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Post by seastape on Sept 12, 2023 21:19:27 GMT -8
The stadium at SJSU gave me pause about joining the MWC, but I'm back on board with going there. Are we going to take a financial hit? Yes. We may lose some programs and great coaches like Jonathan Smith and the irreplaceable Wayne Tinkle. Losing Smith if (when) it happens, will be a serious blow, for us and him. But people are acting like everything will collapse and we will soon have no athletic program. San Diego State built a new stadium, Snapdragon Stadium, completed in 2022. First, SDSU bought the property from the City of San Diego for $88 million, which included the old stadium where the Chargers played before the turncoat Spanos family left for the clean air of Los Angeles. Then they built Snapdragon for $310 million. Snapdragon will house not only Aztec football, but also other sports and professional sports as well. In 2017, Colorado State, desperately trying to get into the Big 12 at the time, completed a new football stadium for $220 million. The first game was played on August 26, 2017, when the Colorado State Rams of the Mountain West defeated the Pac 12 Oregon State Beavers 58-27. In 2013, Boise State completed a $100 million upgrade to its stadium. This past year, San Jose State reduced its stadium capacity by removing the east-side seats and constructed a $56 million athletic facility in its place. There are plans to add east-side seats. In 1991, Fresno State expanded their stadium for 32,000 to over 40,000 in an attempt to lure bigger programs to play there. And it worked...games at home in the past 20 years have included OSU in 2022, Minnesota in 2019, Utah in 2015, Nebraska in 2014, Colorado in 2012, Ole Miss in 2011, Cincinatti (Big East at the time) in 2010, Wisconsin in 2008, uo in 2006, and OSU again in 2003). In 2019, they spent $45 million to upgrade the stadium without expanding it. Since 2012, Utah State has added over $42 million in athletic facilities. Moutain West programs still make it and have fun programs to watch. . But, far more important than money, is keeping a healthy travel schedule for our athletes. No games/series in Georgia and Florida. Keep them out west. Joining the Mountain West will no doubt hamper our ability to compete for championships. Outside of baseball, that hasn't been happening except for the Fiesta Bowl team, a good few years from Women's basketball early in Rueck's tenure and a fluke 2021 men's basketball season. It sucks that this is happening right at the time when Smith is looking like a legitimately outstanding coach with the sky being his limit. But we can still have fun athletic events and enjoy new rivalries. At this point, I would rather adopt the Mountain West than move to the Big 12. The Mountain West Conference is not a financial death knell for its better programs, and OSU can be one of them. Joining the MWC is probably the worst option. Neither OSU nor WSU has stated publicly that they want to do that. They have also spent money on legal teams to help ensure that doesn't happen. The MWC joining the Pac is probably the second best option and the easiest assuming the Pac remainsan entity next year. What OSU and WSU have both said several times publicly is they want to rebuild the Pac as strong as possible. People on message boards tend to catastrophize. If the Pac Whatever still exists this time next year, it seems that the most likely scenario is the MWC joins it - but there are likely other scenarios (and I am not talking joining one of the three Power 5 conferences to the east that have taken the 10 schools that have left), and I bet Barnes, among others, has been working them hard. I tend to believe our administrators when they have publicly stated they want to rebuild the conference several times. I definitely mis-wrote. Instead of "joining the MWC," I should have said "expand the Pac" with the MWC teams. That has been my thought process all along, even before the allure of Pac assets became part of the discussion. And when I say "expand the Pac with the MWC teams," I mean all of them, including Hawaii in football and (hopefully) adding Gonzaga in basketball and other sports. OSU and WSU may ( may) have the opportunity to improve their lot and be a good partner in the process. We could be good to our athletes by limiting their travel, our fans by promoting regional rivalries, and all the teams in the MWC rather than dealing a crushing financial blow to those left behind. I have no desire to do unto others as has been done unto us. I also trust that the OSU and WSU administrators are working hard and are going to get the best deal that the Pac can get. If the two schools can survive with a newly arisen Pac, I will have no criticism, no matter it's make up. What I wrote is merely a statement of what I would like to see, not a judgement. That might not be true. I can be critical and judgmental, but I'll do my best. |
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Post by grayman on Sept 12, 2023 22:32:34 GMT -8
And yes, merging with the MWC makes travel easier.
