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Post by lebaneaver on Jun 26, 2020 10:18:17 GMT -8
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 26, 2020 12:17:24 GMT -8
The media has pretty much buried the fact that recent US Covid-19 hospitalizations have dropped by 70-75% since the 18th of April. There's no way they can handle having it look like things are improving in at least one measurable, better to look at overall totals or point out spots where things aren't getting better. Here's a link to the weekly hospitalization chart... gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_5.html (I couldn't figure out how to display the chart). It'll be interesting to see if the hospitalizations are on an uptick when the next week or two numbers come in. Take a look at the disclaimer on your site. They only track about a dozen states, about 10% of the population of the US. They track 14 states: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Georgia, Iowa, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Tennessee, and Utah.
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Post by irimi on Jun 26, 2020 13:42:01 GMT -8
Take a look at the disclaimer on your site. They only track about a dozen states, about 10% of the population of the US. They track 14 states: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Georgia, Iowa, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Tennessee, and Utah. But not even the whole state.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Jun 26, 2020 14:38:09 GMT -8
Take a look at the disclaimer on your site. They only track about a dozen states, about 10% of the population of the US. They track 14 states: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Georgia, Iowa, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Tennessee, and Utah. Thing is, I think it's the same organization (the CDC) we are relying on for daily totals and overall totals. If these numbers aren't indicative of what's going on, how can we assume any of the numbers we're hearing about are indicative of what's going on.
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Post by atownbeaver on Jun 29, 2020 9:08:52 GMT -8
since last Thursday (i took off this weekend and didn't check any numbers in between) we are down roughly 40+ hospitalizations. You can compare that with the update that will come out around 2 or so today with last week. It is good to see that, and it is good for Oregon to remain semi-open. Case counts likely will not trigger much action, but hospitalizations is the thing that would send us backwards.
Just a general FYI. our case surge in Oregon, fortunately (is that the right word?) has been lower acuity cases and young people.
As for the modelling outfit the state uses, that is forecasting doom and gloom that Beaver94 shared a link to... sure it is possible. I will also note they have provided several other previous projections that never happened either... I also feel that outfit was very late in recognizing the true disease burden in Oregon, it took them until June to finally admit there were way more cases in Oregon already than they were modelling. So, grain of salt on them I think. Problem with their modelling projections, is it isn't tuned enough to reflect our case surge being younger people not requiring hospitalizations, so it is fitting with bad estimators for hospitalization rate. In other words, they are applying a statewide observed hospitalization rate of around 14-15%, to a case surge made up primarily of people that are hospitalized more like 5-7% of the time. and a statewide observed death rate of ~3% to a population that has a 0.1% death rate.
Just my thoughts on that one. And to be sure, I am not trying to be dismissive, COVID is serious. I think the thing that has plagued this outbreak is poor information and poor understanding on the behavior of the disease. Truly unlike many other diseases, this one is hard to understand with the huge variance in how it affects people, young and old.
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Post by zeroposter on Jun 29, 2020 17:01:52 GMT -8
since last Thursday (i took off this weekend and didn't check any numbers in between) we are down roughly 40+ hospitalizations. You can compare that with the update that will come out around 2 or so today with last week. It is good to see that, and it is good for Oregon to remain semi-open. Case counts likely will not trigger much action, but hospitalizations is the thing that would send us backwards. Just a general FYI. our case surge in Oregon, fortunately (is that the right word?) has been lower acuity cases and young people. As for the modelling outfit the state uses, that is forecasting doom and gloom that Beaver94 shared a link to... sure it is possible. I will also note they have provided several other previous projections that never happened either... I also feel that outfit was very late in recognizing the true disease burden in Oregon, it took them until June to finally admit there were way more cases in Oregon already than they were modelling. So, grain of salt on them I think. Problem with their modelling projections, is it isn't tuned enough to reflect our case surge being younger people not requiring hospitalizations, so it is fitting with bad estimators for hospitalization rate. In other words, they are applying a statewide observed hospitalization rate of around 14-15%, to a case surge made up primarily of people that are hospitalized more like 5-7% of the time. and a statewide observed death rate of ~3% to a population that has a 0.1% death rate. Just my thoughts on that one. And to be sure, I am not trying to be dismissive, COVID is serious. I think the thing that has plagued this outbreak is poor information and poor understanding on the behavior of the disease. Truly unlike many other diseases, this one is hard to understand with the huge variance in how it affects people, young and old. You mean that Beaverfever, before he was booted, may not have been far off the mark?
