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Post by qbeaver on Jun 7, 2022 12:04:49 GMT -8
One elite pitcher and two inconsistent pitchers Bob. It's been good enough to get us to the top 16 and a Super at home.
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Post by nabeav on Jun 7, 2022 12:34:02 GMT -8
I think the issue we have with pitching is that none of our starters get you more than 5/6 and most if not all of our bull pen arms do not have the same effectiveness when pitching more than once a weekend. Id say this is mostly a result of protecting our guys arms throughout a season. Especially in comparison to the way other teams use their “top guys”. Not saying we are wrong for doing it. But it is an advantage when you have some real work horses going into a double elimination tourney. Which i would say we DO NOT have. So you would rather have the young stud throw like hell in the tournament and need TJ surgery in the off-season and a year or two to recover? No, thanks. I love our last National Championship, but I’d give it up to have Abel healthy and fine. And if we can win without blowing out arms, then we’re really making a full team, not a team that relies on one or two arms. I don't necessarily think that the fact that he pitched on short rest in the CWS led to him having TJ. Will Frisch only threw 56.2 inning last year (Abel threw 81.1 his freshman season) and had to get TJ. I think it's a risk that all pitchers run if they throw hard and their mechanics aren't perfect (and maybe even if they are). Obviously I'm not a doctor and I'm not going to say any of this with absolute certainty, but the emphasis on velocity and spin rates and "inches of run" on pitches I think means every single pitch by every pitcher these days is being thrown with maximum effort, and most arms can't withstand it unless your mechanics are perfect and the rest of your body is perfectly conditioned to help lessen the stress on the elbow. Several pitchers from OSU who weren't called on to pitch the national championship game on short rest had TJ surgery. Conversely, Jonah Nickerson never had Tommy John surgery and he threw roughly 5,000 pitches in Omaha. Furthermore, Abel had TJ surgery almost a full year later. In the article about him having surgery, he said he didn't throw a single pitch between June and October that year. Maybe you could argue that the extended break actually stiffened up the UCL and the damage occurred after ramping up again following such a long stretch of inactivity? He also tweaked his back at one point, and maybe the weakness in his back put more stress on his arm as he started to throw again following that injury? I'm not a huge proponent of throwing guys 100+ pitches in a game, mostly because there's so much data out there showing how ineffective people are the third time through the order as they tire and the hitters develop a familiarity with the pitcher, but I generally don't think you're risking serious injury just because you throw 100 pitches. |
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Post by nabeav on Jun 7, 2022 12:37:40 GMT -8
I also like the idea that people are willing to give back national championships and team success to keep baseball players healthy and have a more well-rounded roster. I'd like some of that energy during football and baseball season when people are like "why is the running back with 35 carries already getting a breather? I don't want to win this game, I just want to make sure everyone is healthy and not dinged up at the end" or "why did we just take Ethan Thompson out? This backup point guard isn't good enough!"
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Post by jefframp on Jun 7, 2022 12:52:11 GMT -8
Jonah Nickerson threw roughly 5,000 pitches in Omaha? Yikes!
Maybe more like 300 over two years (2005 & 2006).
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Post by nuclearbeaver on Jun 7, 2022 13:15:36 GMT -8
It’s not great or anything but they get the job done. They usually come out when they start losing command. Why leave a struggling starter in when you have Ferrer, Sebby, Lattery, Verberg, Carpenter and Brown available. I’m sure of we needed to we could extend them but we just don’t have a need. Did you just mention Carpenter? Yeah, I guess he is available but................ If he’s on he’s a killer. If he’s not he’s a liability. Whatcha gonna do |
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Post by mbabeav on Jun 7, 2022 13:48:28 GMT -8
Verberg and Carpenter have a major tell I look for. If the first batter goes down, I feel much more comfortable. But if the first batter squares up and barrels the ball, even if it's just a deep out or liner right at somebody, I get ready for a rough ride.