But IMO that's been overemphasized by those who want OSU with the MWC.
And you can't just pretend that having four former Pac-12 teams and BYU wouldn't make a difference if OSU and WSU joined.
In that case you're traveling to Arizona twice, Utah twice, Colorado and WSU.
You also have to go to TCU (a 3 hour, 40 minute nonstop to DFW). Kansas and Kansas State (a 3:15 nonstop to KC plus relatively short drives). Houston (a 4 hour nonstop).
Texas Tech requires a stop in Denver and Baylor most likely a 1.5 hour bus ride from DFW. But none of those trips are going to total more than two hours longer than flights and transportation to almost all of the MWC schools except San Jose State and Boise State (unless you bus to Boise).
Yes, there are a few long trips. Iowa State is a 5 hour flight (stop in Denver) with a 40-minute drive. Oklahoma State is a 4:55 flight to OKC and about an hour drive. Cincinnati (6 hours with one stop), Central Florida (5:35 nonstop to Orlando) but both just have drives within the city.
West Virginia is easily the worst (6:30 with one stop to Pittsburgh, then extra time for drive).
But compare those to Wyoming (a 5 hour flight with the shortest layover in Denver...other options are over 7 hours) or Hawaii (just under 6 hours nonstop).
So we're talking for the worst trips about 3-4 hours longer each way. It's very unlikely that they will add days for travel time with maybe one or two exceptions. So what's really the issue here? Maybe some of them will actually use the down time for homework (pretty sure some teams already do that).
And as I've said a few times before, they can easily arrange travel to make it easier on the schools.
And yes, this separates the Big 12 from the other three conferences, which would be way worse (and will be for UW, UO, Stanford and Cal).
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Post by rgeorge on Sept 12, 2023 22:51:15 GMT -8
The time difference in travel is enormous when you take into account more than just football.
And, Hawaii is football only. In the B12 there is no guarantee they would do divisions that would allow OSU, WSU, Utah, Colorado, Zona, ASU to play every year. Do those "close" games might not be there.
The supposed inconsequential travel is only offered by those who still think the B12 is a viable option.
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Post by grayman on Sept 13, 2023 8:43:20 GMT -8
The time difference in travel is enormous when you take into account more than just football. And, Hawaii is football only. In the B12 there is no guarantee they would do divisions that would allow OSU, WSU, Utah, Colorado, Zona, ASU to play every year. Do those "close" games might not be there. The supposed inconsequential travel is only offered by those who still think the B12 is a viable option. I travel a fair amount and often to cities that have a two-hour time difference. I'm a little tired when I get there and maybe a little bit of the next day. Granted, I'm not competing in a sporting event but I'm also not a college age athlete. The extra hour when you go to the East Coast does matter, though. You can say that there's no guarantee that they would break into divisions but it makes much more sense because you would have added seven teams (BYU, too) that are west of the Big 12's old footprint. And it's not all that difficult for gymnastics and wrestling and potentially even baseball and softball because you can eliminate a lot of the longer trips by going to multi-team meets, which are already done in gymnastics and wrestling, along with mini-tourneys in baseball and softball. The rest of the schedule is regional. You have men's and women's basketball and soccer and volleyball to schedule regionally. Not to mention that in your wonderful world of the MWC, there is no men's soccer, so they will have to play in another conference. And there's few gymnastics teams and wrestling teams, so they will have to schedule outside of the MWC. But they'll probably wind up eventually having to drop some of those sports anyway.... |
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Sept 13, 2023 9:13:19 GMT -8
The time difference in travel is enormous when you take into account more than just football. And, Hawaii is football only. In the B12 there is no guarantee they would do divisions that would allow OSU, WSU, Utah, Colorado, Zona, ASU to play every year. Do those "close" games might not be there. The supposed inconsequential travel is only offered by those who still think the B12 is a viable option. I travel a fair amount and often to cities that have a two-hour time difference. I'm a little tired when I get there and maybe a little bit of the next day. Granted, I'm not competing in a sporting event but I'm also not a college age athlete. The extra hour when you go to the East Coast does matter, though. You can say that there's no guarantee that they would break into divisions but it makes much more sense because you would have added seven teams (BYU, too) that are west