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Post by rmancarl on Jan 31, 2023 16:01:43 GMT -8
All good discussion points, but I think even more than any coaching or style of play issues, it's just not having the players. (Which is on the coaches, I know). IMO change nothing else, but give this team Syd Weise, and they are battling Stanford for the title. Change nothing else but give this team Aleah Goodman, it's battling for home court in the tourney. Scott wasn't a genius when he was winning the titles, and he's not an idiot now. When he was winning the title, he had an all-pac-12 post, and 2 all-pac-12 guards with complementary pieces. Beers and Gardiner are future all-pac-12 level players. TVO can be if she's not the lead guard. IMO the most important thing for the future of the program, is minimizing loses to the portal. Give this team Goforth right now, and we would all be a lot happier. Nice post whosh15. I think many on this board don't realize how close this team is to being a NCAA tourney team. Not necessarily a contender, but a tourney team. In particular, if you added one more scoring threat, in particular a shooter, you have several more wins. By the way, TVO has already been voted to the all-Pac12 team last season. |
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Post by skyrider on Jan 31, 2023 16:13:51 GMT -8
mancari,
Thanks for your input to the thread. You stated "if you added one more scoring threat, in particular a shooter, you have several more wins".
Yes and as a wise man once stated "If wishes were horses, we could all ride!".
In regards to your comment "TVO has already been voted to the all-Pac12 team last season", I would counter with "yes but that was last season and she seems to have fallen off significantly in probably the areas the Beavs need her the most (total scoring and three point scoring).
You are spot on with " I think many on this board don't realize how close this team is to being a NCAA tourney team. Not necessarily a contender, but a tourney team". Once again an old saying comes to mind "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades"
What are your thoughts on my premise that somehow player development is just not what it once was. If so what does OSU need to do to correct the problem?
Go Beavs
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Post by beaveragain on Jan 31, 2023 16:15:20 GMT -8
To me, the major determinant of whether OSU current WBB staff is developing player skills when they are in the program will be the progress of TVO, Raegan, and Timea. Clearly all three are not limited in terms of physical ability, intelligence, and basketball experience.
Just as clearly in the case of Raegan and Timea both are post players (although Timea can clearly play the four and probably the three position also) so there are proven instruction, techniques, etc. for post play development.
I believe Jelena's lack of progress in many areas is a big negative in terms of player development in this area.
Hopefully in the future, Raegan and Timea's progress will indicate a big positive for the OSU Coaches in terms of player development.
"I believe Jelena's lack of progress in many areas is a big negative in terms of player development in this area." Jelena's lack of progress? With a 50% increase in shots she has had a 1% drop in shooting %, not unusual. Her rebounding has gone from 4.8 to 8.2/game, her assists have gone from 0.5 to 2.0/game, and her blocks have gone from 0.6 to 1.5. I'd want some lack of progress like that please! |
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Post by skyrider on Jan 31, 2023 17:01:06 GMT -8
beaveragain,
Yes, you make a strong case for Jelena in terms of progress. However I still feel that after three years in the program she could be physically much stronger and have corrected some of the obvious shortcomings (like lowering the ball to waist level and/or dribbling the ball when she receives it in the post area). These are not things that require monster athletic talent to achieve. Once again, my focus here is not on being critical of Jelena, but questioning whether the Coaching staff is doing their due diligence in terms of player development.
Thanks for your excellent input!
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Post by ricke71 on Jan 31, 2023 17:15:20 GMT -8
beaveragain, Yes, you make a strong case for Jelena in terms of progress. However I still feel that after three years in the program she could be physically much stronger and have corrected some of the obvious shortcomings (like lowering the ball to waist level and/or dribbling the ball when she receives it in the post area). These are not things that require monster athletic talent to achieve. Once again, my focus here is not on being critical of Jelena, but questioning whether the Coaching staff is doing their due diligence in terms of player development. Thanks for your excellent input! In fact, by now Jelana, if she had progressed within the range of possibility/hopes?, would be a dominant, consensus PAC-12 1st team Center. But she is what she is, which is a good, and very tall, player that would be a great backup on a team with a very talented post position player. Will that be the case in 2023-24? Maybe, if Raegan continues to improve. |
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Post by skyrider on Jan 31, 2023 17:41:04 GMT -8
ricke71,
Excellent observation. However do you see any validity to the point I am advocating about a lack of player development work by the Coaches?
