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Post by irimi on Dec 17, 2021 9:56:53 GMT -8
RPI has Oregon State playing the 30th-hardest schedule.
Arizona and Iowa State are each 10-0.
Wake Forest is 10-1, only loss to LSU (#3 NET) in Destin.
Samford is 5-2, only losses to undefeated San Francisco (#10 NET) and Belmont (#14 NET).
Princeton is 8-3, only losses to Minnesota (#11 NET) in 2OT, @ Monmouth (#32 NET) and @ Hofstra.
California and Tulsa are each 6-5.
California started 0-2. Since, the Bears have only lost to Florida (#60 NET) and Seton Hall (#23 NET) in Fort Myers and @ Utah (#67 NET).
Three of Tulsa's losses were to Utah (#67 NET) in Daytona Beach, @ Boise State (#72 NET) and 7-2 Air Force. Plus Oregon State lost to Tulsa in Tulsa.
Penn State is 5-5.
Penn State's last four losses are to: LSU (#3 NET) in Destin in OT, 8-3 Miami, 8-2 Ohio State (#18 NET) and @ 9-2 Michigan State (#12 NET).
UC Davis has had some terrible games but also has that upset in Logan against Utah State (#32 NET). If you catch them at their best, UC Davis can get you.
Portland State is trash in comparison, and Oregon State won.
The Beavers should be better than 1-9, but going 1-9 against that schedule a terrible team does not make.
The nine losses were nine difficult games. And A&M might be fourth on the foregoing list. So, I am not expecting a turnaround, but I still have faith in Tinkle to eventually turn it around. If not this season, then next. He probably ain't going anywhere, anyway.
First, one of your main arguments seems to be that many of the teams OSU lost to have lost to good teams. Losing to a good team does not in turn make that team good. If it did than with losses to the #1 and #17 teams in NET, Oregon State would be a very good team. I also notice that you’ve cited the NET rankings for many of the Beavs opponents and opponents’ opponents. Strangely, I see no mention of the Beavers NET ranking. Why? Maybe because it is currently 275. I’m sure you’re very familiar with the four teams directly in front of the Beavers in the NET — Bellarmine, Bryant, UT-Arlington and UT- Martin. No? How about the 3 teams directly below — Tarleton State, NJIT and Sacred Heart? I’ll save people the effort of looking up NJIT like I had to. It is the New Jersey institute of Technology. If seeing Oregon State sandwiched between those 7 schools in a basketball ranking doesn’t make you sick, I don’t know what to tell you. But for me it isn’t just the results, but how the team has gotten there. They have no identity nor leader. One can point to having to integrate all the new players, but that shouldn’t preclude showing hustle, grit and toughness. I think one stat from the UC-Davis game sums up the season so far very well. Beavs were out scored 40-26 in the paint. That should not happen against UC-Davis. But then again, maybe I’m living in the past. After all UC-Davis is 112 spots higher in the NET than Beavs. Maybe that stat isn’t that surprising. I don't follow closely enough, but to assert that the quality of a loss means nothing sort of undermines the whole ranking system and strength of schedule idea. Georgia lost to Alabama (football). Is that equal to the Beavs losing to Colorado State? A loss is a loss, right? I get the feeling that the lack of an identity seems to be a common trait for most Tinkle teams. Last year (at the end of the year), was the exception. Why? I've always thought that most Tinkle teams seem less like a group and more like a collection of individuals. When we are strong, we have that central person on the floor managing things. |
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Post by atownbeaver on Dec 17, 2021 10:50:58 GMT -8
Does everyone realize that WTs record into the 8th year is 114 - 118 overall and 52 - 78 in Pac 12 play? This last march while it was exciting doesn't paint a true picture. We have 4 players FOUR that were recruited as true freshmen. That my friends is beyond poor recruiting. There are five seniors that will leave at the end of the year and likely a few transferring out. So next year it will be another round of trying to grab several somebodies from some distant schools to try and form a team. It's one thing to get one or two transfers to fill holes its another where a vast majority of the players are transfers. It isn't a way to build a team. All caused by poor high school recruiting. 