of the Big 12's old footprint. And it's not all that difficult for gymnastics and wrestling and potentially even baseball and softball because you can eliminate a lot of the longer trips by going to multi-team meets, which are already done in gymnastics and wrestling, along with mini-tourneys in baseball and softball. The rest of the schedule is regional. You have men's and women's basketball and soccer and volleyball to schedule regionally. Not to mention that in your wonderful world of the MWC, there is no men's soccer, so they will have to play in another conference. And there's few gymnastics teams and wrestling teams, so they will have to schedule outside of the MWC. But they'll probably wind up eventually having to drop some of those sports anyway.... You brought up multi-team meets. Apparently the ACC has mentioned considering that for football because of the cross country travel. I think that would really backfire for Stanford and Cal fans. They proposed meeting in Dallas or thereabouts for cross country games… that potentially means nearly 1500 miles of travel just to get to a “home” game. It was in the news for a couple of days, been quiet since, maybe they thought it out. |
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Post by grayman on Sept 13, 2023 9:22:54 GMT -8
I travel a fair amount and often to cities that have a two-hour time difference. I'm a little tired when I get there and maybe a little bit of the next day. Granted, I'm not competing in a sporting event but I'm also not a college age athlete. The extra hour when you go to the East Coast does matter, though. You can say that there's no guarantee that they would break into divisions but it makes much more sense because you would have added seven teams (BYU, too) that are west of the Big 12's old footprint. And it's not all that difficult for gymnastics and wrestling and potentially even baseball and softball because you can eliminate a lot of the longer trips by going to multi-team meets, which are already done in gymnastics and wrestling, along with mini-tourneys in baseball and softball. The rest of the schedule is regional. You have men's and women's basketball and soccer and volleyball to schedule regionally. Not to mention that in your wonderful world of the MWC, there is no men's soccer, so they will have to play in another conference. And there's few gymnastics teams and wrestling teams, so they will have to schedule outside of the MWC. But they'll probably wind up eventually having to drop some of those sports anyway.... You brought up multi-team meets. Apparently the ACC has mentioned considering that for football because of the cross country travel. I think that would really backfire for Stanford and Cal fans. They proposed meeting in Dallas or thereabouts for cross country games… that potentially means nearly 1500 miles of travel just to get to a “home” game. It was in the news for a couple of days, been quiet since, maybe they thought it out. Yeah, they supposedly are going to use SMU as a neutral site for Stanford and Cal's Olympic sports to compete without making full cross country trips. I haven't seen anything about playing football games in that way. I doubt that would work very well. |
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Sept 13, 2023 9:45:50 GMT -8
You brought up multi-team meets. Apparently the ACC has mentioned considering that for football because of the cross country travel. I think that would really backfire for Stanford and Cal fans. They proposed meeting in Dallas or thereabouts for cross country games… that potentially means nearly 1500 miles of travel just to get to a “home” game. It was in the news for a couple of days, been quiet since, maybe they thought it out. Yeah, they supposedly are going to use SMU as a neutral site for Stanford and Cal's Olympic sports to compete without making full cross country trips. I haven't seen anything about playing football games in that way. I doubt that would work very well. Ah, Olympic sports makes more sense, especially for the fewer number of fans affected, but it still eliminates home meets for athletes, and gives several teams a bit of a travel advantage. They probably should hold them in Minneapolis (or Winnipeg) to help equalize the travel for everyone. |
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Post by rgeorge on Sept 13, 2023 10:19:50 GMT -8
