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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Feb 29, 2024 11:26:40 GMT -8
So much needs to happen. I think the goal remains to be in the premier Pacific and Mountain time zone conference. If the ACC implodes, that creates a lot of opportunity. California and Stanford should be in the Pacific Conference When the merger occurs (it's going to be some sort of merger), there needs to be a requirement of a certain amount of seating on each side of the field (looking at you SJSU). There needs to be a requirement of a minimum football budget (that's for you New Mexico and Nevada, maybe Wyoming). Some effort has to happen to make CUSA attractive to the Hawaii football program. A similar outreach needs to happen in the American Conference regarding the Air Force Academy. Football is ok there but everything else and women's programs don't fit. Utah and the Arizona's should not be in the Texas & East Coast Conference. Do you try to "organically" create disenchantment within their booster groups? How do you drive a wedge between USC and UCLA? You try to make the Great Lakes Conference as difficult as possible for the Northwest members. You absolutely oppose more than a conference champion getting an automatic berth in a playoff. There is strength in numbers. If 80 or so current D1 members talk about a "university driven football playoff" as opposed to an "NFL light" model, the professional teams will slow way down. How do you start preliminary negotiations with TV networks, Apple, etc with an "idea?" We live in interesting times. I will continue to enjoy and support Oregon State athletics. I wouldn't worry about Wyoming's commitment to football. Its facilities are as good as ours, if not better. It is rebuilding the other half of its stadium, to mirror the half that was rebuilt about 10 years ago. UNM, SJSU and UNLV are the MWC's football question marks, money- and investment-wise. I suspect we will see UNLV's 2023 season was a complete outlier and it will revert to its historical norm this season. UNLV will be interesting to watch. Their home attendance jumped to 27K (+ or - a few hundred depending on the source one reads). If they have another good season, we'll see if there's another jump or not. |
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Post by ag87 on Feb 29, 2024 12:39:30 GMT -8
From roughly 1980 to 1989 UNLV was a huge attraction in basketball. Steve Wynn, other casino owners, mob bosses, and the movers and shakers were courtside Times are different now with the Raide's and GNights, but I think a highly competitive UNLV football team could be a big draw.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 29, 2024 14:16:15 GMT -8
So much needs to happen. I think the goal remains to be in the premier Pacific and Mountain time zone conference. If the ACC implodes, that creates a lot of opportunity. California and Stanford should be in the Pacific Conference When the merger occurs (it's going to be some sort of merger), there needs to be a requirement of a certain amount of seating on each side of the field (looking at you SJSU). There needs to be a requirement of a minimum football budget (that's for you New Mexico and Nevada, maybe Wyoming). Some effort has to happen to make CUSA attractive to the Hawaii football program. A similar outreach needs to happen in the American Conference regarding the Air Force Academy. Football is ok there but everything else and women's programs don't fit. Utah and the Arizona's should not be in the Texas & East Coast Conference. Do you try to "organically" create disenchantment within their booster groups? How do you drive a wedge between USC and UCLA? You try to make the Great Lakes Conference as difficult as possible for the Northwest members. You absolutely oppose more than a conference champion getting an automatic berth in a playoff. There is strength in numbers. If 80 or so current D1 members talk about a "university driven football playoff" as opposed to an "NFL light" model, the professional teams will slow way down. How do you start preliminary negotiations with TV networks, Apple, etc with an "idea?" We live in interesting times. I will continue to enjoy and support Oregon State athletics. If the ACC implodes, we also snag SMU. Then you grab at least one American Athletic Conference team (or two, if Tulane really adds anything) and see where we are at. You definitively want at least Colorado State, San Diego State, and UNLV. Boise is a great add to make 12 with Fresno being the second-most obvious option (unless that spooks Cal and Stanford). I am not sure that you need anymore teams beyond that. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 29, 2024 14:33:14 GMT -8
 You gotta use the gif. The issue with creating the fifth-best conference as I see it is that you want as few teams as possible to make it work. That is probably 10 teams. So, why is Utah State not in the bottom four of the Mountain West? Well, since you ask... Average final standing in the conference in football since joining: 4.2, with the best (#1) conference record three years, and one conference championship (the year we beat OSU in the LA Bowl...). Average final standing in the conference in men's basketball since joining: 4.8, with two conference tournament championships. Carnegie R-1 university.
