|
Post by skyrider on Jan 30, 2023 7:40:32 GMT -8
I believe Jelena has been in the program for 3 years now. After 3 years when posting up she still has not learned to receive a pass up high (shoulder level or above) and not lower the ball to waist level and/or lower the ball to waist level and dribble.
So often the ball is stolen from her, she is tied up into a jump ball, or she is unable to take a good shot often from just a few feet away from the basket.
The skills necessary to correct these flaws do not require some over the top athletic talent. They require (a) coaching and (b) willingness of the player to spend the time and effort to accept the coaching and apply it.
This is not meant to be a criticism of Jelena.
It is meant to be a strong criticism of the OSU coaching staff.
To me it is a representative example of what has gone wrong with the OSU program over the past few years.
Another example is the situation with TVO. She has not only not improved this year, she has actually lost ground.
Look at the past and the many (Kat Tudor, Marie Gulich, Ruth Hamblin, Jamie Weisner, Gabby Hanson, Aleah Goodman) players who improved tremendously during that time at OSU.
I believe something is significantly missing from the player development portion of the OSU program.
I would be interested in the comments of the group since I am often way off base and appreciate getting back on track if that is the case.
|
|
|
Post by beaveragain on Jan 30, 2023 8:36:47 GMT -8
Talia's 3 point shooting % is down, but every other other statistic you can think of is better. Rebounding, assists, TO's, steals, blocks, 2 point shooting % etc. So because her three's aren't hitting she's not getting better? Aleah's 3 % shooting went down 7% in her Soph. year and Talia's is only down 5%. I think your concerns over her development are unrealistic.
|
|
|
Post by TheGlove on Jan 30, 2023 8:52:27 GMT -8
Regarding Jelena's development, how much falls on the player? I don't attend practices and I bet you don't either, so how can you state that the coaches aren't coaching her to keep the ball high? It's Basketball 101.
So for me Jelena's issues fall under your (b) choice, player willingness/ability to be coached.
Even if the coaches aren't drilling this into her head, you'd think she'd learn it herself by experience (gee, every time I bring the ball below my waist it gets stolen) or watching other "bigs."
She's tall and very unathletic. She's improved, but the improvement rate is glacial.
|
|
|
Post by beaverstever on Jan 30, 2023 9:39:09 GMT -8
When things aren't going well, fans pile on. SR was a brilliant coach not long ago, and now is apparently awful, with his ego not allowing him to adapt to the changing game and/or player strengths.
I don't really know exactly what's gone wrong, but here's my view:
- While there are examples of good development historical, there are other examples of players that didn't improve much over their career - we don't think about them much because they never evolved to more than role players. Some players we expected to develop that left haven't developed much elsewhere either, although I'd put Taya largely in that category. Player development has a big component of a) the player has a physicality that has a dramatic upward ceiling relative to their current raw skills and b) has the mental capacity to really slow the game down and develop really refined, subtle skills. Marie was a big example of a), and it was clear she had a high ceiling early in her career due to how quick her feet were relative to her size. To her and the staff's credit, she realized it. Aleah was an example of b); no significant physical upside from where she came in as a frosh, but developed ways to get her shot off quicker and create space with consistency (very difficult to do), developed an effective slashing game to help open up her outside game. Both of those are pretty rare trajectories anywhere.
- On the complaints of Rueck controlling the offensive play-calling, we saw the reverse of that with CR and WT, where they (at times) opened up the game for the players to freelance and utilize their individual skills, and everyone complained that the offense was indecipherable and non-existent. Rueck does indeed prefer to maximize odds of every possession, and generally has never had players that can be effective in a more wide-open offensive system. I'm sure he probably does want players that can recognize a unique opportunity and ad hoc opportunistic offense, but he doesn't have players that can do that well today. And I agree that he's also unlikely to successfully recruit ones that can given his system.
- As for TvO, I believe her issues are mental. She played the best when she had Aleah on the court with clear responsibility for running the show and being the player responsible for making it happen, and there was little expected of her being effectively still a HS player. Aleah's former role has been on her shoulders now since last year, and she's often pressing as a result. I disagree that her stats are generally improved - she is more involved in the game overall, but her efficiency, especially in big games, as not been good. I thought adding Timea would help her efficiency, with another player that can go and get off a shot when we need a bucket. That hasn't happened yet, and I do think a lot of that is not the coaches at this point, but it will take time as well.