The time difference in travel is enormous when you take into account more than just football. And, Hawaii is football only. In the B12 there is no guarantee they would do divisions that would allow OSU, WSU, Utah, Colorado, Zona, ASU to play every year. Do those "close" games might not be there. The supposed inconsequential travel is only offered by those who still think the B12 is a viable option. I travel a fair amount and often to cities that have a two-hour time difference. I'm a little tired when I get there and maybe a little bit of the next day. Granted, I'm not competing in a sporting event but I'm also not a college age athlete. The extra hour when you go to the East Coast does matter, though. You can say that there's no guarantee that they would break into divisions but it makes much more sense because you would have added seven teams (BYU, too) that are west of the Big 12's old footprint. And it's not all that difficult for gymnastics and wrestling and potentially even baseball and softball because you can eliminate a lot of the longer trips by going to multi-team meets, which are already done in gymnastics and wrestling, along with mini-tourneys in baseball and softball. The rest of the schedule is regional. You have men's and women's basketball and soccer and volleyball to schedule regionally. Not to mention that in your wonderful world of the MWC, there is no men's soccer, so they will have to play in another conference. And there's few gymnastics teams and wrestling teams, so they will have to schedule outside of the MWC. But they'll probably wind up eventually having to drop some of those sports anyway.... There are no mini "events" in baseball once conference play begins. There is no conference I know of that has such a thing to save travel. As far as gymnastics and wrestling they have many/most(?) of their competitions now in events outside of conference as in both there is really no true Pac12. For soccer it would be an easy fix and most of their nonconference matches are already regular west coast foes. There can be no sports cut to stay D1. This has been mentioned and answered numerous times. And, OSU is not dropping below D1. Again... the B12 isn't adding any time soon, hence OSU needs a viable solution now to begin the process of future schedules and budgets. The MWC will not merge without security, so the language of the merger will likely have very specific timelines and withdrawal penalties. An easy stipulation for OSU/WSU to agree to for a solidified conference/future negotiating stance. The travel expenditure would be prohibitive over what a MWC merger would be. The remaining Pac12 revenue, whatever it is and assuming OSU and WSU will control it, would be gone if the B12 came calling tomorrow. Reduced B12 payout until the current ESPN/Fox extension is up in '30-31. It has been said it is unclear how much ESPN/Fox increased the deal to move to (16) teams, BUT it wasn't near pro rata amounts. Adding more teams would reduce money to all other teams again... not going to happen unless ESPN and Fox suddenly change their stance. Add that moving means splitting Pac12 funds (12) ways, and substantial increase in travel budgets would be a sure fire way to financial ruin. So, such a move not only creates a potential financial nightmare, but it also helps the traitors fund their moves. |
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Post by grayman on Sept 13, 2023 11:11:11 GMT -8
I travel a fair amount and often to cities that have a two-hour time difference. I'm a little tired when I get there and maybe a little bit of the next day. Granted, I'm not competing in a sporting event but I'm also not a college age athlete. The extra hour when you go to the East Coast does matter, though. You can say that there's no guarantee that they would break into divisions but it makes much more sense because you would have added seven teams (BYU, too) that are west of the Big 12's old footprint. And it's not all that difficult for gymnastics and wrestling and potentially even baseball and softball because you can eliminate a lot of the longer trips by going to multi-team meets, which are already done in gymnastics and wrestling, along with mini-tourneys in baseball and softball. The rest of the schedule is regional. You have men's and women's basketball and soccer and volleyball to schedule regionally. Not to mention that in your wonderful world of the MWC, there is no men's soccer, so they will have to play in another conference. And there's few gymnastics teams and wrestling teams, so they will have to schedule outside of the MWC. But they'll probably wind up eventually having to drop some of those sports anyway.... There are no mini "events" in baseball once conference play begins. There is no conference I know of that has such a thing to save travel. As far as gymnastics and wrestling they have many/most(?) of their competitions now in events outside of conference as in both there is really no true Pac12. For soccer it would be an easy fix and most of their nonconference matches are already regular west coast foes. That doesn't mean they can't go that route moving forward. Lots of change for the college sports landscape going on. Gymnastics has eight schools competing in the Pac-12, so yes, they have a "true Pac-12." You are correct about wrestling but they will have to increase the nonconference scheduling.There can be no sports cut to stay D1. This has been mentioned and answered numerous times. And, OSU is not dropping below D1. You are correct. I added the remark to be snide and I shouldn't have done so. Again... the B12 isn't adding any