshman
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Post by sabzi on May 8, 2017 16:12:29 GMT -8
The bulk of the Valley upgrade was through private donations. And it was done for what purpose? Why do you think donors give that money? For crying out loud, the ducks are Beav light without the "private donations" of pk. Not factoring in "private donations" is leaving out a key resource in any recruiting discussion and therefore idiotic. Same goes for any other program. The two things are intertwined. The Valley upgrade is a status quo move. There is no recruiting advantage to be had when you still remain in the bottom of the conference for facilities and budget. |
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on May 8, 2017 16:17:07 GMT -8
Hasn't Nemec been the Oregonian's "recruiting guru" for all of 2-3 years? I've seen him use phrases like "highest rated recruit ever" that do work if you don't go back very far. I'm not sure how much historical perspective he has just yet.
I've seen plenty of recruits come in the last couple of years that are little different than Riley's recruits when it comes to who'who's been offering them.... so far.
Hopefully Nemec is right and things are turning. The evidence up until now hasn't been overly dramatic in my opinion.
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