FY 2022 (last available) research budget $390.7 million.About the only place you can ding us is media market. We're part of the Salt Lake media market, which we share with U of U and BYU. And yes, it will be almost impossible to break out of third place. Again, no school in the MWC checks all the boxes to be a P4 candidate. If they did, they'd already be there. UNLV? Ooooh! Great market! Except no one in Vegas cares about UNLV, and they have been terrible in football for forever, and mediocre in basketball for almost as long. San Diego State? Again, great market, and they have a better market share than UNLV, but still not great. Boise? Not great academics. They dominate their market, but it's small. Fresno? Objectively, they haven't been as good as everyone seems to think over the last 11 years. So, a bunch of flawed candidates. Of course, all this is moot, because the MWC has been very careful to make it painfully expensive to take less than all of us. I don't worry about Utah State, because we're in a stable conference. Our conference isn't getting poached, especially by the PAC-2, with no media deal and an, at best, uncertain future. So, take us all, or have a nice life. Send us a postcard... Utah State is probably one of the five best Mountain West schools academically. Air Force, Colorado State, New Mexico, and San Diego State are the only four that really have arguments to be better. The next-closest to Utah State academically is probably Nevada. |
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Post by grayman on Feb 29, 2024 15:52:56 GMT -8
The reality is that the SEC and Big Ten are going to separate from the other "power" conferences and effectively create an three-tier situation with the power two, the Big 12/ACC and the G5.
Unfortunately for the MWC, that means relegation to a college football third tier along with the other G5 schools. It will most likely have access to the CFP but barely.
We are likely to see quite a bit of chaos and upheaval in the college football world during the coming years.
That will no doubt start with teams leaving the ACC. IMO, this is something that OSU and WSU officials are watching closely.
If a handful of teams leave the ACC I believe the conference will make an offer to the Pac-2 to help hold it together. I think it will make a lot of sense from the ACC's perspective to pair the Pac-2 with Cal and Stanford (and probably SMU) and I wouldn't be surprised if a few other schools were offered to create a viable West Coast division or pod and ensure that travel is kept to a minimum.
The timing is important but I think it might be close enough to make it work for all parties.
People can doubt this all they want and of course it might not happen, but what is all but guaranteed at this point is that FSU is going to leave and that will almost guarantee others to follow. Once that begins to happen, make no mistake. The ACC will go into hyper-aggressive overdrive to save the conference.
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Post by aggielarry on Feb 29, 2024 17:09:49 GMT -8
Well, since you ask... Average final standing in the conference in football since joining: 4.2, with the best (#1) conference record three years, and one conference championship (the year we beat OSU in the LA Bowl...). Average final standing in the conference in men's basketball since joining: 4.8, with two conference tournament championships. Carnegie R-1 university.
FY 2022 (last available) research budget $390.7 million.About the only place you can ding us is media market. We're part of the Salt Lake media market, which we share with U of U and BYU. And yes, it will be almost impossible to break out of third place. Again, no school in the MWC checks all the boxes to be a P4 candidate. If they did, they'd already be there. UNLV? Ooooh! Great market! Except no one in Vegas cares about UNLV, and they have been terrible in football for forever, and mediocre in basketball for almost as long. San Diego State? Again, great market, and they have a better market share than UNLV, but still not great. Boise? Not great academics. They dominate their market, but it's small. Fresno? Objectively, they haven't been as good as everyone seems to think over the last 11 years. So, a bunch of flawed candidates. Of course, all this is moot, because the MWC has been very careful to make it painfully expensive to take less than all of us. I don't worry about Utah State, because we're in a stable conference. Our conference isn't getting poached, especially by the PAC-2, with no media deal and an, at best, uncertain future. So, take us all, or have a nice life. Send us a postcard... Utah State is probably one of the five best Mountain West schools academically. Air Force, Colorado State, New Mexico, and San Diego State are the only four that really have arguments to be better. The next-closest to Utah State academically is probably Nevada. Some time ago I looked into MWC academic metrics just for my own interest. Interestingly, both UNR and UNLV are Carnegie R1 universities. UNLV really surprised me. We generally think of it as a commuter school, a community college on steroids, much like Boise State. It's known locally as "University of Never Left Vegas". That perception is erroneous. It's actually pretty good, academically. San Diego State, on the other hand, is only a Carnegie R2 university. It's much closer to Boise State than UNLV is. As with many things, SDSU gets more credit for academics than they really deserve. I'd put USU in the top four in the conference; maybe even top three. One final item. That 2022 research budget for USU does not reflect current reality. USU is home to the Space Dynamics Laboratory, a multidisciplinary lab that designs and builds highly specialized equipment for NASA and the military. In 2023, it was announced that the Air Force research labs had given a ten year, $1 Billion grant to the SDL. That's Billion with a "B". That means an additional $100 Million per year into the USU research budget, bringing the total annual budget to close to $500 Million. |