At the end of the day, it ultimately falls on the coaches regardless. I don't know if the problem is that the coaches aren't evolving with the game or if the system just isn't as effective with the current group of players. What does seem to be clear is that they struck gold historically with a few players that are singularly program difference-makers in Sydney, Mic and Aleah, both from a skill and cultural leadership. It simply may be the we don't have a player like that on the roster, and a lot of our success historically was simply due to landing those types.
|
|
|
Post by speakthetruth on Jan 30, 2023 9:56:43 GMT -8
Since 2014-15 the pac12 finishes are 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 8th, today 10th. The only person that has been there the entire stretch? Hmmm who could that be? It would be one thing if there was a 3rd place finish then 2nd, then 5th then 3rd. But the downward trend can't be ignored. It's in freefall. Does Some body have a parachute?
|
|
|
Post by skyrider on Jan 30, 2023 10:10:48 GMT -8
Thanks to all who have responded. I always gain new insights and perspectives from your insightful comments.
I am apprehensive that because of Coach Rueck's long term contract we may be in for several very lean years ahead.
I hope I am wrong!
|
|
|
Post by speakthetruth on Jan 30, 2023 10:14:52 GMT -8
I am surprised that rueck got the extension a year ago. Apparently barnes didn't look at the trend.
|
|
|
Post by rmancarl on Jan 30, 2023 11:13:32 GMT -8
When things aren't going well, fans pile on. SR was a brilliant coach not long ago, and now is apparently awful, with his ego not allowing him to adapt to the changing game and/or player strengths. I don't really know exactly what's gone wrong, but here's my view: - While there are examples of good development historical, there are other examples of players that didn't improve much over their career - we don't think about them much because they never evolved to more than role players. Some players we expected to develop that left haven't developed much elsewhere either, although I'd put Taya largely in that category. Player development has a big component of a) the player has a physicality that has a dramatic upward ceiling relative to their current raw skills and b) has the mental capacity to really slow the game down and develop really refined, subtle skills. Marie was a big example of a), and it was clear she had a high ceiling early in her career due to how quick her feet were relative to her size. To her and the staff's credit, she realized it. Aleah was an example of b); no significant physical upside from where she came in as a frosh, but developed ways to get her shot off quicker and create space with consistency (very difficult to do), developed an effective slashing game to help open up her outside game. Both of those are pretty rare trajectories anywhere. - On the complaints of Rueck controlling the offensive play-calling, we saw the reverse of that with CR and WT, where they (at times) opened up the game for the players to freelance and utilize their individual skills, and everyone complained that the offense was indecipherable and non-existent. Rueck does indeed prefer to maximize odds of every possession, and generally has never had players that can be effective in a more wide-open offensive system. I'm sure he probably does want players that can recognize a unique opportunity and ad hoc opportunistic offense, but he doesn't have players that can do that well today. And I agree that he's also unlikely to successfully recruit ones that can given his system. - As for TvO, I believe her issues are mental. She played the best when she had Aleah on the court with clear responsibility for running the show and being the player responsible for making it happen, and there was little expected of her being effectively still a HS player. Aleah's former role has been on her shoulders now since last year, and she's often pressing as a result. I disagree that her stats are generally improved - she is more involved in the game overall, but her efficiency, especially in big games, as not been good. I thought adding Timea would help her efficiency, with another player that can go and get off a shot when we need a bucket. That hasn't happened yet, and I do think a lot of that is not the coaches at this point, but it will take time as well. At the end of the day, it ultimately falls on the coaches regardless. I don't know if the problem is that the coaches aren't evolving with the game or if the system just isn't as effective with the current group of players. What does seem to be clear is that they struck gold historically with a few players that are singularly program difference-makers in Sydney, Mic and Aleah, both from a skill and cultural leadership. It simply may be the we don't have a player like that on the roster, and a lot of our success historically was simply due to landing those types. Nice job with this post.
|
|
|
Post by grayman on Jan 30, 2023 12:09:37 GMT -8
IMO it's a combination of factors. Rueck's offense has been losing effectiveness in a women's college basketball landscape that values more dynamic, high-tempo offenses and build around players with speed/quickness and athletic ability. Rueck recruits players to fit his system. He often focuses on very tall posts (which tend to lack athletic ability) and guards that really fit at the 2 spot and often tries to play them at PG. The overall result is a roster that lacks overall speed/quickness compared to other teams. In the past he hit big with players like Wiese, Pivec, Gulich, Weisner and yes, Slocum who were already playing at a pretty advanced level from the start. And he was able to fill out around those players with Katie Williams, Deven Hunter, Taya Corosdale, Gabby Hanson, Kolbie Orum, Kat Tudor and Aleah Goodman and Ruth Hamblin (both developed into top level players after a couple years), among others. Slocum was an outlier at PG, being more of a "true" PG than a 2 guard moved over to the point. After she left, I believe the optics that created combined with the lack of interest among PG recruits in playing in Rueck's offense created an ongoing problem at the position for the Beavers. I don't believe player development has been an issue for Rueck until the last couple of seasons, but it has become an issue because of player defections and constantly dealing with that turnover. The problem is enhanced due to the change in the game nationally and the effect on Rueck's ability to recruit the type of depth he was not long ago. The current team is struggling because his offense is no longer effective at a consistent level (and his inflexibility in making any kind of changes) combined with TVO's shooting struggles, a lack of a true PG, lack of team speed and the overall youth of the team.
|
|
orman58
Freshman
Posts: 22
Grad Year: 1972
|
Post by orman58 on Jan 30, 2023 12:39:08 GMT -8
The game is changing the same way women's high school changed in Oregon.