114-118 and 52-78 ALSO doesn't paint a true picture. outside of one disaster of a season (until now...) he was 108-82 overall, with 5 winning seasons, 1 .500 season, and that one losing season. 2 NCAA appearances, one going to the elite 8. So, yeah, while the overall record is sub .500 the median performance of Tinkle is roughly an 18 win season. Which, of course, is why I don't get it. His previous disaster season featured GPII leaving, Tinkle getting hurt and Eubanks being the only decent player. It sort of made sense. THIS season, we have a competitive D-1 roster that has absolutely no business whatsoever only having 1 win. As you note, we are senior heavy no less! Tinkle is an enigma. The guy has mostly won, but when he is bad... he is REALLY bad it appears. not much in-between. other than that 5 win season, his next worse season is a 16-16 .500 season! Regardless is all points to one pretty undeniable truth, this season so far is inexcusable. |
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Post by nabeav on Dec 17, 2021 11:16:43 GMT -8
8th year is 114 - 118 overall and 52 - 78 in Pac 12 play. History speaks for itself. Why continue to make excuses for a sub 500 coach? Your right he will be back next year because an athletic director made a decision that may get him fired and extended him like he is a good coach and recruiter. He is neither. Not making excuses. Just not ready to hit the reset button yet. There seems to be this idea that if someone doesn't want to fire the coach immediately, they are "accepting mediocrity" or "making excuses" or "a Tinkle supporter." That I don't think he should be fired right now does not mean I want to give him a lifetime contract and put him in the rafters next to Slats and Ralph. I'm just against nuking a program that just went to the Elite 8. Against firing a coach that has already proven that he can recover from a terrible season. Against firing a coach that (thus far) has had just one losing season in his 7+ years at the helm. He's not the next John Wooden, but he's also not worth discarding because the team looks crappy right now. If we're crappy all year, and next year again starts crappy, then OK come talk to me about making a change. I don't know if the reliance on transfers is a result of not being able to land the high school guys we want, or just the fact that the transfers are better than the high school guys we can get, or how that all shakes out. We certainly haven't had success in keeping high school recruits that aren't relatives or Oregonians in the program (Gianni and Jared Lucas and who really?) so maybe that's shifted the focus to transfer kids? I don't know...I haven't heard coach speak on this. I think it's OK to be upset and frustrated with how the season has gone and also not favor firing the coach, and I suspect I'm not the only one. |
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Post by alwaysorange on Dec 17, 2021 11:26:25 GMT -8
Seems people are trying to put lipstick on a pig.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Dec 17, 2021 11:43:33 GMT -8
RPI has Oregon State playing the 30th-hardest schedule.
Arizona and Iowa State are each 10-0.
Wake Forest is 10-1, only loss to LSU (#3 NET) in Destin.
Samford is 5-2, only losses to undefeated San Francisco (#10 NET) and Belmont (#14 NET).
Princeton is 8-3, only losses to Minnesota (#11 NET) in 2OT, @ Monmouth (#32 NET) and @ Hofstra.
California and Tulsa are each 6-5.
California started 0-2. Since, the Bears have only lost to Florida (#60 NET) and Seton Hall (#23 NET) in Fort Myers and @ Utah (#67 NET).
Three of Tulsa's losses were to Utah (#67 NET) in Daytona Beach, @ Boise State (#72 NET) and 7-2 Air Force. Plus Oregon State lost to Tulsa in Tulsa.
Penn State is 5-5.
Penn State's last four losses are to: LSU (#3 NET) in Destin in OT, 8-3 Miami, 8-2 Ohio State (#18 NET) and @ 9-2 Michigan State (#12 NET).
UC Davis has had some terrible games but also has that upset in Logan against Utah State (#32 NET). If you catch them at their best, UC Davis can get you.
Portland State is trash in comparison, and Oregon State won.
The Beavers should be better than 1-9, but going 1-9 against that schedule a terrible team does not make.
The nine losses were nine difficult games. And A&M might be fourth on the foregoing list. So, I am not expecting a turnaround, but I still have faith in Tinkle to eventually turn it around. If not this season, then next. He probably ain't going anywhere, anyway.
