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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Apr 17, 2023 8:12:43 GMT -8
Wayne Tinkle took Montana to the 2010, 2012 and 2013 NCAA tournaments. That's three. So apparently you slept through the reading comprehension portion of D&S's post. Brown went from 11-18 in Robinson's first year to 19-10. Sounds like an up-and-comer to me. Let's see what happens to your golden guy at Mizzou, a suckhole for athletics. Cuonzo Martin was an up-and-comer too. So was Kim Anderson. Was recently talking about Dennis Gates with a friend and it reminded me of this post. So far so good for Mr. Gates. Inherited a team that went 12-21 (5-13) and then most of the team hit the portal due to the coach change. Brought in 6 transfers and 3 HS recruits, and proceeded to guide the team to a 24-9 (11-7) record, an NCAA bid and a first round win. Has the 24th ranked recruiting class coming in this year with 3 HS recruits and 2 transfers. So far so good for my “golden guy at Mizzou.” He’ll be on the short list when top jobs open up in the future. There’s a huge difference between Missouri and OSU that I’ve been bringing up for a long time…. Spend to win!
Missouri has had a basketball budget of between 7 and almost 10 million a year since the middle of the last decade, the numbers I’ve been seeing for OSU during that time were significantly lower if I’m recalling correctly. The article I linked is actually griping about Missouri’s lack of spending, but we spend even less. How much is currently spent for recruiting? I don’t know but according to the Numbers from about 4-5 years ago Missouri was spending over double that of OSU. Years of extra investment likely pays off better than years of strangling a program’s budget (in comparison to it’s peers). |
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Post by beaverinohio on Apr 17, 2023 8:23:23 GMT -8
Was recently talking about Dennis Gates with a friend and it reminded me of this post. So far so good for Mr. Gates. Inherited a team that went 12-21 (5-13) and then most of the team hit the portal due to the coach change. Brought in 6 transfers and 3 HS recruits, and proceeded to guide the team to a 24-9 (11-7) record, an NCAA bid and a first round win. Has the 24th ranked recruiting class coming in this year with 3 HS recruits and 2 transfers. So far so good for my “golden guy at Mizzou.” He’ll be on the short list when top jobs open up in the future. There’s a huge difference between Missouri and OSU that I’ve been bringing up for a long time…. Spend to win!
Missouri has had a basketball budget of between 7 and almost 10 million a year since the middle of the last decade, the numbers I’ve been seeing for OSU during that time were significantly lower if I’m recalling correctly. How much is currently spent for recruiting? I don’t know but according to the Numbers from about 4-5 years ago Missouri was spending over double that of OSU. Years of extra investment likely pays off better than years of strangling a program’s budget (in comparison to it’s peers). Henry’s post said nothing about money. He poo pooed Gates as a hire at Missouri and seemed to doubt he’d be successful. At least in his first year he seemed to be pretty of base. I didn’t believe I even mentioned Oregon St in that post let alone wrote why can Missouri turn it around quick and Beavers can’t. |
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Post by beaverinohio on Apr 17, 2023 8:44:34 GMT -8
Somewhat interesting thing about Gates. He really wanted the DePaul HC job. The new AD there who had come from KY was trying hard to get Kenny Payne. When that fell through he hired Tony Stubblefield from Oregon. That hasn’t worked out too well so far. Would have been interesting if DePaul had hired him because that’s as tough a job if not more so than Oregon State. They lack NIL money too and they play off campus. Only thing going for it is it is in Chicago. DePaul fans are kicking themselves that Gates wasn’t hired.