My wife was a math teacher and had never played bb. Her high school, 6A, in the Metro area decided to form a women's program. No men takers as coaches. So, my wife as JV coach and a woman school councilor as the Head Coach volunteered. As a recreational player for several years, I was my wife's unacknowledged guru. lol The girls had to learn to dribble, shoot, rebound in the same way we teach 3rd and 4th graders today. There weren't many wins.
Fast forward to Smith arriving at Oregon City. He convinced his girls to play like boys. Pressure the ball, reach in, put hands on the ball handler, bump, fast break, and move people out from under the basket. At the same time the referees allowed that added contact. What style won the state championship for many years until other coaches started using the same tactics and more athletic girls arrived on the scene at all schools. O.C.
I've been watching OSU since maybe 2014/2015. There used to be only Connecticut (Oregon City) winning the tournaments. Now the coaching and talent is dispersed. The game has not become racehorse, but it's speed has picked up. OSU needs to enter the way things are, not how they have been.
|
|
orman58
Freshman
Posts: 22
Grad Year: 1972
|
Post by orman58 on Jan 30, 2023 12:48:14 GMT -8
About players and coaching development. I agree that there is many self help videos to watch. Lots of film of Walton, Jabbar, Akeem to see what they did. I'm guessing there is someone who has replaced Pete Newel as a big man coach on video.
That said, anyone remember a kid named Steve Johnson? He couldn't play a high school schedule due to religious beliefs. I think he moved out of his house senior year so he could play one year of high school. Somehow he learned to anchor a number one college team, and lead the nation in field goal percentage. I don't think he learned this on his own.
I do think that came from a coaching staff headed by a guy named Ralph Miller. If my memory serves me, I don't remember that staff having a big man coach.
|
|
|
Post by grad1973 on Jan 30, 2023 21:08:04 GMT -8
I am surprised that rueck got the extension a year ago. Apparently barnes didn't look at the trend. Most of the best teams wouldn't think about that kind of trend they move on if they fear any kind of a spiral. We could be missing it. This trend is setting a new pressidence. This shouldn't be about any one person but what we owe to the program itself. We all know Rueck is a tremendous person. It's possible he has peaked. This is not NAIA but the big leagues.
|
|
|
Post by boydo on Jan 31, 2023 1:01:17 GMT -8
I believe a big part of the problem is a lack of three-point shooters. TVO has been inconsistent and the starting lineup doesn't force the defense to respect the outside shot. Timea has been shooting very well but doesn't get as much time as Mannen or Aaron. In the Cal game the starters all played 25 minutes or more. Mannen had 35 minutes and would have had more if she didn't foul out. I think she is playing more minutes than anyone else on the team. The lack of three-point shooting allows the defense to collapse into the middle and double team the post. Blacklock and Hansford haven't done much scoring, but at least the defenders respect their ability to shoot and are less likely to sag into the middle. Mannen is a very inspirational player but she is getting more minutes than anyone else including Gardiner, Beers and Marotte (obviously out for the Cal game). The team looked tired against Cal but I think the lineup rarely includes the top five players.
|
|
|
Post by sparty on Jan 31, 2023 6:43:14 GMT -8
I am surprised that rueck got the extension a year ago. Apparently barnes didn't look at the trend. Most of the best teams wouldn't think about that kind of trend they move on if they fear any kind of a spiral. We could be missing it. This trend is setting a new pressidence. This shouldn't be about any one person but what we owe to the program itself. We all know Rueck is a tremendous person. It's possible he has peaked. This is not NAIA but the big leagues. He is not going anywhere. He has been "annoited" by Barnes.
|
|
mb
Freshman
Posts: 403
|
Post by mb on Jan 31, 2023 10:32:46 GMT -8
Since 2014-15 the pac12 finishes are 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 8th, today 10th. The only person that has been there the entire stretch? Hmmm who could that be? It would be one thing if there was a 3rd place finish then 2nd, then 5th then 3rd. But the downward trend can't be ignored. It's in freefall. Does Some body have a parachute? Katie (Baker) Faulkner joined the Beavers in the summer of 2016 and left after the 2020-2021 season. I wonder how much impact she had? MB.
|
|