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Post by grayman on Feb 1, 2023 13:14:54 GMT -8
So you think there's some super secret basketball methods being worked on or knowledge being imparted during practice? Anyone who has a decent level of knowledge about basketball understands what Rueck teaches by watching the team in games through the years. They understand his offensive and defensive philosophies and yeah, even the plays he draws up. We all see that. And we see how the portal effects teams positively and negatively. And we can see which players are effective in this system on a consistent basis and which ones struggle. And we can see what teams lack (for example, a point guard). And how Rueck's philosophy affects the program both positively and negatively. And on and on. If you had ever been to a practice, you would understand this. I have no idea what goes on in OSU's practices and don't proclaim to. But by your last sentence you are saying that you have. Yes. And I've been to practices held by other coaches a few times through the years. But really, I don't want this to become some argument. I just want to point out that knowledgeable fans can figure out a lot by going to/watching games. I think you're getting too hung up on something that doesn't matter all that much. |
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Post by grayman on Feb 1, 2023 13:20:42 GMT -8
Watching game after game doesn't lead to "wild-ass guesses" by everyone. But you raise some interesting points...the opening of the portal and the Covid situation has definitely taken a toll on OSU, I would say more so than most other programs. I would think Rueck feels like he's had to start over with a couple groups, including the current one. Yes, it's a young team. But two freshmen rarely play and Martha doesn't get much more PT. So it really comes down to Beers (who has played like a vet in most games) and Gardiner (who no doubt is still getting her sea legs). Bendu is new to the team but she has played really well in the last few games. But point taken overall, the youthful makeup of the team makes for a fluid situation that has highs and lows. Jelena has improved, but as someone said, she's not going to become a better athlete. As for the assistants, this seems like it might be an obvious talking point when you consider the rosters that were built pretty consistently up until a couple years ago. But I think it's too early to tell for sure. I agree that for the most part the Beavers have lost to a lot of very good teams. But the loss to Washington at home and now at Cal, two of the worst teams in the conference, is concerning. I think it really boils down to building a better roster, which in the case of the current roster means adding a very good point guard who has the speed/quickness, passing, ballhandling and defensive skills along with a good shooting range. IMO they should throw every effort into getting one from the portal. Shuler or maybe Hunter might fit the bill but they will be true freshmen. It wouldn't be a bad thing to add another player through the portal, maybe someone who can play both forward spots. Of course, the Beavers have to retain the players eligible to return. While I'm not a huge fan of Rueck's philosophy on offense largely because of how much the women's game has changed into more of a high tempo affair, I do think he can attain success to a certain degree if he is able to put together the right roster. And Rueck probably isn't going anywhere for quite some time, so I'm hoping that he will have the chance to put that roster together without dealing with more defections. So I hope you don't mind me in asking how we got here but someone else here wrote " the opening of the portal and the Covid situation has definitely taken a toll on OSU, I would say more so than most other programs."
How did both of those effect OSU more? Especially COVID. Secondly, aren't some embracing the portal as a strength if used correctly. Yes, Scott has said he hates the portal. Is it embrace it or die time?
What I was getting at is that OSU's portal losses had more impact than most and that the COVID situation was at least one reason why some of those players left. Rueck himself blames COVID for the defections. Probably had an impact. Pretty sure he's not going to address any reasons that would seem to indicate a negative relationship between the players and him/the program/OSU. As for hating the portal, I think a lot of coaches don't care for it, at least in principle. But I don't see any evidence that Rueck is hesistant to use it. How success he can be compared to other teams is definitely in question. |
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Post by grayman on Feb 1, 2023 13:29:08 GMT -8
I have no idea what goes on in OSU's practices and don't proclaim to. But by your last sentence you are saying that you have. Yes. And I've been to practices held by other coaches a few times through the years. But really, I don't want this to become some argument. I just want to point out that knowledgeable fans can figure out a lot by going to/watching games. I think you're getting too hung up on something that doesn't matter all that much. I will add that my tone in my first response was probably a little too sarcastic. I apologize for that. It's something that I want to avoid but it can be difficult sometimes on messageboards and social media nowadays, lol |
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Post by rmancarl on Feb 1, 2023 14:10:57 GMT -8