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Post by TheGlove on Jun 29, 2020 18:35:03 GMT -8
since last Thursday (i took off this weekend and didn't check any numbers in between) we are down roughly 40+ hospitalizations. You can compare that with the update that will come out around 2 or so today with last week. It is good to see that, and it is good for Oregon to remain semi-open. Case counts likely will not trigger much action, but hospitalizations is the thing that would send us backwards. Just a general FYI. our case surge in Oregon, fortunately (is that the right word?) has been lower acuity cases and young people. As for the modelling outfit the state uses, that is forecasting doom and gloom that Beaver94 shared a link to... sure it is possible. I will also note they have provided several other previous projections that never happened either... I also feel that outfit was very late in recognizing the true disease burden in Oregon, it took them until June to finally admit there were way more cases in Oregon already than they were modelling. So, grain of salt on them I think. Problem with their modelling projections, is it isn't tuned enough to reflect our case surge being younger people not requiring hospitalizations, so it is fitting with bad estimators for hospitalization rate. In other words, they are applying a statewide observed hospitalization rate of around 14-15%, to a case surge made up primarily of people that are hospitalized more like 5-7% of the time. and a statewide observed death rate of ~3% to a population that has a 0.1% death rate. Just my thoughts on that one. And to be sure, I am not trying to be dismissive, COVID is serious. I think the thing that has plagued this outbreak is poor information and poor understanding on the behavior of the disease. Truly unlike many other diseases, this one is hard to understand with the huge variance in how it affects people, young and old. You mean that Beaverfever, before he was booted, may not have been far off the mark? Whatchu talkn’ ‘bout Willis?
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Post by atownbeaver on Jun 30, 2020 11:40:00 GMT -8
it's a fair question. I don't need defender, not that I don't appreciate it. I was probably too condescending in my reply too. calling it "poop" data wasn't fair. I was probably in a bad mood when I posted that. I apologize. I would give you a link, but I am literally not allowed to. It is a proprietary tracking system that has no link to give. Yes, I am well aware that sounds suspiciously like "my uncle works for Nintendo..." however, there is reporting done out of the system, and it shows up every day on the OHA daily reports, found here: govstatus.egov.com/OR-OHA-COVID-19. you can use this link to see they are off on their testing projections. they are not that off on deaths though... sadly. Where I was unfair is not being more descriptive as to what I mean. My umbrage was pegging resource capacity at 210 ICU beds. That number is an estimation, and the site makes it clear. It is fine a site estimates this, as bed capacity is notoriously difficult to get. But the issue is I don't think it is really a great thing to track in the manner they are tracking it. Hell, we are having a very difficult time doing it at OHA. This is because in reality, a bed is a bed is a bed in a hospital. The state does not license bed types. it licenses beds. period. There is no separate license for an ICU bed. What makes an ICU bed different than a regular bed is the level of staffing it has and the equipment that supports it. These things can, and do, fluctuate. a hospital can scale ICU beds up and down to the maximum they have staff and equipment for. The site is trying to estimate it, but the estimate is probably off. We have an excess of 700 unused ventilators in the state. Importantly, something not reported publicly or on this site, is we have a large availability of negative flow rooms. rooms in which the pressure in the room is lower than the outside pressure, such that when you open the door the outside air sucks in. This is pretty critical for isolating contagious individuals. There is capacity to expand ICU beds as needed, above and beyond the 210 bed availability. I think it is important to track patients needing ICU care, but I do not believe it is an appropriate measure of resource capacity. It is too flexible. Total beds available, in general, is a better measure. Because once you run out of ANY beds, you are gonna start having problems. The site does do this, and I have no problems with that. If you read a hospital has 20 ICU beds and 19 are occupied, it isn't necessarily cause for alarm. That hospital can just convert some beds over with a semi-trivial amount of effort in most cases. However, a hospital that has 200 total beds and 195 are occupied, it might be time to panic. Hospital notoriously run both lean, and under report their actual capacity. This is for many reasons. 