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Post by grovestbeav on Jun 7, 2022 14:11:07 GMT -8
I think the issue we have with pitching is that none of our starters get you more than 5/6 and most if not all of our bull pen arms do not have the same effectiveness when pitching more than once a weekend. Id say this is mostly a result of protecting our guys arms throughout a season. Especially in comparison to the way other teams use their “top guys”. Not saying we are wrong for doing it. But it is an advantage when you have some real work horses going into a double elimination tourney. Which i would say we DO NOT have. So you would rather have the young stud throw like hell in the tournament and need TJ surgery in the off-season and a year or two to recover? No, thanks. I love our last National Championship, but I’d give it up to have Abel healthy and fine. And if we can win without blowing out arms, then we’re really making a full team, not a team that relies on one or two arms. I think you are completely missing the point. |
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Post by nuclearbeaver on Jun 7, 2022 15:34:28 GMT -8
So our Saturday and Sunday guys have gone 6+, 5 times? I dont know if I consider that very good. I miss the days of Boyd and Wetzler throwing complete games. I think it probably looks a whole lot different if we had a healthy Pfennigs and Will Frisch. Frisch has a career 2.42 ERA in 67 innings and was all-conference last year. They were obviously cautious with Pfennigs coming back during the season after missing about 6 weeks. All things considered, I'd say that's a pretty good job. Of Frisch returns next year he will be in a very good spot to up his draft stock. I hope Ferrer returns too but who knows. Sebby, Verburg, Hjerpe are 100% gone. |
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Post by irimi on Jun 7, 2022 15:34:49 GMT -8
So you would rather have the young stud throw like hell in the tournament and need TJ surgery in the off-season and a year or two to recover? No, thanks. I love our last National Championship, but I’d give it up to have Abel healthy and fine. And if we can win without blowing out arms, then we’re really making a full team, not a team that relies on one or two arms. I think you are completely missing the point. Am I? You want a pitcher to pitch longer into games. To pitch 7, 8, or 9 innings. But with that, you run a risk of injury and trouble. I'm OK with the pitchers going for 5 or 6 innings and relief coming in. Don't exhaust the pitcher. Keep him strong going into the regionals and beyond. |
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Post by tamatrix on Jun 7, 2022 15:37:50 GMT -8
Hjerpe was going to throw 20ish full speed pitches on Monday whether he threw or not, that's normal routine and most everyone should know that...
He threw 36, a bit more than usual but to even suggest that 16 pitches extra has any tie to TJ is completely and utterly ridiculous
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Post by irimi on Jun 7, 2022 15:46:12 GMT -8
I also like the idea that people are willing to give back national championships and team success to keep baseball players healthy and have a more well-rounded roster. I'd like some of that energy during football and baseball season when people are like "why is the running back with 35 carries already getting a breather? I don't want to win this game, I just want to make sure everyone is healthy and not dinged up at the end" or "why did we just take Ethan Thompson out? This backup point guard isn't good enough!" Ah, but the cost was great. Sure we all loved the moment. And I'm sure that Abel would've told Nate off if he had tried to pull him out of the third game. But you've got to use your head. It cost Abel physically and he was never the same. He both made his career and lost it in the same night...assuming that game is what led to the TJ surgery. I prefer the approach that Dorman brings. I think he is more careful than Yeskie was, and Dorman wants the pitchers to succeed--not just win the game. Of course, I know nothing as a fact. Dorman could be burning up pitchers, but it sure doesn't look like it. And I think that this approach has brought us to the Supers in pretty good shape, pitching-wise. You may disagree. Football is a different sport. Full contact. The injury to Gebbia, for example, wasn't due to throwing the ball too much. It was an asshole Duck player. In other words, on every play there is potential for injury that cannot be escaped. To a lesser extent, basketball is the same as football. There are still injuries that occur due to exhaustion, I'm sure...rolled ankles and the like, but not like baseball for the pitcher. Your comparing apples and oysters (the original expression, which I happen to like much better than apples and oranges). |