Jelena has clearly progressed in several areas. How would it not be possible that she could with proper time spent with a Coach not learn
to keep the ball up high when she received it in the post. As tall as she is there are very few opposing players that could ever block her shot.
To me it is clear that some of the basics for player improvement as just not being "coached up"
Thanks for your participation!
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Jan 31, 2023 18:41:59 GMT -8
With all the people on this board attending practices I'm surprised that there is enough room for the players. That is the only way to actually know what is being taught. Any other way is just wild ass guesses. For what it is worth I've seen a significant improvement in Jalena's game.
What I see as the most significant change in the last 3 seasons, 4 if you count this year but I'll get to that later, is Covid and the subsequent opening up the portal by the ncaa. The change specific to OSU is the loss of an associate head coach and an assistant coach. Both played a big role in recruiting and player development. I was hoping that Deven would slip into the position Katie left, Katie herself replaced Mandy Close. In the games I've been able to see the bench it does not look like that has happened. That's not to say that Deven isn't doing anything, just that she isn't doing what Mandy and Katie were doing.
What I see when I watch this team play is that they are very young. 5 true freshmen, almost half the team, add in the 2 transfers and over half the team are first year Beavers. Only 1 player is a returning starter, the other 3 returning players sat way more than played. They have played a tough schedule in and out of the conference and while there have been a few "bad" games they have competitive against ranked teams.
Just my observations
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Post by sparty on Jan 31, 2023 18:42:07 GMT -8
So this get re-hashed over and over again in one thread and then another. Answer is nothing is going to change for a long time. Rueck has the reins to the program. It is his to do as he wishes.
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Jan 31, 2023 18:51:10 GMT -8
To me, the major determinant of whether OSU current WBB staff is developing player skills when they are in the program will be the progress of TVO, Raegan, and Timea. Clearly all three are not limited in terms of physical ability, intelligence, and basketball experience.
Just as clearly in the case of Raegan and Timea both are post players (although Timea can clearly play the four and probably the three position also) so there are proven instruction, techniques, etc. for post play development.
I believe Jelena's lack of progress in many areas is a big negative in terms of player development in this area.
Hopefully in the future, Raegan and Timea's progress will indicate a big positive for the OSU Coaches in terms of player development.
You can tell by whom the coach starts every game that the above is not the case. I believe Rueck believes that the success of Mitrovic proves he is successful. That's where our problems lie. He is consumed with his issues over failure at recruiting posts. This started with the huge loss of a great player in the Argentine girl. Not his fault but it has happened now twice in mitrovic. She is NOT a proven team changer!this has affected recruiting alot along with the disappearance of two underclass post players in Brown and Jones. Something really failed in these post situations in my opinion. Taylor just scored 19 points for Texas the last game. Something is going on in Rueck that is an issue.he did partly redeem himself with incredible recruits of Beers and Gardiner but it has NOT not opened the door to great guard recruits. Something seems a miss here! Just wondering what you base your opinion about what is going on internally with the coaches and team? Do you actually have any experience that qualifies you to psychoanalyze Rueck? Or are you just talking out of your *** |
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Post by grayman on Jan 31, 2023 19:47:16 GMT -8
With all the people on this board attending practices I'm surprised that there is enough room for the players. That is the only way to actually know what is being taught. Any other way is just wild ass guesses. For what it is worth I've seen a significant improvement in Jalena's game. What I see as the most significant change in the last 3 seasons, 4 if you count this year but I'll get to that later, is Covid and the subsequent opening up the portal by the ncaa. The change specific to OSU is the loss of an associate head coach and an assistant coach. Both played a big role in recruiting and player development. I was hoping that Deven would slip into the position Katie left, Katie herself replaced Mandy Close. In the games I've been able to see the bench it does not look like that has happened. That's not to say that Deven isn't doing anything, just that she isn't doing what Mandy and Katie were doing. What I see when I watch this team play is that they are very young. 