mancari, Thanks for your input to the thread. You stated "if you added one more scoring threat, in particular a shooter, you have several more wins". Yes and as a wise man once stated "If wishes were horses, we could all ride!". In regards to your comment "TVO has already been voted to the all-Pac12 team last season", I would counter with "yes but that was last season and she seems to have fallen off significantly in probably the areas the Beavs need her the most (total scoring and three point scoring). You are spot on with " I think many on this board don't realize how close this team is to being a NCAA tourney team. Not necessarily a contender, but a tourney team". Once again an old saying comes to mind "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades" What are your thoughts on my premise that somehow player development is just not what it once was. If so what does OSU need to do to correct the problem? Go Beavs Sky, you pose a good question. I think there are a couple things that hinder a great answer. One being a time issue. When you don't have players that stick around for 4 years, how well can you tell about development? Players just don't develop overnight. Secondly, with the switch in assistant coaches, how soon do we see a loss in player development, and how much did it cost the Beavs to lose an extra assistant (Eric Ely) during the Covid years? For that matter, how much did the loss of practice time hurt player development? You know they lost both practice time, and game time experience during both 2020/2021 and 2012/2022 years. How much of a role does that play? I don't have the answer to any of those, but you have to believe those weren't the best circumstances for players to learn and grow. If an argument against player development hinges on the development of Talia and Jelena, then I think it is a weak argument. Talia is in a definite shooters slump, not uncommon for college players, but statistically her numbers are better in every other category, rebounds, assist, turn overs, etc. Just listening to commentary, I'm pretty sure most would say her overall game is much better...but yes, her shooting has not been as good as the past. I'm doubtful the coaches taught her to not shoot as well, or to shoot low percentage shots. In my eyes, Jelena is miles ahead of when she came in the program. She's not athletic, not a jumper, not fast, and you'll never be able to change her athleticism above marginally, but her moves around the basket, shooting ability, passing, are all greatly improved. Again, I'm sure the coaches don't tell her to bring the ball down. She had 3 years to watch Taylor Jones keep the ball high. You would think that would be enough of a lesson. Former Utah head basketball coach, Anthony Levrets, raved about how well Jelena is playing (maybe that's why he is the 'former' coach  . I don't remember what TV game it was, but a few weeks back the two commentators talked about how they watched Jelena in practice when she first arrived and listened to SR say how good she could be, and they thought it was just 'coach speak', but seeing her improvement this year shows that it wasn't just talk. Anyway, my 2 cents. There may be some player development issues, but I'm not convinced we have a good answer yet with this team being so young. |
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Post by skyrider on Feb 1, 2023 15:48:11 GMT -8
Mancari,
Excellent post as always!
Your first three paragraphs state well conditions that existed for all the teams so that would not seem to provide a reason why OSU is not doing as well as other teams in overcoming that and still keeping their level of player development up.
In regards to Jelena I yield to your viewpoint. She is light years ahead of where she was. It is still frustrating to me that she (a) does not keep the ball up high in post up and other situations when that is clearly not an athletic talent issue but something else going on. Also intensive weight training where she would become stronger and able to hold her position in the post is not something that you have to be a great athlete to do.
In regards to Talia, I am reserving judgement and hope I am wrong in my conclusion. Perhaps she is injured,not feeling well or who knows what. It is sad to see such a good player (how many players ever score 41 points in a game!) struggle because, I believe, Coach Rueck seems
to be unable or unwilling to recruit or play a talented point guard (see my earlier post about Taylor Kalmer) and seems to just assume that he can "create" a point guard out of whatever shooting guard he recruits. Yes, it has worked sometimes but I do not believe it is working this time.
In closing, I have really enjoyed this thread. Great responses, outstanding insights, and clearly a devoted group of fans to OSU women's basketball.
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Post by Judge Smails on Feb 1, 2023 17:47:43 GMT -8
Mancari, Excellent post as always! Your first three paragraphs state well conditions that existed for all the teams so that would not seem to provide a reason why OSU is not doing as well as other teams in overcoming that and still keeping their level of player development up. In regards to Jelena I yield to your viewpoint. She is light years ahead of where she was. It is still frustrating to me that she (a) does not keep the ball up high in post up and other situations when that is clearly not an athletic talent issue but something else going on. Also intensive weight training where she would become stronger and able to hold her position in the post is not something that you have to be a great athlete to do. In regards to Talia, I am reserving judgement and hope I am wrong in my conclusion. Perhaps she is injured,not feeling well or who knows what. It is sad to see such a good player (how many players ever score 41 points in a game!) struggle because, I believe, Coach Rueck seems to be unable or unwilling to recruit or play a talented point guard (see my earlier post about Taylor Kalmer) and seems to just assume that he can "create" a point guard out of whatever shooting guard he recruits. Yes, it has worked sometimes but I do not believe it is working this time. In closing, I have really enjoyed this thread. Great responses, outstanding insights, and clearly a devoted group of fans to OSU women's basketball. Taylor Kalmer was not a PAC 12 talented point guard. She was not the answer. |
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Post by skyrider on Feb 2, 2023 9:01:51 GMT -8
Taylor Kalmer was not a PAC 12 talented point guard. She was not the answer. Judge Smails,
I respectfully disagree. However perhaps based on other comments you have made concerning the present state of the program, perhaps we might have an area of agreement on the premise that (a) the lack of quality point guards on the roster and (b) the difficulty in recruiting them based on the perception or the reality that Coach Rueck's style of play puts them in a "straight jacket" is a significant factor in the decline of the program.