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Post by atownbeaver on Feb 29, 2024 17:55:19 GMT -8
Utah State is probably one of the five best Mountain West schools academically. Air Force, Colorado State, New Mexico, and San Diego State are the only four that really have arguments to be better. The next-closest to Utah State academically is probably Nevada. Some time ago I looked into MWC academic metrics just for my own interest. Interestingly, both UNR and UNLV are Carnegie R1 universities. UNLV really surprised me. We generally think of it as a commuter school, a community college on steroids, much like Boise State. It's known locally as "University of Never Left Vegas". That perception is erroneous. It's actually pretty good, academically. San Diego State, on the other hand, is only a Carnegie R2 university. It's much closer to Boise State than UNLV is. As with many things, SDSU gets more credit for academics than they really deserve. I'd put USU in the top four in the conference; maybe even top three. One final item. That 2022 research budget for USU does not reflect current reality. USU is home to the Space Dynamics Laboratory, a multidisciplinary lab that designs and builds highly specialized equipment for NASA and the military. In 2023, it was announced that the Air Force research labs had given a ten year, $1 Billion grant to the SDL. That's Billion with a "B". That means an additional $100 Million per year into the USU research budget, bringing the total annual budget to close to $500 Million. The Carnegie research classification is of poor value to evaluate the quality of a school. all an R1 designation means is you offer at least 70 PhD programs (doesn't matter what they are, could literally be finger painting theory) and spent at least $50 million in research expenditures. San Diego State University is an R2 school because it "only" offers 30 PhD programs. If you review the all the general college rating outfits, San Diego State is generally rated much, much better. Literally all Carnegie is, is a measure of the relative size of the university, it speaks nothing to the quality of it. I don't say any of it to defend SDSU or diminish USU, which is a fine university. Just saying Carnegie is a flawed measure of quality. Other R1 Universities that may surprise you: Montana Montana State North Dakota State University Colorado School of Mines The less broadly known UC schools, like Davis, Irvine, Riverside, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz and San Diego. There are 146 R1 universities in the US, it isn't exactly rare company... |
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Post by aggielarry on Feb 29, 2024 20:07:44 GMT -8
Some time ago I looked into MWC academic metrics just for my own interest. Interestingly, both UNR and UNLV are Carnegie R1 universities. UNLV really surprised me. We generally think of it as a commuter school, a community college on steroids, much like Boise State. It's known locally as "University of Never Left Vegas". That perception is erroneous. It's actually pretty good, academically. San Diego State, on the other hand, is only a Carnegie R2 university. It's much closer to Boise State than UNLV is. As with many things, SDSU gets more credit for academics than they really deserve. I'd put USU in the top four in the conference; maybe even top three. One final item. That 2022 research budget for USU does not reflect current reality. USU is home to the Space Dynamics Laboratory, a multidisciplinary lab that designs and builds highly specialized equipment for NASA and the military. In 2023, it was announced that the Air Force research labs had given a ten year, $1 Billion grant to the SDL. That's Billion with a "B". That means an additional $100 Million per year into the USU research budget, bringing the total annual budget to close to $500 Million. The Carnegie research classification is of poor value to evaluate the quality of a school. all an R1 designation means is you offer at least 70 PhD programs (doesn't matter what they are, could literally be finger painting theory) and spent at least $50 million in research expenditures. San Diego State University is an R2 school because it "only" offers 30 PhD programs. If you review the all the general college rating outfits, San Diego State is generally rated much, much better. Literally all Carnegie is, is a measure of the relative size of the university, it speaks nothing to the quality of it. I don't say any of it to defend SDSU or diminish USU, which is a fine university. Just saying Carnegie is a flawed measure of quality. Other R1 Universities that may surprise you: Montana Montana State North Dakota State University Colorado School of Mines The less broadly known UC schools, like Davis, Irvine, Riverside, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz and San Diego. There are 146 R1 universities