First, one of your main arguments seems to be that many of the teams OSU lost to have lost to good teams. Losing to a good team does not in turn make that team good. If it did than with losses to the #1 and #17 teams in NET, Oregon State would be a very good team. I also notice that you’ve cited the NET rankings for many of the Beavs opponents and opponents’ opponents. Strangely, I see no mention of the Beavers NET ranking. Why? Maybe because it is currently 275. I’m sure you’re very familiar with the four teams directly in front of the Beavers in the NET — Bellarmine, Bryant, UT-Arlington and UT- Martin. No? How about the 3 teams directly below — Tarleton State, NJIT and Sacred Heart? I’ll save people the effort of looking up NJIT like I had to. It is the New Jersey institute of Technology. If seeing Oregon State sandwiched between those 7 schools in a basketball ranking doesn’t make you sick, I don’t know what to tell you. But for me it isn’t just the results, but how the team has gotten there. They have no identity nor leader. One can point to having to integrate all the new players, but that shouldn’t preclude showing hustle, grit and toughness. I think one stat from the UC-Davis game sums up the season so far very well. Beavs were out scored 40-26 in the paint. That should not happen against UC-Davis. But then again, maybe I’m living in the past. After all UC-Davis is 112 spots higher in the NET than Beavs. Maybe that stat isn’t that surprising. My main arguments is SOS. 30th. My second argument is record of opponents. Who else in the country has played 10 games so far and only one with a losing record? Point 'em out. Let's compare. My third argument is that our opponents don't get beat often, and, when they do, they tend to get beat by great teams. Look at our five best opponents so far. So far, their combined worst loss is a road loss to Hofstra. Otherwise, our top five opponents have not lost to a team that is sub-35 in the NET. My fourth argument is that California was terrible but seems to have turned it around. Their worst loss since the 0-2 start is either a loss to Florida in Fort Myers or a loss to Utah in Salt Lake City, neither are really bad losses. The majority of Tulsa's losses are to good teams Tulsa losing to Utah in Salt Lake and @ Boise make sense in the grand scheme of things. The majority of Penn State's losses are against quality opponents. Oregon State is sans one functioning center. Andela is out. And Silva is beat up. Ahmand Rand is 6' 8" and is really playing out-of-position, when he is playing the five. We miss Washington something awful. That transfer stings. It seems like Oregon State plays more than 80% of each game without a true center, which hurts. Gianni Hunt should be seeing the minutes that he is seeing either. He is too inconsistent. Another transfer that stings is Tariq Silver. That guy is averaging more than 14 points a game now at Austin Peay. Calloo and Lucas have neither progressed to the point that they can really create their own shots. It would have been much better if Calloo or Lucas would have transferred rather than Silver. It might still come together, or it might continue to be ugly. A&M looks like a loss, but I am hoping for a surprise on Saturday. |
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Post by nabeav on Dec 17, 2021 14:16:11 GMT -8
Seems people are trying to put lipstick on a pig. Are you saying there's no chance that the team improves this season, or that there's no chance that next year's team competes for a postseason berth? Because that's all we're saying. There's no evidence that the current coaching staff can't or won't be able to turn this around. |
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Post by atownbeaver on Dec 17, 2021 14:46:15 GMT -8
Seems people are trying to put lipstick on a pig. Most fans are extremists. Just is what it is. There were Patriot fans last year that wanted Belichick fired. There are Steeler fans that want Tomlin fired. There are Saints fans this year that want Payton fired. Lions fans really wanted Caldwell fired, and got their wish and Caldwell's 9 win seasons and first round playoff exits have been the best performance in 3 decades at Detroit. There was a "drought" after back to back NCs that saw some people calling for Casey even. Fans are stupid. To be sure, I am not calling you stupid. But I am saying it is easy to not have realistic expectations, and simply "demand excellence always" No other coach since Miller has won as many games or has as many winning seasons. Simple fact. Trying to analytically assess the the real true status of the team and the program isn't putting lipstick on a pig. Being real about expectations relative to talent and resources is not putting lipstick on a pig. Knowing we owe Tinkle a poop load of money and even if he loses every game this season he is still the best coach we have had in 30 years is just a sad fact... and not lipstick on a pig. All I will say is Tinkle has a record that says he deserves to keep his job as it is relative to Oregon State's status and historic performance AND at the same time, is giving a performance this year that deserves him to be fired. Most places would fire a coach doing this poorly without a REAL good reason (like multiple serious injuries or something). |
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Post by nabeav on Dec 17, 2021 15:21:49 GMT -8
Take Oregon State's historic status out of it. He's had non-losing seasons in 6 of 7 years. He's made the tournament twice in the last six seasons, only Arizona (3), UCLA (3), Oregon (4) and USC (3) have more. Their average finish in the Pac-12 is around 8th, but the past three years it's been 6th....right in the middle of the Pac-12. Obviously finishing sixth every year is not the goal, but I don't think it represents abject failure either.