5 true freshmen, almost half the team, add in the 2 transfers and over half the team are first year Beavers. Only 1 player is a returning starter, the other 3 returning players sat way more than played. They have played a tough schedule in and out of the conference and while there have been a few "bad" games they have competitive against ranked teams. Just my observations Watching game after game doesn't lead to "wild-ass guesses" by everyone. But you raise some interesting points...the opening of the portal and the Covid situation has definitely taken a toll on OSU, I would say more so than most other programs. I would think Rueck feels like he's had to start over with a couple groups, including the current one. Yes, it's a young team. But two freshmen rarely play and Martha doesn't get much more PT. So it really comes down to Beers (who has played like a vet in most games) and Gardiner (who no doubt is still getting her sea legs). Bendu is new to the team but she has played really well in the last few games. But point taken overall, the youthful makeup of the team makes for a fluid situation that has highs and lows. Jelena has improved, but as someone said, she's not going to become a better athlete. As for the assistants, this seems like it might be an obvious talking point when you consider the rosters that were built pretty consistently up until a couple years ago. But I think it's too early to tell for sure. I agree that for the most part the Beavers have lost to a lot of very good teams. But the loss to Washington at home and now at Cal, two of the worst teams in the conference, is concerning. I think it really boils down to building a better roster, which in the case of the current roster means adding a very good point guard who has the speed/quickness, passing, ballhandling and defensive skills along with a good shooting range. IMO they should throw every effort into getting one from the portal. Shuler or maybe Hunter might fit the bill but they will be true freshmen. It wouldn't be a bad thing to add another player through the portal, maybe someone who can play both forward spots. Of course, the Beavers have to retain the players eligible to return. While I'm not a huge fan of Rueck's philosophy on offense largely because of how much the women's game has changed into more of a high tempo affair, I do think he can attain success to a certain degree if he is able to put together the right roster. And Rueck probably isn't going anywhere for quite some time, so I'm hoping that he will have the chance to put that roster together without dealing with more defections. |
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Jan 31, 2023 20:11:21 GMT -8
Watching every game doesn't tell you what is going on in practice. You can make assumptions but those are just guesses.
While the transfers are concerning there are over 1000 of those every year since the portal was created. For the most part our losses, like our gains, are players moving closer to home. I'm not counting grad transfers since they have always been open. If the ncaa doesn't change the portal rules it will split the power 5 conferences apart.
While I really like Mannen it does speak volumes that the player getting the most or amost most minutes and leading the team in the +/- column walked on a couple years ago.
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Post by beaveragain on Jan 31, 2023 20:20:01 GMT -8
beaveragain, Yes, you make a strong case for Jelena in terms of progress. However I still feel that after three years in the program she could be physically much stronger and have corrected some of the obvious shortcomings (like lowering the ball to waist level and/or dribbling the ball when she receives it in the post area). These are not things that require monster athletic talent to achieve. Once again, my focus here is not on being critical of Jelena, but questioning whether the Coaching staff is doing their due diligence in terms of player development. Thanks for your excellent input! In fact, by now Jelana, if she had progressed within the range of possibility/hopes?, would be a dominant, consensus PAC-12 1st team Center. But she is what she is, which is a good, and very tall, player that would be a great backup on a team with a very talented post position player. Will that be the case in 2023-24? Maybe, if Raegan continues to improve. The "consensus PAC-12 1st team Center" is going to be Brinks, a serious contender for national player of the year. Sooo Mit is a failure because she's not beating out Brinks? |
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Post by grayman on Feb 1, 2023 12:10:22 GMT -8
Watching every game doesn't tell you what is going on in practice. You can make assumptions but those are just guesses. While the transfers are concerning there are over 1000 of those every year since the portal was created. For the most part our losses, like our gains, are players moving closer to home. I'm not counting grad transfers since they have always been open. If the ncaa doesn't change the portal rules it will split the power 5 conferences apart. While I really like Mannen it does speak volumes that the player getting the most or amost most minutes and leading the team in the +/- column walked on a couple years ago. So you think there's some super secret basketball methods being worked on or knowledge being imparted during practice? Anyone who has a decent level of knowledge about basketball understands what Rueck teaches by watching the team in games through the years. They understand his offensive and defensive philosophies and yeah, even the plays he draws up. We all see that. And we see how the portal effects teams positively and negatively. And we can see which players are effective in this system on a consistent basis and which ones struggle. And we can see what teams lack (for example, a point guard). And how Rueck's philosophy affects the program both positively and negatively. And on and on. If you had ever been to a practice, you would understand this. |
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Feb 1, 2023 12:37:12 GMT -8