in the US, it isn't exactly rare company... It's both simpler, and more complicated than that. Total students: USU 29,968 SDSU 37, 539 Doctoral programs: USU 39 SDSU 30 (SDSU includes DPT, AuD, JD, and DNP) Endowment: USU $583.4 Million SDSU $380.1 Million Research budget: USU $390.7 Million SDSU $192.2 Million USU, with 20% fewer students, has more doctoral programs, more research budget, and a bigger endowment. Additionally, California higher ed is deliberately structured to make the "Cal State" schools a lower tier than "University of California at...". They are institutionally hamstrung. All those "lesser known" Cal schools are UC at... That's why they're all R1, and SDSU isn't. That was one of the reasons Cal and UCLA would NEVER have accepted SDSU or Fresno State into the PAC. Again, I'm mystified at people's perception of SDSU. They're not bad. They're just not all that great. |
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Feb 29, 2024 21:19:46 GMT -8
SDSU is hamstrung academically by being in the CSU system instead of the UC system. CSU schools are not chartered as graduate/research/professional schools.
They're "job" is undergraduate education, just like the SUNYAC colleges (Potsdam, Oswego, Geneseo, Buff State, Fredonia, Brockport, et all) in New York State. Graduate/professional/research is for the SUNY schools (Buffalo, Binghamton, New Paltz, Albany, Stony Brook).
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Post by orangeattack on Mar 1, 2024 10:27:59 GMT -8
Regrettable is already here. There is a hole in the bottom of your lifeboat. Sometime in the next two years, the fishing trawler SS MWC is going to steam up and throw you a lifeline. I'd suggest taking it, because the Carnival Cruise Ship SS Big 12 isn't heading this way, ever. But hey, your choice. Our boat's ugly and stinks, but it's seaworthy... After all that had happened, that will happen I'm not sure there will be P4 teams. A new CFP set up might begin a push for lower tier P4, and G5 schools to unite, secede from the "union". The majority of the B10, SEC, B12, ACC will never see the CFP. If the auto bids also include payouts that enrich those 12 teams and diminish the rest if the conference there could be significant backlash. Plus, although they want to think they do, there are other votes that count other than the SEC & B10. Another factor, maybe the NCAA wants to share in the money. Maybe a disgruntled group might like the first NCAA D1 football championships/playoffs. Their own organization and TV revenues to add to the March Madness?? Sh%t is going to hit the fan. How much and how fast the fan is going will determine the "spread". This is the answer. The smug certainty that the MWC will survive is, in a word, stupid. There is so much chaos right now that absolutely NOTHING is a certainty. We don't have to know what the future holds for us right now, there is still plenty of time to let this play out. |
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Post by flyfishinbeav on Mar 1, 2024 10:46:42 GMT -8
So much needs to happen. I think the goal remains to be in the premier Pacific and Mountain time zone conference. If the ACC implodes, that creates a lot of opportunity. California and Stanford should be in the Pacific Conference When the merger occurs (it's going to be some sort of merger), there needs to be a requirement of a certain amount of seating on each side of the field (looking at you SJSU). There needs to be a requirement of a minimum football budget (that's for you New Mexico and Nevada, maybe Wyoming). Some effort has to happen to make CUSA attractive to the Hawaii football program. A similar outreach needs to happen in the American Conference regarding the Air Force Academy. Football is ok there but everything else and women's programs don't fit. Utah and the Arizona's should not be in the Texas & East Coast Conference. Do you try to "organically" create disenchantment within their booster groups? How do you drive a wedge between USC and UCLA? You try to make the Great Lakes Conference as difficult as possible for the Northwest members. You absolutely oppose more than a conference champion getting an automatic berth in a playoff. There is strength in numbers. If 80 or so current D1 members talk about a "university driven football playoff" as opposed to an "NFL light" model, the professional teams will slow way down. How do you start preliminary negotiations with TV networks, Apple, etc with an "idea?" We live in interesting times. I will continue to enjoy and support Oregon State athletics. I wouldn't worry about Wyoming's commitment to football. Its facilities are as good as ours, if not better. It is rebuilding the other half of its stadium, to mirror the half that was rebuilt about 10 years ago. UNM, SJSU and UNLV are the MWC's football question marks, money- and investment-wise. I suspect we will see UNLV's 2023 season was a complete outlier and it will revert to its historical norm this season. I think what people forget is no one lives in Wyoming......so their media market and ability draw fans is capped. However, Wyoming is an awesome place! The people who are there love what they have......Public Land Grant School like us.....I'm down with the pokes |
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Post by flyfishinbeav on Mar 1, 2024 11:06:58 GMT -8
Reading back thru the comments it's impressive how much some you know about the academics, and other particulars, of the MW schools.