Also, I will lose it if someone mentions "well look what Scott Rueck has done with women's basketball, or what Pat Casey did with baseball." If people arguing Tinkle should keep his job aren't allowed to compare him to previous OSU men's basketball coaches, the we can't compare him to coaches in other freaking sports either.
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Post by beaverinohio on Dec 17, 2021 15:29:45 GMT -8
My main arguments is SOS. 30th. My second argument is record of opponents. Who else in the country has played 10 games so far and only one with a losing record? Point 'em out. Let's compare. My third argument is that our opponents don't get beat often, and, when they do, they tend to get beat by great teams. Look at our five best opponents so far. So far, their combined worst loss is a road loss to Hofstra. Otherwise, our top five opponents have not lost to a team that is sub-35 in the NET. My fourth argument is that California was terrible but seems to have turned it around. Their worst loss since the 0-2 start is either a loss to Florida in Fort Myers or a loss to Utah in Salt Lake City, neither are really bad losses. The majority of Tulsa's losses are to good teams Tulsa losing to Utah in Salt Lake and @ Boise make sense in the grand scheme of things. The majority of Penn State's losses are against quality opponents. Oregon State is sans one functioning center. Andela is out. And Silva is beat up. Ahmand Rand is 6' 8" and is really playing out-of-position, when he is playing the five. We miss Washington something awful. That transfer stings. It seems like Oregon State plays more than 80% of each game without a true center, which hurts. Gianni Hunt should be seeing the minutes that he is seeing either. He is too inconsistent. Another transfer that stings is Tariq Silver. That guy is averaging more than 14 points a game now at Austin Peay. Calloo and Lucas have neither progressed to the point that they can really create their own shots. It would have been much better if Calloo or Lucas would have transferred rather than Silver. It might still come together, or it might continue to be ugly. A&M looks like a loss, but I am hoping for a surprise on Saturday. 1. Not sure where you are getting 30 for SOS. source I found has it at 69. Also, I believe quality of opponent is a part of NET. That would be the ranking system that has the Beavers #275. 2. I’m not going to sift through 325 teams’ schedules and schedules of opponents. If you have the time you can tell me how many teams have played only 1 team with a losing record. 3. Again losing to good teams does not make you a good team, it just means you played good teams and couldn’t beat them. You seem to be a smart guy, so I’m sure you know that. So don’t tell us who teams lost to, but who they beat. You tell us that the majority of Penn State’s losses are against quality opponents. Who have they beat? Penn State’s wins are against Youngstown St.., St-Francis-NY, Cornell and Wagner. Not exactly traditional powers in college basketball. 4. You said in your original post that the Beavs 9 losses were 9 difficult games. Very true because the Beavers made them difficult. Be honest, if in preseason someone asked you what Beav’s record would be after first 10 games, would you have said 1-9? I doubt it nor should you have. I think the pessimists would have said 5-5. I believe most would have expected more wins than that. I can’t argue that Oregon State would likely be better with Washington ( but come on he left 2 years ago) and Silver, or that Calloo or Lucas haven’t progressed. But aren’t you basically making the argument for those that have said Tinkle can’t keep guys in the program and he’s not very good with player development? I hope Beavs can turn it around, but I’m not holding my breath considering what I’ve seen so far. But I’ll keep watching and rooting. And as I’ve said earlier, I fully expect WT to get at least another year. And as bad as this season has been thus far, I want him to get another year because I don’t want OSU to be that school that fired the HC a year after getting team to Elite Eight — no matter how flukish people might think it is. But don’t try to make it out that this team right now isn’t very good using SOS or the fact that some of the teams we’ve lost to have lost to good teams. |
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Post by beaverinohio on Dec 17, 2021 15:43:49 GMT -8
Seems people are trying to put lipstick on a pig. Are you saying there's no chance that the team improves this season, or that there's no chance that next year's team competes for a postseason berth? Because that's all we're saying. There's no evidence that the current coaching staff can't or won't be able to turn this around. There is no evidence that they can or will either. I think in a previous post you said WT has proven he can recover from a terrible season. I’m assuming you’re referring to the 5 win season when Tres was hurt. I’m not sure if you’re one of those that don’t want to count that season in WT’s record, but if so isn’t it a bit disingenuous to not want to count it because of the injury, but then give him credit for turnaround when Tres comes back the next year? |
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Post by nabeav on Dec 17, 2021 16:22:56 GMT -8
You can't have it both ways. You can't say that the the 5-27 season is proof that Wayne is a bad coach and then say that the results the next season are only because Tres came back. And while the 5-27 unquestionably counts, it's also the lone aberration on an otherwise good resume at OSU (the start of this year notwithstanding).