time soon, hence OSU needs a viable solution now to begin the process of future schedules and budgets. The MWC will not merge without security, so the language of the merger will likely have very specific timelines and withdrawal penalties. An easy stipulation for OSU/WSU to agree to for a solidified conference/future negotiating stance. The travel expenditure would be prohibitive over what a MWC merger would be. The remaining Pac12 revenue, whatever it is and assuming OSU and WSU will control it, would be gone if the B12 came calling tomorrow. I don't think the Big 12 is going to come calling tomorrow. But if it did and OSU and WSU determined that it was worth making the jump, then they would, IMO. And I believe that if OSU and WSU had control of the Pac and it was after Aug. 1, they could retain most, if not all, of the non-cash assets and at least some portion of the payments even if they dissolve the conference. Disagree on travel expenditures because as I stated before, there would be regional scheduling for all sports except probably football. Reduced B12 payout until the current ESPN/Fox extension is up in '30-31. It has been said it is unclear how much ESPN/Fox increased the deal to move to (16) teams, BUT it wasn't near pro rata amounts. Adding more teams would reduce money to all other teams again... not going to happen unless ESPN and Fox suddenly change their stance. Add that moving means splitting Pac12 funds (12) ways, and substantial increase in travel budgets would be a sure fire way to financial ruin. According to reports via actual journalists (including ESPN) those teams are getting $31.7 million...$20 million via the ESPN pro rata deal and $11.7 million via Fox. Adding OSU and WSU would not reduce money to the other teams. It would be a question of how much ESPN and Fox were willing to pay to bring them in.So, such a move not only creates a potential financial nightmare, but it also helps the traitors fund their moves. |
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Post by Judge Smails on Sept 13, 2023 11:56:22 GMT -8
There are no mini "events" in baseball once conference play begins. There is no conference I know of that has such a thing to save travel. As far as gymnastics and wrestling they have many/most(?) of their competitions now in events outside of conference as in both there is really no true Pac12. For soccer it would be an easy fix and most of their nonconference matches are already regular west coast foes. That doesn't mean they can't go that route moving forward. Lots of change for the college sports landscape going on. Gymnastics has eight schools competing in the Pac-12, so yes, they have a "true Pac-12." You are correct about wrestling but they will have to increase the nonconference scheduling.There can be no sports cut to stay D1. This has been mentioned and answered numerous times. And, OSU is not dropping below D1. You are correct. I added the remark to be snide and I shouldn't have done so. Again... the B12 isn't adding any time soon, hence OSU needs a viable solution now to begin the process of future schedules and budgets. The MWC will not merge without security, so the language of the merger will likely have very specific timelines and withdrawal penalties. An easy stipulation for OSU/WSU to agree to for a solidified conference/future negotiating stance. The travel expenditure would be prohibitive over what a MWC merger would be. The remaining Pac12 revenue, whatever it is and assuming OSU and WSU will control it, would be gone if the B12 came calling tomorrow. I don't think the Big 12 is going to come calling tomorrow. But if it did and OSU and WSU determined that it was worth making the jump, then they would, IMO. And I believe that if OSU and WSU had control of the Pac and it was after Aug. 1, they could retain most, if not all, of the non-cash assets and at least some portion of the payments even if they dissolve the conference. Disagree on travel expenditures because as I stated before, there would be regional scheduling for all sports except probably football. Reduced B12 payout until the current ESPN/Fox extension is up in '30-31. It has been said it is unclear how much ESPN/Fox increased the deal to move to (16) teams, BUT it wasn't near pro rata amounts. Adding more teams would reduce money to all other teams again... not going to happen unless ESPN and Fox suddenly change their stance. Add that moving means splitting Pac12 funds (12) ways, and substantial increase in travel budgets would be a sure fire way to financial ruin. According to reports via actual journalists (including ESPN) those teams are getting $31.7 million...$20 million via the ESPN pro rata deal and $11.7 million via Fox. Adding OSU and WSU would not reduce money to the other teams. It would be a question of how much ESPN and Fox were willing to pay to bring them in.So, such a move not only creates a potential financial nightmare, but it also helps the traitors fund their moves. If we leave after this season, the assets would be split amongst all remaining teams. We can't leave with everyone else and then say everything belongs to us. The conference has to go on after 8/1/24 or there is no question that the assets would be divided equally. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Sept 13, 2023 12:03:19 GMT -8