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Post by rgeorge on Apr 17, 2023 14:37:06 GMT -8
Somewhat interesting thing about Gates. He really wanted the DePaul HC job. The new AD there who had come from KY was trying hard to get Kenny Payne. When that fell through he hired Tony Stubblefield from Oregon. That hasn’t worked out too well so far. Would have been interesting if DePaul had hired him because that’s as tough a job if not more so than Oregon State. They lack NIL money too and they play off campus. Only thing going for it is it is in Chicago. DePaul fans are kicking themselves that Gates wasn’t hired. The entire $$/investment argument leading to more success is BS. Doling out more money to just any coach/program does not guarantee improvement let alone success. OSU (~$7.5 mil) definitely spends less on hoops than everyone in the Pac12 except WSU ($1.6 mil more than WSU based on the most recent season's financials available) . Yet WSU and a new coach have outplayed OSU. Colorado spent approximately $500k more (~7% more) and are a far superior program. But, the you can go down the Group of 5 list and see many highly successful MBB programs that spend far less than OSU: SanDiego St $7.2mil Cincinnati $6.6mil Colorado St $5.5mil UNLV $5mil Nevada $5mil Utah St $4.7mil UTEP $4.6mil Boise St $4.1mil To name just a few of many. Not all would be better than OSU in Pac12 play, but all have been highly successful over several seasons spending far less in many instances. You can pick lists, numbers, schedules, etc apart in numerous ways to make a specific point. But throwing $$ at a situation is not a fix, let alone an excuse for the numbers and inconsistency that is OSU MBB. History and a budget don't preclude success. Plus in Tinkle's own words... Tinkle insists he has the resources he needs to win at OSU. His athletic director has been supportive. The program has a practice facility, will charter most of the flights on conference road trips next season, and has the backing of the university’s preferred NIL partner, DamNation Collective.
“We feel really, really strongly about the fact that we don’t lack a whole lot,” Tinkle said.I also want to mention in recognition of another BS post, I for one have never called someone that accepts mediocrity a "loser". I'm not sure that any other poster called anyone a "loser" for that specific reason?! However, if that level of success fits your lifestyle and way of thinking, you do you. But, for many, inconsistency and the numbers posted over the last 9 season by the OSU MBB program is unacceptable. And, whether a coach is going to be let go, or the university can "afford" to let a coach go, aren't reasons to not point out a program's failures. Short memories here, as many did exactly the same concerning the winningest football coach in school history, yet was deemed a completely acceptable conversation. At 127-158 overall with pretty weak NC schedules, and 58-110 in Pac12 play it is a conversation that is completely justified. |
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Post by Werebeaver on Apr 17, 2023 14:38:28 GMT -8
The Beavs are also picked last by 5 out of 5 of cbssports basketball writers. The preseason expectations and buzz around the program have never been lower. On the bright side, it won't be hard to meet or hopefully exceed expectations. I wonder how many season tickets they have sold? How soon we forget the Jay John era. Or the Ritchie McKay era. |
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Post by beaverology on Apr 17, 2023 14:47:43 GMT -8
Just my opinion but NCAA appearances and being in contention for a NC in 2021 MBB far outweigh having a .400 in Pac12 play. It's sad that some people couldn't enjoy the 2021 Pac12 crown and the elite 8 NCAA run. They'd rather whine about Pac12 winning %. Find some new material.
WSU, Stanford, CU, etc would trade winning seasons for a Pac12 crown and an NCAA elite 8 run all day long.
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Post by rgeorge on Apr 17, 2023 15:36:09 GMT -8
Just my opinion but NCAA appearances and being in contention for a NC in 2021 MBB far outweigh having a .400 in Pac12 play. It's sad that some people couldn't enjoy the 2021 Pac12 crown and the elite 8 NCAA run. They'd rather whine about Pac12 winning %. Find some new material. WSU, Stanford, CU, etc would trade winning seasons for a Pac12 crown and an NCAA elite 8 run all day long. First making a fabulous run to the E8 is not equivalent to "being in contention for a NC"! Of course I guess every team begins a season being in contention. So, I guess OSU has been in contention every season there has been a NC! Hence, all those terrible coaches before WT were in contention? Second, FYI... since you consistently tend to exaggerate and state "Pac 12 crown or title", OSU won the Pac12 Tournament Championship... there is a difference, although slight. Third, one or three seasons out of NINE do not make a program. As much as you want to harp on the E8 (which everyone already acknowledges was awesome... and some a "once in a lifetime" event) the drop off has been more than precipitous. And, whatever excuses you may want to lay out, the responsibility lies with one person. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Use the excuses or budget, history, Covid, etc., etc., etc. for the lack of success then use the E8 as some proof of excellence. Fourth, you have no, zero, zip, nada knowledge of what WSU, Furd, CU, etc would trade? It is just another example of made up nonsense to attempt to make a point. So, keep using the E8 as your focal point. I would then challenge you to find a program that went to an E8 then not only fell off the map the very next season, but had the coach blame "Zoom recruiting" and saying he "trusted some poor testimonials" that was able completely destroy the program's "culture" is one season!! REALLY the culture was so strong after (7) seasons that WT decided to not "do his homework" and that one recruiting class destroyed the entire culture? That is was on the players he couldn't get through to them? And, to top it off the coach fires the assistants, because of course they had to be part of the destruction of that strong culture and recruiting failures? |
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Apr 17, 2023 15:48:21 GMT -8
Somewhat interesting thing about Gates. He really wanted the DePaul HC job. The new AD there who had come from KY was trying hard to get Kenny Payne. When that fell through he hired Tony Stubblefield from Oregon. That hasn’t worked out too well so far. Would have been interesting if DePaul had hired him because that’s as tough a job if not more so than Oregon State. They lack NIL money too and they play off campus. Only thing going for it is it is in Chicago. DePaul fans are kicking themselves that Gates wasn’t hired. The entire $$/investment argument leading to more success is BS. Doling out more money to just any coach/program does not guarantee improvement let alone success. OSU (~$7.5 mil) definitely spends less on hoops than everyone in the Pac12 except WSU ($1.6 mil more than WSU based on the most recent season's financials available) . Yet WSU and a new coach have outplayed OSU. Colorado spent approximately $500k more (~7% more) and are a far superior program. But, the you can go down the Group of 5 list and see many highly successful MBB programs that spend far less than OSU: SanDiego St $7.2mil Cincinnati $6.6mil Colorado St $5.5mil UNLV $5mil Nevada $5mil Utah St $4.7mil UTEP $4.6mil Boise St $4.1mil To name just a few of many. Not all would be better than OSU in Pac12 play, but all have been highly successful over several seasons spending far less in many instances. You can pick lists, numbers, schedules, etc apart in numerous ways to make a specific point. But throwing $$ at a situation is not a fix, let alone an excuse for the numbers and inconsistency that is OSU MBB. History and a budget don't preclude success. Plus in Tinkle's own words... Tinkle insists he has the resources he needs to win at OSU. His athletic director has been supportive. The program has a practice facility, will charter most of the flights on conference road trips next season, and has the backing of the university’s preferred NIL partner, DamNation Collective.
“We feel really, really strongly about the fact that we don’t lack a whole lot,” Tinkle said.I also want to mention in recognition of another BS post, I for one have never called someone that accepts mediocrity a "loser". I'm not sure that any other poster called anyone a "loser" for that specific reason?! However, if that level of success fits your lifestyle and way of thinking, you do you. But, for many, inconsistency and the numbers posted over the last 9 season by the OSU MBB program is unacceptable. And, whether a coach is going to be let go, or the university can "afford" to let a coach go, aren't reasons to not point out a program's failures. Short memories here, as many did exactly the same concerning the winningest football coach in school history, yet was deemed a completely acceptable conversation. At 127-158 overall with pretty weak NC schedules, and 58-110 in Pac12 play it is a conversation that is completely justified. Money-wise, if OSU spends 11th in the conference it should be 11th or worse most years if Tinkle's not doing a decent job. He's had 3 bad years in 9 at a program that had 2 winning seasons in the previous 23/24 years. Good on WSU's new coach, we'll see if he can go 50% or better 6 of 9 years. Group of 5 teams play group of 5 schedules at least 2/3rds of their season. One would need to compare the spending of the schools you mentioned against that of all of their group of 5 competition. OSU is in the bottom few of Power 5 spending apparently (been linked here numerous times), are they at their respective levels? Do you think Tinkle would have had the same record if his teams would have played gGroup of 5 schedules this whole time? Tinkle could well be playing the politically correct positivity rather than complaining. It would be curious to hear him candidly talk about what is on his "wish list" if money were no object. I suspect EVERY college coach has a wish list. |
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Apr 17, 2023 15:52:18 GMT -8
All I can say is, too bad rgeorge wasn't giving out his wisdom during the Elite 8 season.
That was a great season to be on this board, no constant negative energy.