1. it isn't sustainable to run at max. 2. it isn't safe. 3. it costs a poop load to staff heavy. ICU care requires more nurses per patient, it isn't ideal to have a high percentage of your beds be ICU care. you have to staff at a higher ratio. Also I would remiss if I didn't give Johns Hopkins a shout out. I have worked with researchers from there on a couple projects and they are all great. They are also free. free help is fantastic, because contractors and consultants cost a s%#tload. So there you go, Johns Hopkins is out there saving Oregon taxpayer money! Wow! That’s a lot! Thank you for taking the time and effort to post that. I’m an engineer, so somebody puts data in front of me I interpret it the best I know. I realize you are doing exactly what you think is best. Thanks. interesting article, that is very likely related to everything I talked about above: www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/06/28/texas-hospital-says-100-of-icu-beds-full--then-removes-its-report/#5eea6c337a55I would say the removal of the data is probably not "political" as is being tossed about, but much more about what I was laying out. I don't work in Texas, I don't know their licensing laws, but I suspect it is similar here. The issue this hospital might of been facing is how to accurately report out on operating capacity, surge capacity, ICU level care and all that. Long story short, a "100% full ICU" may, or may not be, a problem. It just depends.
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Post by Werebeaver on Jul 8, 2020 12:14:29 GMT -8
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Post by mbabeav on Jul 8, 2020 13:08:09 GMT -8
I have yet to have to ask a customer here in Corvallis to put on a mask that we offer for free - there is a big reason why Benton County is fairing well compared to surrounding counties. But we travelled last week and in the eastern part of the state the mask use rate is around 20-40%. No telling what it is going to be like when the invulnerables return - Oregon State is going to have to offer at least some classes on campus or (if the Federal Gov mandate that all foreign students must return home if classes are only offered online) lose thousands of students. The "invulnerables" are not being looked forward to around here.
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Post by atownbeaver on Jul 8, 2020 14:46:07 GMT -8
I have yet to have to ask a customer here in Corvallis to put on a mask that we offer for free - there is a big reason why Benton County is fairing well compared to surrounding counties. But we travelled last week and in the eastern part of the state the mask use rate is around 20-40%. No telling what it is going to be like when the invulnerables return - Oregon State is going to have to offer at least some classes on campus or (if the Federal Gov mandate that all foreign students must return home if classes are only offered online) lose thousands of students. The "invulnerables" are not being looked forward to around here. Umatilla and Union county have the highest cases per 10,000 in state. Today (7/8) Umatilla county logged more new cases than any of the tri-county or Marion county, despite having a population of 80K compared to over 800K, 600K, 400K for the three PDX counties and over 350K for Marion. They only have one hospital in the county, and it is only 25 beds to begin with... it is a little sketchy out there right now. As for classes, my daughter is an incoming freshman this year. they are planning on having students on campus. She got a dorm assignment a week or so ago even and a scheduled move in date. The operating plan now is for any classes at 50 or fewer will be in person, any class over 50 will be online.
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Post by beaver55to7 on Jul 8, 2020 15:48:26 GMT -8
Honestly, that doesn't look that ominous. It is weird how the goal posts have changed. When the pandemic was declared the idea was to flatten the curve to make sure hospitals don't get over run and to give time for treatments and vaccines to be developed. Those curves all look real flat, no logarithmic increases to be seen. Now it seems the goal posts are set not at flattening the curve, but in zero deaths (we don't require zero deaths from any other preventable disease but this one...can you imagine if in the 90's we said we were going to prevent all HIV deaths by stopping people from having any sex for 2 years? Would have worked, I guess, maybe a little harder to get people to go along then wearing masks ;^). Anyway, death sucks, I get that, but millions have died in preventable car accidents, but we don't spend trillions on death proof cars and roadways (which is very possible, if you just spend trillions on them).