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Post by irimi on Jun 7, 2022 15:52:47 GMT -8
So you would rather have the young stud throw like hell in the tournament and need TJ surgery in the off-season and a year or two to recover? No, thanks. I love our last National Championship, but I’d give it up to have Abel healthy and fine. And if we can win without blowing out arms, then we’re really making a full team, not a team that relies on one or two arms. I don't necessarily think that the fact that he pitched on short rest in the CWS led to him having TJ. Will Frisch only threw 56.2 inning last year (Abel threw 81.1 his freshman season) and had to get TJ. I think it's a risk that all pitchers run if they throw hard and their mechanics aren't perfect (and maybe even if they are). Obviously I'm not a doctor and I'm not going to say any of this with absolute certainty, but the emphasis on velocity and spin rates and "inches of run" on pitches I think means every single pitch by every pitcher these days is being thrown with maximum effort, and most arms can't withstand it unless your mechanics are perfect and the rest of your body is perfectly conditioned to help lessen the stress on the elbow. Several pitchers from OSU who weren't called on to pitch the national championship game on short rest had TJ surgery. Conversely, Jonah Nickerson never had Tommy John surgery and he threw roughly 5,000 pitches in Omaha. Furthermore, Abel had TJ surgery almost a full year later. In the article about him having surgery, he said he didn't throw a single pitch between June and October that year. Maybe you could argue that the extended break actually stiffened up the UCL and the damage occurred after ramping up again following such a long stretch of inactivity? He also tweaked his back at one point, and maybe the weakness in his back put more stress on his arm as he started to throw again following that injury? I'm not a huge proponent of throwing guys 100+ pitches in a game, mostly because there's so much data out there showing how ineffective people are the third time through the order as they tire and the hitters develop a familiarity with the pitcher, but I generally don't think you're risking serious injury just because you throw 100 pitches. I agree. I don't know that Abel's surgery had anything to do with the National Championship game, anymore than picking up his suitcase wrong on the way home from Omaha. I have faith that Dorman knows what he is doing. I don't think we really want our pitchers to throw 8 innings each outing through the year. After all, how can we develop our relief pitchers? And today's relief pitcher is next year's starter. We aren't the MLB, which can push pitchers much harder. |
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Post by irimi on Jun 7, 2022 15:55:21 GMT -8
Hjerpe was going to throw 20ish full speed pitches on Monday whether he threw or not, that's normal routine and most everyone should know that... He threw 36, a bit more than usual but to even suggest that 16 pitches extra has any tie to TJ is completely and utterly ridiculous Is anyone saying that? In case, it's unclear, I am simply saying that pitching 7-8 innings each outing should not be a goal that we set for the starters. It's crazy. |
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Post by castorcanadensis on Jun 7, 2022 16:03:41 GMT -8
Hjerpe was going to throw 20ish full speed pitches on Monday whether he threw or not, that's normal routine and most everyone should know that... He threw 36, a bit more than usual but to even suggest that 16 pitches extra has any tie to TJ is completely and utterly ridiculous Is anyone saying that? In case, it's unclear, I am simply saying that pitching 7-8 innings each outing should not be a goal that we set for the starters. It's crazy. Yes, If i remember correctly Cooper said it in the post game interviews. He said he always throws about 20 pitches or 5 or 6 of each pitch type full speed on Mondays. |
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Post by ochobeavo on Jun 7, 2022 16:15:49 GMT -8
Hjerpe was going to throw 20ish full speed pitches on Monday whether he threw or not, that's normal routine and most everyone should know that... He threw 36, a bit more than usual but to even suggest that 16 pitches extra has any tie to TJ is completely and utterly ridiculous For what it’s worth - the argument “against” that I’ve seen multiple times now is that while yes, he threw 36 pitches - but when you factor in his warm up session in the pen + warm ups on the mound before the 8th and 9th then that number is significantly higher. |
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