He's coached two full seasons without Tres on the roster - in those seasons he went 17-14 and 20-13.
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Post by rgeorge on Dec 17, 2021 16:38:57 GMT -8
You can't have it both ways. You can't say that the the 5-27 season is proof that Wayne is a bad coach and then say that the results the next season are only because Tres came back. And while the 5-27 unquestionably counts, it's also the lone aberration on an otherwise good resume at OSU (the start of this year notwithstanding). He's coached two full seasons without Tres on the roster - in those seasons he went 17-14 and 20-13. Which actually backs the point that 5-27 is not really an aberration. But, instead the first sign of no consistent recruiting, no depth or development. NC scheduling has been weak throughout the last 2-3+ coaches. A ton of weak sisters are what props the overall record. The Pac12 record is the true indicator of where OSU stands within the conference. The conference is where it counts. If there is such thing as an anomaly in a coach's record (there isn't, they all count, no cares or keeps track of injuries or excuses) it be the E8 run. Never even close to that level at any time in his career. Covid greatly affected many opponents more severely than OSU. One team self banned (supposedly) from the Pac12 tourney. None of that takes away the great run. But, those circumstances taken together are the definition of an anomaly. Not one key player lost for a season. Happens to teams all the time and it doesn't necessarily lead to a 5-27 record. Having zero players developed and poor recruiting coupled with said injury is on the coach/staff. But, again... there weren't any sons left to sign! |
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Dec 17, 2021 18:07:01 GMT -8
You can't have it both ways. You can't say that the the 5-27 season is proof that Wayne is a bad coach and then say that the results the next season are only because Tres came back. And while the 5-27 unquestionably counts, it's also the lone aberration on an otherwise good resume at OSU (the start of this year notwithstanding). He's coached two full seasons without Tres on the roster - in those seasons he went 17-14 and 20-13. Which actually backs the point that 5-27 is not really an aberration. But, instead the first sign of no consistent recruiting, no depth or development. NC scheduling has been weak throughout the last 2-3+ coaches. A ton of weak sisters are what props the overall record. The Pac12 record is the true indicator of where OSU stands within the conference. The conference is where it counts. If there is such thing as an anomaly in a coach's record (there isn't, they all count, no cares or keeps track of injuries or excuses) it be the E8 run. Never even close to that level at any time in his career. Covid greatly affected many opponents more severely than OSU. One team self banned (supposedly) from the Pac12 tourney. None of that takes away the great run. But, those circumstances taken together are the definition of an anomaly. Not one key player lost for a season. Happens to teams all the time and it doesn't necessarily lead to a 5-27 record. Having zero players developed and poor recruiting coupled with said injury is on the coach/staff. But, again... there weren't any sons left to sign! There you go again.... the 5 and 27 year began weeks after Tinkle's 2nd recruiting class arrived on campus. Using your consistent recruiting to build depth and development argument (which I agree with), that season was on the previous coaching staff. No healthy player and 1 unhealthy player from the previous staff. That season was played with kids who had seen between 0 and 1 season of ball at this level. This year is all on Wayne though. No argument there. The thing is, there's a lot of season left. Let's see how it shakes out. You just said the Pac 12 games are the real indicator of where the team stands in the league. Maybe you should take your own advice and let the season actually happen? |
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Post by jdogge on Dec 17, 2021 18:23:07 GMT -8