Watching every game doesn't tell you what is going on in practice. You can make assumptions but those are just guesses. While the transfers are concerning there are over 1000 of those every year since the portal was created. For the most part our losses, like our gains, are players moving closer to home. I'm not counting grad transfers since they have always been open. If the ncaa doesn't change the portal rules it will split the power 5 conferences apart. While I really like Mannen it does speak volumes that the player getting the most or amost most minutes and leading the team in the +/- column walked on a couple years ago. So you think there's some super secret basketball methods being worked on or knowledge being imparted during practice? Anyone who has a decent level of knowledge about basketball understands what Rueck teaches by watching the team in games through the years. They understand his offensive and defensive philosophies and yeah, even the plays he draws up. We all see that. And we see how the portal effects teams positively and negatively. And we can see which players are effective in this system on a consistent basis and which ones struggle. And we can see what teams lack (for example, a point guard). And how Rueck's philosophy affects the program both positively and negatively. And on and on. If you had ever been to a practice, you would understand this. I have no idea what goes on in OSU's practices and don't proclaim to. But by your last sentence you are saying that you have. |
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Post by sparty on Feb 1, 2023 12:49:12 GMT -8
With all the people on this board attending practices I'm surprised that there is enough room for the players. That is the only way to actually know what is being taught. Any other way is just wild ass guesses. For what it is worth I've seen a significant improvement in Jalena's game. What I see as the most significant change in the last 3 seasons, 4 if you count this year but I'll get to that later, is Covid and the subsequent opening up the portal by the ncaa. The change specific to OSU is the loss of an associate head coach and an assistant coach. Both played a big role in recruiting and player development. I was hoping that Deven would slip into the position Katie left, Katie herself replaced Mandy Close. In the games I've been able to see the bench it does not look like that has happened. That's not to say that Deven isn't doing anything, just that she isn't doing what Mandy and Katie were doing. What I see when I watch this team play is that they are very young. 5 true freshmen, almost half the team, add in the 2 transfers and over half the team are first year Beavers. Only 1 player is a returning starter, the other 3 returning players sat way more than played. They have played a tough schedule in and out of the conference and while there have been a few "bad" games they have competitive against ranked teams. Just my observations Watching game after game doesn't lead to "wild-ass guesses" by everyone. But you raise some interesting points...the opening of the portal and the Covid situation has definitely taken a toll on OSU, I would say more so than most other programs. I would think Rueck feels like he's had to start over with a couple groups, including the current one. Yes, it's a young team. But two freshmen rarely play and Martha doesn't get much more PT. So it really comes down to Beers (who has played like a vet in most games) and Gardiner (who no doubt is still getting her sea legs). Bendu is new to the team but she has played really well in the last few games. But point taken overall, the youthful makeup of the team makes for a fluid situation that has highs and lows. Jelena has improved, but as someone said, she's not going to become a better athlete. As for the assistants, this seems like it might be an obvious talking point when you consider the rosters that were built pretty consistently up until a couple years ago. But I think it's too early to tell for sure. I agree that for the most part the Beavers have lost to a lot of very good teams. But the loss to Washington at home and now at Cal, two of the worst teams in the conference, is concerning. I think it really boils down to building a better roster, which in the case of the current roster means adding a very good point guard who has the speed/quickness, passing, ballhandling and defensive skills along with a good shooting range. IMO they should throw every effort into getting one from the portal. Shuler or maybe Hunter might fit the bill but they will be true freshmen. It wouldn't be a bad thing to add another player through the portal, maybe someone who can play both forward spots. Of course, the Beavers have to retain the players eligible to return. While I'm not a huge fan of Rueck's philosophy on offense largely because of how much the women's game has changed into more of a high tempo affair, I do think he can attain success to a certain degree if he is able to put together the right roster. And Rueck probably isn't going anywhere for quite some time, so I'm hoping that he will have the chance to put that roster together without dealing with more defections. So I hope you don't mind me in asking how we got here but someone else here wrote " the opening of the portal and the Covid situation has definitely taken a toll on OSU, I would say more so than most other programs."
How did both of those effect OSU more? Especially COVID. Secondly, aren't some embracing the portal as a strength if used correctly. Yes, Scott has said he hates the portal. Is it embrace it or die time?
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