If we step back and look at the big picture, none of the academics matters in the world of college athletics anymore. The only things that matter are football, and men's basketball to a lesser extent......and a schools TV market...and national brand potential. I mean look at Furd......if they can't get anyone to care about academics, and Olympic sports, no one can.
We will continue to speculate how the dust will settle. The only thing that we can probably all agree on is this realignment isn't over, and the likes of OSU, Wazzu, G5, and likely some lesser B1G, and SEC schools will be left out in one way, or another.....the eminent implosion of the ACC is kind of what everyone is waiting for now I guess. I'm trying hard to give much of s%#t about any of it.....I just want my school to be competitive wherever we land....oh, and fire Tinkle.
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Post by grayman on Mar 1, 2024 12:01:47 GMT -8
Reading back thru the comments it's impressive how much some you know about the academics, and other particulars, of the MW schools. If we step back and look at the big picture, none of the academics matters in the world of college athletics anymore. The only things that matter are football, and men's basketball to a lesser extent......and a schools TV market...and national brand potential. I mean look at Furd......if they can't get anyone to care about academics, and Olympic sports, no one can. We will continue to speculate how the dust will settle. The only thing that we can probably all agree on is this realignment isn't over, and the likes of OSU, Wazzu, G5, and likely some lesser B1G, and SEC schools will be left out in one way, or another.....the eminent implosion of the ACC is kind of what everyone is waiting for now I guess. I'm trying hard to give much of s%#t about any of it.....I just want my school to be competitive wherever we land....oh, and fire Tinkle. It's (of course) all about money. I don't think most fans like it but it is what it is. And money is what the Pac-2 needs. The situation that college football now faces is, as I said, the separation of the Big Ten and SEC from everyone else. This will happen and the CFP issues will get sorted out in whatever way, but I think we can all expect those two conferences to ensure the biggest cut of the pie. That leaves the middle tier of the Big 12 and ACC (and for now, the Pac-2) to figure out where things stand after FSU and others leave the ACC. IMO, the Pac-2 has to at some point either merge with/join the ACC or face dropping further in the pecking order when it comes to those pie slices. The Pac-12 as we knew it is dead. It's not coming back. And even if Calford returns and SMU were to join, there's a lot of money to be spent just to bring up a few extra teams just to form a Pac-12 lite. If the ACC comes calling and is relatively intact despite losing some top teams, it would add much more stability. The ACC seems to be the more viable possibility than the Big 12, simply because Yormark (as I see it) has decided that if you can't join them, try to build a basketball conference. Although I believe OSU would be a really good fit for the Big 12 in many ways, it just isn't a men's basketball school. I don't think WSU really moves the needle enough overall either. And both schools are in the Pacific Northwest and I think it was much easier for Yormark to go with ASU, UA, Colorado and Utah because of the proximity of those schools. I wouldn't say OSU and WSU are in a great spot right now but I believe the schools -- for now -- hold attributes and the perception of "power conference" schools, at least still close to matching the second tier conferences. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 1, 2024 14:56:03 GMT -8