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Post by mbabeav on Jul 8, 2020 16:11:20 GMT -8
Honestly, that doesn't look that ominous. It is weird how the goal posts have changed. When the pandemic was declared the idea was to flatten the curve to make sure hospitals don't get over run and to give time for treatments and vaccines to be developed. Those curves all look real flat, no logarithmic increases to be seen. Now it seems the goal posts are set not at flattening the curve, but in zero deaths (we don't require zero deaths from any other preventable disease but this one...can you imagine if in the 90's we said we were going to prevent all HIV deaths by stopping people from having any sex for 2 years? Would have worked, I guess, maybe a little harder to get people to go along then wearing masks ;^). Anyway, death sucks, I get that, but millions have died in preventable car accidents, but we don't spend trillions on death proof cars and roadways (which is very possible, if you just spend trillions on them). No but we have spent huge amounts of money to make cars safer - between the opioid crisis and the deaths from Covid, the average life expectancy is going to drop in the US - a coordinated national response that avoided making simple things like masks political instead of medical would have made a huge difference. But as is attributed to Stalin, et al, "One death is a tragedy, 350,000 by the end of the year from Covid is a statistic"
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Post by beaver55to7 on Jul 8, 2020 16:37:26 GMT -8
Honestly, that doesn't look that ominous. It is weird how the goal posts have changed. When the pandemic was declared the idea was to flatten the curve to make sure hospitals don't get over run and to give time for treatments and vaccines to be developed. Those curves all look real flat, no logarithmic increases to be seen. Now it seems the goal posts are set not at flattening the curve, but in zero deaths (we don't require zero deaths from any other preventable disease but this one...can you imagine if in the 90's we said we were going to prevent all HIV deaths by stopping people from having any sex for 2 years? Would have worked, I guess, maybe a little harder to get people to go along then wearing masks ;^). Anyway, death sucks, I get that, but millions have died in preventable car accidents, but we don't spend trillions on death proof cars and roadways (which is very possible, if you just spend trillions on them). No but we have spent huge amounts of money to make cars safer - between the opioid crisis and the deaths from Covid, the average life expectancy is going to drop in the US - a coordinated national response that avoided making simple things like masks political instead of medical would have made a huge difference. But as is attributed to Stalin, et al, "One death is a tragedy, 350,000 by the end of the year from Covid is a statistic" How do you know it would have made a huge difference? We’ve spent 2 trillion on Covid, and will probably easily spend a trillion more. The United States is unique, uniquely large, uniquely free, uniquely diverse, there is no way to compare outcomes in other countries with the outcome in the United States, and no way to know what different policies might have done, and who would have had the balls to even try different national policies on a country the size of the U.S. Don’t forget that some politicians from the party out of power were complaining that banning flights from Asian countries was racist, and were on TV begging people to come to dinner in china town a week before the crap hit the fan. My guess is any politician would have struggled mightily to contain Covid in a unique country like the U.S. and this isn’t meant as a defense of Trump, didnt vote for him so no skin in that game. Just my honest assessment of the difficulty of the problem.
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Post by seastape on Jul 9, 2020 20:20:16 GMT -8
No but we have spent huge amounts of money to make cars safer - between the opioid crisis and the deaths from Covid, the average life expectancy is going to drop in the US - a coordinated national response that avoided making simple things like masks political instead of medical would have made a huge difference. But as is attributed to Stalin, et al, "One death is a tragedy, 350,000 by the end of the year from Covid is a statistic" How do you know it would have made a huge difference? We’ve spent 2 trillion on Covid, and will probably easily spend a trillion more. The United States is unique, uniquely large, uniquely free, uniquely diverse, there is no way to compare outcomes in other countries with the outcome in the United States, and no way to know what different policies might have done, and who would have had the balls to even try different national policies on a country the size of the U.S. Don’t forget that some politicians from the party out of power were complaining that banning flights from Asian countries was racist, and were on TV begging people to come to dinner in china town a week before the crap hit the fan. My guess is any politician would have struggled mightily to contain Covid in a unique country like the U.S. and this isn’t meant as a defense of Trump, didnt vote for him so no skin in that game. Just my honest assessment of the difficulty of the problem. We don't know that...but quite a few medical experts said it would have, so it seems likely.
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