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Post by rgeorge on Apr 17, 2023 16:06:34 GMT -8
The entire $$/investment argument leading to more success is BS. Doling out more money to just any coach/program does not guarantee improvement let alone success. OSU (~$7.5 mil) definitely spends less on hoops than everyone in the Pac12 except WSU ($1.6 mil more than WSU based on the most recent season's financials available) . Yet WSU and a new coach have outplayed OSU. Colorado spent approximately $500k more (~7% more) and are a far superior program. But, the you can go down the Group of 5 list and see many highly successful MBB programs that spend far less than OSU: SanDiego St $7.2mil Cincinnati $6.6mil Colorado St $5.5mil UNLV $5mil Nevada $5mil Utah St $4.7mil UTEP $4.6mil Boise St $4.1mil To name just a few of many. Not all would be better than OSU in Pac12 play, but all have been highly successful over several seasons spending far less in many instances. You can pick lists, numbers, schedules, etc apart in numerous ways to make a specific point. But throwing $$ at a situation is not a fix, let alone an excuse for the numbers and inconsistency that is OSU MBB. History and a budget don't preclude success. Plus in Tinkle's own words... Tinkle insists he has the resources he needs to win at OSU. His athletic director has been supportive. The program has a practice facility, will charter most of the flights on conference road trips next season, and has the backing of the university’s preferred NIL partner, DamNation Collective.
“We feel really, really strongly about the fact that we don’t lack a whole lot,” Tinkle said.I also want to mention in recognition of another BS post, I for one have never called someone that accepts mediocrity a "loser". I'm not sure that any other poster called anyone a "loser" for that specific reason?! However, if that level of success fits your lifestyle and way of thinking, you do you. But, for many, inconsistency and the numbers posted over the last 9 season by the OSU MBB program is unacceptable. And, whether a coach is going to be let go, or the university can "afford" to let a coach go, aren't reasons to not point out a program's failures. Short memories here, as many did exactly the same concerning the winningest football coach in school history, yet was deemed a completely acceptable conversation. At 127-158 overall with pretty weak NC schedules, and 58-110 in Pac12 play it is a conversation that is completely justified. Money-wise, if OSU spends 11th in the conference it should be 11th or worse most years if Tinkle's not doing a decent job. He's had 3 bad years in 9 at a program that had 2 winning seasons in the previous 23/24 years. Good on WSU's new coach, we'll see if he can go 50% or better 6 of 9 years. Group of 5 teams play group of 5 schedules at least 2/3rds of their season. One would need to compare the spending of the schools you mentioned against that of all of their group of 5 competition. OSU is in the bottom few of Power 5 spending apparently (been linked here numerous times), are they at their respective levels? Do you think Tinkle would have had the same record if his teams would have played gGroup of 5 schedules this whole time? Tinkle could well be playing the politically correct positivity rather than complaining. It would be curious to hear him candidly talk about what is on his "wish list" if money were no object. I suspect EVERY college coach has a wish list. As stated here many times, you play who you play. Bottom line these teams are successful and many, if not most, depending on the year, play a stronger NC schedule. The E8 year was an anomaly. A GREAT one. But, the outcome doesn't change the deficiencies within the program. The outcome of the season only allowed some to excuse them. Just as you said something about being on the board during that season I bet if you go back and read that season's board there were many of the same complaints. I am also willing to bet that no one on that board saw that team or the program as winning the Pac12 tournament or multiple NCAA tourney games before it actually was happening. It is amazing how 20/20 hindsight makes an opinion seem stronger. No matter the season(s) one would like to put forth, the issues with the program remain pretty constant... poor recruiting, poor player development, a lack of any offensive cohesiveness and consistency. And, over the (9) seasons there have not been any significant improvements in any of those areas. But, to think that after (9) seasons any of the key components will suddenly improve and continue to do so is a bit... well, crazy!? Some are happy with some random outcomes and continually state/think OSU can do no better. To me that is a shame that is the expectation. FYI... to another poster, not you, to state opinions, back by facts, and to critically evaluate is not "whining". But, coming from certain parties the verbiage makes sense. |
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Post by beaverinohio on Apr 17, 2023 16:19:07 GMT -8