Reading back thru the comments it's impressive how much some you know about the academics, and other particulars, of the MW schools. If we step back and look at the big picture, none of the academics matters in the world of college athletics anymore. The only things that matter are football, and men's basketball to a lesser extent......and a schools TV market...and national brand potential. I mean look at Furd......if they can't get anyone to care about academics, and Olympic sports, no one can. We will continue to speculate how the dust will settle. The only thing that we can probably all agree on is this realignment isn't over, and the likes of OSU, Wazzu, G5, and likely some lesser B1G, and SEC schools will be left out in one way, or another.....the eminent implosion of the ACC is kind of what everyone is waiting for now I guess. I'm trying hard to give much of s%#t about any of it.....I just want my school to be competitive wherever we land....oh, and fire Tinkle. Academics does not matter, until it does. Stanford cares about academics. If you want to create a nice place for Cal, SMU, and Stanford to land in a Clemson- and Florida Stateless ACC, then you should at least pretend that academics matters, at least a bit. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 1, 2024 15:57:53 GMT -8
The Carnegie research classification is of poor value to evaluate the quality of a school. all an R1 designation means is you offer at least 70 PhD programs (doesn't matter what they are, could literally be finger painting theory) and spent at least $50 million in research expenditures. San Diego State University is an R2 school because it "only" offers 30 PhD programs. If you review the all the general college rating outfits, San Diego State is generally rated much, much better. Literally all Carnegie is, is a measure of the relative size of the university, it speaks nothing to the quality of it. I don't say any of it to defend SDSU or diminish USU, which is a fine university. Just saying Carnegie is a flawed measure of quality. Other R1 Universities that may surprise you: Montana Montana State North Dakota State University Colorado School of Mines The less broadly known UC schools, like Davis, Irvine, Riverside, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz and San Diego. There are 146 R1 universities in the US, it isn't exactly rare company... It's both simpler, and more complicated than that. Total students: USU 29,968 SDSU 37, 539 Doctoral programs: USU 39 SDSU 30 (SDSU includes DPT, AuD, JD, and DNP) Endowment: USU $583.4 Million SDSU $380.1 Million Research budget: USU $390.7 Million SDSU $192.2 Million USU, with 20% fewer students, has more doctoral programs, more research budget, and a bigger endowment. Additionally, California higher ed is deliberately structured to make the "Cal State" schools a lower tier than "University of California at...". They are institutionally hamstrung. All those "lesser known" Cal schools are UC at... That's why they're all R1, and SDSU isn't. That was one of the reasons Cal and UCLA would NEVER have accepted SDSU or Fresno State into the PAC. Again, I'm mystified at people's perception of SDSU. They're not bad. They're just not all that great. Oregon State University: 7 Forestry
8 Marine Engineering
9 Firefighting & Fire Science & Wildlife & Fisheries Management & Conservation
13 Horticulture & Oceanography
19 Agricultural Engineering
20 Agricultural Science
21 Nutrition & Food Science & Zoology
23 Ecology
24 Botany, Geotechnical Engineering, & Toxicology
26 Animal Science, Construction Management & Sensing, & Remote Sensing
27 Entomology
28 Environmental Chemistry & Management & Hydrology & Water Resources Management
31 Agricultural Economics & Petrology & Geochemistry
32 Geology & Nuclear Engineering
33 Meteorology & Atmospheric Science
35 Environmental Economics
37 Renewable Energy Engineering
42 Paleontology
44 Environmental Engineering
45 Geography & Cartography
46 Animation & Veterinary Medicine
48 Radiochemistry
49 Astrobiology
50 Engineering Management & Human-Computer Interaction
San Diego State:
8 Sports/Exercise Science
40 Military Science
41 Graphic Design
43 Organizational/Business/IO Psychology
45 Sports Medicine
Utah State:
16 Hydrology & Water Resource Management
22 Landscape Architecture
28 Forestry & Interior Design
30 Agricultural Engineering & Early Childhood Education
33 Graphic Design
36 Agricultural Science
42 Special Education
43 Animal Science
44 Horticulture
47 Nutrition & Food Science
Even if you take it out to Top 100 programs, I think that Utah State still beats San Diego State. It is also weird, because I looked at several global ranking services, and San Diego State is always ranked higher. Maybe San Diego State offers more top 200 programs?
So, I am kind of with you. Why is San Diego State ranked higher academically? Weird.
Also, Oregon State is still ahead. |
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