If we leave after this season, the assets would be split amongst all remaining teams. We can't leave with everyone else and then say everything belongs to us. The conference has to go on after 8/1/24 or there is no question that the assets would be divided equally. If we "leave," yes. But we could merge the Pac-12 with a second conference and theoretically keep the money.........in theory. |
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Post by Judge Smails on Sept 13, 2023 12:05:26 GMT -8
If we leave after this season, the assets would be split amongst all remaining teams. We can't leave with everyone else and then say everything belongs to us. The conference has to go on after 8/1/24 or there is no question that the assets would be divided equally. If we "leave," yes. But we could merge the Pac-12 with a second conference and theoretically keep the money.........in theory. We aren't doing a reverse merger with the BIG 12. He was only talking in regards to the BIG 12. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Sept 13, 2023 12:33:09 GMT -8
If we "leave," yes. But we could merge the Pac-12 with a second conference and theoretically keep the money.........in theory. We aren't doing a reverse merger with the BIG 12. He was only talking in regards to the BIG 12. You could do an actual merger with the Big 12, though. Basically negotiate a lower rate and use the leftover money from the Pac-12 to backfill. You would need a real lawsuit, though, to settle that issue. But, at this point, pretty much everything should still be on the table. |
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Post by grayman on Sept 13, 2023 12:33:18 GMT -8
If we leave after this season, the assets would be split amongst all remaining teams. We can't leave with everyone else and then say everything belongs to us. The conference has to go on after 8/1/24 or there is no question that the assets would be divided equally. You crossed this out and then said basically the same thing: And I believe that if OSU and WSU had control of the Pac and it was after Aug. 1, they could retain most, if not all, of the non-cash assets and at least some portion of the payments even if they dissolve the conference. But I kind of botched what I was trying to get at about the non-cash assets...which was that OSU and WSU would use the non-cash assets as leverage to, for example, get into a power conference. And then dissolve the conference. So they would retain a portion of the non-cash assets after that if there were any left over. The "most, if not all" part would most likely not happen. Not even sure why I put it that way. Probably lack of sleep. |
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Post by ag87 on Sept 13, 2023 12:39:17 GMT -8
I think the end game for OSU and WSU is a west coast conference that has, for the most part, the current Pac-12 members. It would also include at a minimum a similar media rights pay out. How do you get there? How much leverage do we (OSU and WSU) really have? I'm sure it is "some." From the comments above, I'd guess Casey's confidence comes from Barnes, maybe directly.
I believe ESPN and Fox sports executives want something like this also. In reality, the only sport that matters for money is football. I think the money difference for a WSU-UCLA basketball game vs an OhSU-UCLA basketball game is negated by the winter travel headaches and expenses. If there is a UCLA-OhSU game that means that there is also a Northwestern - UCLA game also and no one cares about that.
In my mind, the Big10 is exponentially stronger than the B12. I believe there will be a western conference of USC, UCLA, Cal, Stanford, UW, UO, UA, ASU, and Utah. The maybe's are OSU and WSU. And then if 12 is the right number maybe SanDiegoState or Colorado State. I think Colorado fits with the 2nd tier Texas and plains states schools. That future western conference will be for all sports except football. Football will be maybe six games within the west group and two or three intersectional games. This future western conference may be a division of the B10.
I see our biggest task at this time is to position ourselves to not be left out of the future premier western conference. The trick for Oliver Luck et al is to convince the B10 that they will be left out when the southern california schools realize sending their vollyball and softball teams to Ohio and Michigan (and for Penn State, Maryland and so on to not send their teams to the Pacific time zone) is not worth it. To not be left out, the path is to include OSU, WSU and start working at bringing the Arizona's and Utah along in the not distant future.
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