First, one of your main arguments seems to be that many of the teams OSU lost to have lost to good teams. Losing to a good team does not in turn make that team good. If it did than with losses to the #1 and #17 teams in NET, Oregon State would be a very good team. I also notice that you’ve cited the NET rankings for many of the Beavs opponents and opponents’ opponents. Strangely, I see no mention of the Beavers NET ranking. Why? Maybe because it is currently 275. I’m sure you’re very familiar with the four teams directly in front of the Beavers in the NET — Bellarmine, Bryant, UT-Arlington and UT- Martin. No? How about the 3 teams directly below — Tarleton State, NJIT and Sacred Heart? I’ll save people the effort of looking up NJIT like I had to. It is the New Jersey institute of Technology. If seeing Oregon State sandwiched between those 7 schools in a basketball ranking doesn’t make you sick, I don’t know what to tell you. But for me it isn’t just the results, but how the team has gotten there. They have no identity nor leader. One can point to having to integrate all the new players, but that shouldn’t preclude showing hustle, grit and toughness. I think one stat from the UC-Davis game sums up the season so far very well. Beavs were out scored 40-26 in the paint. That should not happen against UC-Davis. But then again, maybe I’m living in the past. After all UC-Davis is 112 spots higher in the NET than Beavs. Maybe that stat isn’t that surprising. My main arguments is SOS. 30th. My second argument is record of opponents. Who else in the country has played 10 games so far and only one with a losing record? Point 'em out. Let's compare. My third argument is that our opponents don't get beat often, and, when they do, they tend to get beat by great teams. Look at our five best opponents so far. So far, their combined worst loss is a road loss to Hofstra. Otherwise, our top five opponents have not lost to a team that is sub-35 in the NET. My fourth argument is that California was terrible but seems to have turned it around. Their worst loss since the 0-2 start is either a loss to Florida in Fort Myers or a loss to Utah in Salt Lake City, neither are really bad losses. The majority of Tulsa's losses are to good teams Tulsa losing to Utah in Salt Lake and @ Boise make sense in the grand scheme of things. The majority of Penn State's losses are against quality opponents. Oregon State is sans one functioning center. Andela is out. And Silva is beat up. Ahmand Rand is 6' 8" and is really playing out-of-position, when he is playing the five. We miss Washington something awful. That transfer stings. It seems like Oregon State plays more than 80% of each game without a true center, which hurts. Gianni Hunt should be seeing the minutes that he is seeing either. He is too inconsistent. Another transfer that stings is Tariq Silver. That guy is averaging more than 14 points a game now at Austin Peay. Calloo and Lucas have neither progressed to the point that they can really create their own shots. It would have been much better if Calloo or Lucas would have transferred rather than Silver. It might still come together, or it might continue to be ugly. A&M looks like a loss, but I am hoping for a surprise on Saturday. Shame on you for bringing actual -- you know -- facts to a discussion. |
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Post by Judge Smails on Dec 17, 2021 19:22:23 GMT -8
You can't have it both ways. You can't say that the the 5-27 season is proof that Wayne is a bad coach and then say that the results the next season are only because Tres came back. And while the 5-27 unquestionably counts, it's also the lone aberration on an otherwise good resume at OSU (the start of this year notwithstanding). He's coached two full seasons without Tres on the roster - in those seasons he went 17-14 and 20-13. Which actually backs the point that 5-27 is not really an aberration. But, instead the first sign of no consistent recruiting, no depth or development. NC scheduling has been weak throughout the last 2-3+ coaches. A ton of weak sisters are what props the overall record. The Pac12 record is the true indicator of where OSU stands within the conference. The conference is where it counts. If there is such thing as an anomaly in a coach's record (there isn't, they all count, no cares or keeps track of injuries or excuses) it be the E8 run. Never even close to that level at any time in his career. Covid greatly affected many opponents more severely than OSU. One team self banned (supposedly) from the Pac12 tourney. None of that takes away the great run. But, those circumstances taken together are the definition of an anomaly. Not one key player lost for a season. Happens to teams all the time and it doesn't necessarily lead to a 5-27 record. Having zero players developed and poor recruiting coupled with said injury is on the coach/staff. But, again... there weren't any sons left to sign! So last year it was other teams with COVID that led to our run, but this year, the fact the 6 of our players have had COVID is an excuse and nothing more. Keep talking out both sides of your mouth baseballllls. |
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