As always thanks for your outstanding contributions!
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Post by Judge Smails on Feb 2, 2023 9:40:50 GMT -8
Taylor Kalmer was not a PAC 12 talented point guard. She was not the answer. Judge Smails,
I respectfully disagree. However perhaps based on other comments you have made concerning the present state of the program, perhaps we might have an area of agreement on the premise that (a) the lack of quality point guards on the roster and (b) the difficulty in recruiting them based on the perception or the reality that Coach Rueck's style of play puts them in a "straight jacket" is a significant factor in the decline of the program.
As always thanks for your outstanding contributions!
I don’t disagree with the premise that Rueck should loosen up on his stranglehold over the players. I just don’t think Kalmer was that good of a PG. Yeaney is doing OK, but she is a score first PG and she’s not a consistent 3 pt threat, which allows defenses to sag and clog up the lane. |
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Post by rmancarl on Feb 2, 2023 9:46:14 GMT -8
Mancari, Excellent post as always! Your first three paragraphs state well conditions that existed for all the teams so that would not seem to provide a reason why OSU is not doing as well as other teams in overcoming that and still keeping their level of player development up. In regards to Jelena I yield to your viewpoint. She is light years ahead of where she was. It is still frustrating to me that she (a) does not keep the ball up high in post up and other situations when that is clearly not an athletic talent issue but something else going on. Also intensive weight training where she would become stronger and able to hold her position in the post is not something that you have to be a great athlete to do. In regards to Talia, I am reserving judgement and hope I am wrong in my conclusion. Perhaps she is injured,not feeling well or who knows what. It is sad to see such a good player (how many players ever score 41 points in a game!) struggle because, I believe, Coach Rueck seems to be unable or unwilling to recruit or play a talented point guard (see my earlier post about Taylor Kalmer) and seems to just assume that he can "create" a point guard out of whatever shooting guard he recruits. Yes, it has worked sometimes but I do not believe it is working this time. In closing, I have really enjoyed this thread. Great responses, outstanding insights, and clearly a devoted group of fans to OSU women's basketball. Sky, my apologies, if I understand your second line here, your belief is that Oregon State is not doing as well at player development as other teams in the conference, and that is not what I was addressing. Oregon State has not done as well in the transfer portal as many Pac12 teams. That would be my premise on why the team is where it currently is (along with some major injuries). That has nothing to do with player development. In my view the Beavs would score a grade of an F in players lost in the portal (Sasha, Taylor, Kennedy, Taya in particular), while only grading as C (if that) in players brought in from the portal, with Ellie, and Bendu being the best. Back to player development in comparison to other teams, the Beavs only returned 4 players this season, Noelle, a former walk on, Jelena and AJ, who only averaged 12.5 and 15.3 minutes respectively, and one starter. Noelle has improved well beyond what I thought she was capable of, AJ has shown nice Sophomore improvement, and we've already talked about the other two. I'm really not trying to defend Beaver coaches on this, because I'm not yet sure how well the new coaches are doing. But, it seems to me that it's too early to make a judgement call when the majority of this team is in their early development. |
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Post by skyrider on Feb 2, 2023 10:52:19 GMT -8
Sky, my apologies, if I understand your second line here, your belief is that Oregon State is not doing as well at player development as other teams in the conference, and that is not what I was addressing. Oregon State has not done as well in the transfer portal as many Pac12 teams. That would be my premise on why the team is where it currently is (along with some major injuries). That has nothing to do with player development. In my view the Beavs would score a grade of an F in players lost in the portal (Sasha, Taylor, Kennedy, Taya in particular), while only grading as C (if that) in players brought in from the portal, with Ellie, and Bendu being the best. Back to player development in comparison to other teams, the Beavs only returned 4 players this season, Noelle, a former walk on, Jelena and AJ, who only averaged 12.5 and 15.3 minutes respectively, and one starter. Noelle has improved well beyond what I thought she was capable of, AJ has shown nice Sophomore improvement, and we've already talked about the other two. I'm really not trying to defend Beaver coaches on this, because I'm not yet sure how well the new coaches are doing. But, it seems to me that it's too early to make a judgement call when the majority of this team is in their early development. Mancari, Your point is well taken that it may be too early to make a judgement call. However I believe it is also important to realize that given the the program's steep decline in wins over the past few years it may be too late. The damage may have been done and the recovery may be painfully slow! |
