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Post by nabeav on Jun 8, 2022 10:58:40 GMT -8
And yet with pitch counts and required days of rest all the way through high school now, we continue to see a rise in Tommy John surgeries amongst pitchers. Shorter offseasons, increased emphasis on velocity and spin rates seem to be bigger factors than number of pitches thrown on a particular day or over a short period of time.
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Post by nuclearbeaver on Jun 8, 2022 10:59:37 GMT -8
Well of course. Just saying there’s no real comparison between a player 140 years ago and today. Players today aren’t even drunk.
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Post by irimi on Jun 8, 2022 11:18:48 GMT -8
I prefer the approach that Dorman brings. I think he is more careful than Yeskie was, and Dorman wants the pitchers to succeed--not just win the game. I don't know that perception is reality here. I thought that maybe we had overused pitchers in the past too, but when looking at the number of pitches some of our top throwers have made throughout the years, it always tops out around 1700-1800 pitches. Hjerpe is at 1600 right now, will probably get to about 1700 this weekend with a chance to get up around 1800-1900 in Omaha. The one outlier is Luke Heimlich, who threw over 2000 pitches in a season twice in his career, according to osubeavers.com I'll buy that. I stand firmly in the camp against having pitchers throw 7-8 innings each week, as was suggest by OP. For one, it doesn't allow much for development of the other pitchers. But it also surely wears out pitchers. I've watched Japanese high school baseball tournaments where the star pitcher will throw and throw and throw with little rest. Yu Darvish, I think it was, wasn't happy with being coddled here in the MLB. He wanted to throw and throw and throw. So I don't have any answers...except that at the college level, we should do everything possible to keep the pitcher's health a priority. So far, it seems like Dorman is doing that. |
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Post by irimi on Jun 8, 2022 11:20:16 GMT -8
Well of course. Just saying there’s no real comparison between a player 140 years ago and today. Players today aren’t even drunk. And they don't smoke. They eat health food, drink green tea, and do yoga and meditation. |
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Post by nuclearbeaver on Jun 8, 2022 11:22:38 GMT -8
Well of course. Just saying there’s no real comparison between a player 140 years ago and today. Players today aren’t even drunk. And they don't smoke. They eat health food, drink green tea, and do yoga and meditation. Probs why they can only get 15 wins a season pitching. Was just looking at some history. I bet the baseball players thought the HBP rule instituted in 1884 was for wusses. Before that it was just a ball lol |
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Post by Judge Smails on Jun 8, 2022 11:32:07 GMT -8
Hasn’t it been pretty much proven that TJ and other issues are about childhood wear and tear and bad mechanics? Isn’t that why there’s so much pitch count control for young arms now? See Chin's post above. It's primarily from overuse, but it is cumulative and not from one or too times of throwing too many pitches. And yes, there are a lot of other factors including mechanics and plain old genetics that factor into it. You didn't see the number of TJ's in the past because pitchers would not try to throw every pitch with maximum effort like they do now. |
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Post by Judge Smails on Jun 8, 2022 11:32:34 GMT -8
Well of course. Just saying there’s no real comparison between a player 140 years ago and today. Players today aren’t even drunk. You sure? |
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Post by nuclearbeaver on Jun 8, 2022 11:40:45 GMT -8
Well of course. Just saying there’s no real comparison between a player 140 years ago and today. Players today aren’t even drunk. You sure? No, if there’s a sport you could get away with being completely blasted it’s baseball…and rugby. |
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Post by Judge Smails on Jun 8, 2022 11:42:20 GMT -8
No, if there’s a sport you could get away with being completely blasted it’s baseball…and rugby. I hung out with Rugby guys in college.........that is definitely the case. |
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Jun 8, 2022 11:48:17 GMT -8
I don't know that perception is reality here. I thought that maybe we had overused pitchers in the past too, but when looking at the number of pitches some of our top throwers have made throughout the years, it always tops out around 1700-1800 pitches. Hjerpe is at 1600 right now, will probably get to about 1700 this weekend with a chance to get up around 1800-1900 in Omaha. The one outlier is Luke Heimlich, who threw over 2000 pitches in a season twice in his career, according to osubeavers.com How many surgeries has Heimlich had? Zero to my knowledge, but that won't stop muckraking sports writers from getting suburban Karen fired up over some alleged grievance. IMO Beaver pitchers haven't been overused since the 2006 CWS and that had more to do with how the loser bracket and scheduling was set up. Besides, overuse was more prevalent in the decades before pitch counts became the norm and sports medicine & science became more advanced. Things have gotten better not worse on this issue and it needs to be acknowledged. I believe Luke had surgery this past winter; not sure if it was elbow or shoulder. |
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Post by irimi on Jun 8, 2022 12:18:11 GMT -8