Just my opinion but NCAA appearances and being in contention for a NC in 2021 MBB far outweigh having a .400 in Pac12 play. It's sad that some people couldn't enjoy the 2021 Pac12 crown and the elite 8 NCAA run. They'd rather whine about Pac12 winning %. Find some new material. WSU, Stanford, CU, etc would trade winning seasons for a Pac12 crown and an NCAA elite 8 run all day long. I thoroughly enjoyed the Elite 8 run and I don’t care about ones thoughts about Tinkle, but if one calls him or herself a Beaver fan and didn’t then shame on them. And if people want to give Tinkle a pass on his less than stellar record up until now because of that Elite 8 run, well I don’t agree with that I can understand it. Having said that, after the following year’s debacle I knew he’d be the HC through this next year because of that run and his buyout. My question is when does the statute of limitations on that E8 accomplishment run out? Let’s say they improve by a couple of wins next year. And the next year is another 13 win season, and then again for the third year in a row another 13 wins. How many of those seasons makes you say, “the E8 run was incredible, but WT just isn’t getting it done now”? Not sure if it was you, but someone recently posted that they would happily take two seasons like the last two in a 3-year span if the third season was an E8. I think many would. I think I probably would too and by saying I knew he would be Coach through next year jives with that. The thing is going forward that is not only even close to guaranteed but likely closer to improbable. I’m actually interested in your answer. I toyed with the idea of posting a poll asking just that question but knew it would just devolve into the same old pro and anti WT posts. If you don’t want to answer here, just DM me. Not trying to call you out in this thread. I really am interested in knowing. One other thing. Again not sure if it was you or someone else that posted the Beavs were a couple of rebounds away from playing in NC game that year. While I love the optimism, one could also say the Beavs were also a couple of plays away from being eliminated in the first round of the Pac 12 tourney ?considering it was an OT win) and not even making the Big Dance. |
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Post by beaverology on Apr 17, 2023 16:39:03 GMT -8
I think WT statute of limitations runs out in 2 years. More than fair to let him go if we're at 12-13 win seasons.
It was me who said both of those. Against Houston, when we tied the game w 3min left, I thought we were gonna win. 2 long rebounds off Coug missed 3's woulda done it.
Yes, we barely beat UCLA, but they were a Final 4 team that year and the talent differential (UCLA v OSU) is always sick.
Appreciate your comments.
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Post by beaverinohio on Apr 17, 2023 16:45:11 GMT -8
I think WT statute of limitations runs out in 2 years. More than fair to let him go if we're at 12-13 win seasons. It was me who said both of those. Against Houston, when we tied the game w 3min left, I thought we were gonna win. 2 long rebounds off Coug missed 3's woulda done it. Yes, we barely beat UCLA, but they were a Final 4 team that year and the talent differential (UCLA v OSU) is always sick. Appreciate your comments. Thanks for the response. Go Beavs. |
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Apr 17, 2023 18:14:01 GMT -8
I've said many times the Elite 8 bought him a year during and after the 3 win season.
This season bought him next season, not the Elite 8 season. The Elite 8 season is relevant in evaluating his overall performance. Those who say the bad seasons are proof of Tinkle should be fired are completely overlooking any of his successes.
In my opinion, the Elite 8 season is basically irrelevant going forward as far as retaining him, and the 3 win season is also irrelevant going forward as far as firing him.
Barring more defections he has brought in 4 freshman who make for a very good base. I think 15/16 wins next season and likelihood of continued improvement probably buys him another year after that. Less wins than that it gets dicey in that 11-14 win range, a drop in performance or wins from this season could very well result in a coaching change.
There were people who were all up in arms to fire him after the 5 win season, but he was back to .500 in a season and the team basically got screwed by not getting an NIT invite the next year. The following year the tournaments were canceled but OSU had a very good RPI, basically the NIT was likely a lock and a win over highly ranked Oregon (who they had beaten 5 weeks earlier) the day the league tournament was canceled could have had NCAA tournament repercussions. The next season was the Elite 8 season.
The team nearly quadrupled the wins this year (not a huge accomplishment but still obvious improvement) and from where I sit there's nothing I can see that says the team can't be back in the tournament in a couple years.
I am reminded of what Mike Price said about WSU a couple of years after he left. It was to the effect of it being a very difficult school to win atn but with a consistent plan you could have a good couple of years, with a big drop off and a rebuilding project again, basically rinse and repeat. It was a different sport but a very similar scenario here.
I feel Tinkle is a better coach, and OSU basketball is in a worse situation as far as institutional support, than some here give either credit for. A simple firing and replacement would be basically a roll of the dice unless the institutional support factor changes. Might as well improve the institutional support and see where the program goes for the immediate upcoming season... boost the recruiting budget and other support budgets to the level that it's at least in the mid-range for the league. Supporting the program under the current coach at least signals the next hire that they will be supported.
His time may be nearing it's end, but he and his athletes have pretty much represented the university well, and if the team continues to improve I'd think he will be retained.
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Post by beaverinohio on Apr 17, 2023 18:27:21 GMT -8
Thanks for the response.
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