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Post by skyrider on Feb 2, 2023 11:03:35 GMT -8
Sky, my apologies, if I understand your second line here, your belief is that Oregon State is not doing as well at player development as other teams in the conference, and that is not what I was addressing. Oregon State has not done as well in the transfer portal as many Pac12 teams. That would be my premise on why the team is where it currently is (along with some major injuries). That has nothing to do with player development. In my view the Beavs would score a grade of an F in players lost in the portal (Sasha, Taylor, Kennedy, Taya in particular), while only grading as C (if that) in players brought in from the portal, with Ellie, and Bendu being the best. Back to player development in comparison to other teams, the Beavs only returned 4 players this season, Noelle, a former walk on, Jelena and AJ, who only averaged 12.5 and 15.3 minutes respectively, and one starter. Noelle has improved well beyond what I thought she was capable of, AJ has shown nice Sophomore improvement, and we've already talked about the other two. I'm really not trying to defend Beaver coaches on this, because I'm not yet sure how well the new coaches are doing. But, it seems to me that it's too early to make a judgement call when the majority of this team is in their early development. Mancari, Your point is well taken that it may be too early to make a judgement call. However I believe it is also important to realize that given the the program's steep decline in wins over the past few years it may be too late. The damage may have been done and the recovery may be painfully slow! |
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Post by rmancarl on Feb 2, 2023 12:22:45 GMT -8
Sky, I understand how you feel and there are many here that feel that way. My belief is that the program has fallen because of poor use of the portal (again measuring losses versus gains) and of course the timing, and amount of injuries. Every Beaver team the last few years would have been better had Kat, Kennedy, Taylor, and Taya not been injured, and each would have also been better had not Destiny, Sasha, Taylor, Kennedy, etc transferred out.....even Aleah could have given this team one more season which would have made the difference between NIT and NCAA tourneys. Having a healthy Timea all season this year would have changed things. Every team must deal with possible injuries, and with possible transfers, but in my opinion, this is where the coaching staff has failed. I'm really curious to know if, and how intensely the staff went after a front court player in the portal last season. It was only Jelena and two freshman coming in this fall. Both freshman have a history with injury, yet we didn't bring in another front court transfer. Seems odd.
My outlook for the future though is bright, and that is based on the team development, as well as individual development. My argument falls apart if the Beavers lose the core group of young players to the portal, but if the talent sticks around, this team will steadily improve.
My examples of team improvement:
My favorite, the 2012/2013 Beavers with Weisner, Hamblin, and Hunter who won 10 games. Came back the next year to win 24 games, and went on to the final four as seniors.
The ducks with Ionescu, Hebarb, and company won 23 games (8-10) in the Pac as freshman, but won 33 the next two seasons and may have been the best team in the country as seniors (covid cancellation year)
Arizona had two talented freshman Sam Thomas and Cate Reese and added sophomore Ari McDonald and made the NIT. Two years later, that group was in the final four.
Last year, Utah had a talented trio of Freshman, Kneepkens, Johnson, and McQueen, that won 21 games and were 8-7 in conference. They added to that group this year and are 18-2 and are 8-2 in conference.
I'm not saying the current group of Beavs will eventually make the final four, or win the conference, but there will be a major difference from what you see this season, and what you see the next 2-3 years. All of this is contingent on keeping the core talent, adding some talent, and barring major injuries and with what has happened the last few years that has to be a concern. I just don't think Beers, Gardiner, and TVO will leave after this season.
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Post by skyrider on Feb 2, 2023 12:58:19 GMT -8
rmancari,
I am going to copy and print out your above response. It will keep me thinking positively and also realize how on my perspectives wonderful as I may think they are (grin!) sometimes just do not "see the forest because of the trees".
Obtaining a different (i.e. better and more enlightened) viewpoint is really enlightening and beneficial. Thank you!
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. I don't remember what TV game it was, but a few weeks back the two commentators talked about how they watched Jelena in practice when she first arrived and listened to SR say how good she could be, and they thought it was just 'coach speak', but seeing her improvement this year shows that it wasn't just talk. 