No, if there’s a sport you could get away with being completely blasted it’s baseball…and rugby. I hung out with Rugby guys in college.........that is definitely the case. Isn’t it sorta required? |
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Post by rgeorge on Jun 8, 2022 13:15:18 GMT -8
And yet with pitch counts and required days of rest all the way through high school now, we continue to see a rise in Tommy John surgeries amongst pitchers. Shorter offseasons, increased emphasis on velocity and spin rates seem to be bigger factors than number of pitches thrown on a particular day or over a short period of time. Folks forget that "pitch counts"/rules are not a factor in club and summer ball. Yes... some coaches are super aware and careful. Others not so much. Add... kids of this generation have "lessons", tournament teams, club teams, school teams, summer traveling teams, etc. There is ample opportunities for arms to be "used up". It's medical science so there is no absolute. Some kids can toss forever and not have an issue, others can be as careful and be in tip top shape and undergo the knife. But, as with any movement injury, the more use, the more wear and tear. A pitcher who throws a 7 inning, 95-100 pitch outing will be near 200 tosses by days end. Warmups... short/long toss, shuffle catch, mound warmup, and between inning pitches all are wear and tear. Some are not under the stress of game conditions or throwing "full" force, but it is wear and tear. Couple the fact that HS pitchers are typically the best athletes on their team, they also play another position that requires throwing during games and practices. And, the same applies to the younger ages/leagues. Pitching/pitchers are a "meat market". Injuries at the higher levels are almost expected. The draft is stocked full of arms to fill all the levels of ball with the expectation that very few actually make it thru injury free or have the talent to take the mound at the MLB level. No matter the precautions arm injuries will happen. Science can prevent them, but at least now they are not career ending for most. |
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Post by bigorangebeaver on Jun 8, 2022 19:10:30 GMT -8
Old Hoss Radbourn would like a word: 1884 60 Wins. 12 Losses. 678.2 IP. 73 CG. 1.38 ERA. 2672 BF. 441 SO. Okay that’s cool but baseball players were so bad back then they allowed catching it on a bounce as an out. Nope. That rule went out in 1864 for fair fly balls, and 1883 for foul fly balls. Some players also played barehanded. And I would argue that they were very good players--Certainly the best of their day, which is all that we can really compare them with, given changes in rules, travel, equipment, training, etc., etc. |
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Post by bigorangebeaver on Jun 8, 2022 19:15:40 GMT -8
Old Hoss Radbourn would like a word: 1884 60 Wins. 12 Losses. 678.2 IP. 73 CG. 1.38 ERA. 2672 BF. 441 SO. I wonder if how fast his fastball was….Of if he threw junk like they do today. I’m curious what made a good pitcher back 140 years ago. No idea on the speed, but clearly (much?) slower than now. As for what made a good pitcher? Stamina and the ability to get batters out. IOW, pretty much the same as now. Oh, and at least in the league/year we are discussing here (1884), the ability to play in the field as well--You played nine players with no subs. Radbourn played in the outfield and at 2nd base when he was not pitching. This article provides an account of Radbourn as a fielder--It's worth a read. |
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Post by justdamwin on Jun 8, 2022 21:05:49 GMT -8
And yet with pitch counts and required days of rest all the way through high school now, we continue to see a rise in Tommy John surgeries amongst pitchers. Shorter offseasons, increased emphasis on velocity and spin rates seem to be bigger factors than number of pitches thrown on a particular day or over a short period of time. Folks forget that "pitch counts"/rules are not a factor in club and summer ball. Yes... some coaches are super aware and careful. Others not so much. Add... kids of this generation have "lessons", tournament teams, club teams, school teams, summer traveling teams, etc. There is ample opportunities for arms to be "used up". It's medical science so there is no absolute. Some kids can toss forever and not have an issue, others can be as careful and be in tip top shape and undergo the knife. But, as with any movement injury, the more use, the more wear and tear. A pitcher who throws a 7 inning, 95-100 pitch outing will be near 200 tosses by days end. Warmups... short/long toss, shuffle catch, mound warmup, and between inning pitches all are wear and tear. Some are not under the stress of game conditions or throwing "full" force, but it is wear and tear. Couple the fact that HS pitchers are typically the best athletes on their team, they also play another position that requires throwing during games and practices. And, the same applies to the younger ages/leagues. Pitching/pitchers are a "meat market". Injuries at the higher levels are almost expected. The draft is stocked full of arms to fill all the levels of ball with the expectation that very few actually make it thru injury free or have the talent to take the mound at the MLB level. No matter the precautions arm injuries will happen. Science can prevent them, but at least now they are not career ending for most. Age and physical maturity of the arm is a big factor. Those 11-14 is really where care is needed as bone twist is a major concern and often what leads to later injury . Also, throwing from a mound versus flat ground increases torque on the arm exponentially. Be ware of your private lesson coach or travel ball and little league coach.... Baseball's hidden underbelly like CTE is to football. |
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