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Post by alwaysorange on Mar 6, 2020 14:17:15 GMT -8
Used to be a time when it was an embarrassment to be selected for the NIT now its seen as an accomplishment to even be considered not selected just considered for the NIT That's how far the program has fallen.
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Post by Judge Smails on Mar 6, 2020 14:19:23 GMT -8
Used to be a time when it was an embarrassment to be selected for the NIT now its seen as an accomplishment to even be considered not selected just considered for the NIT That's how far the program has fallen. When was that time? We've been to the NIT once in 33 years.
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Post by alwaysorange on Mar 6, 2020 14:29:33 GMT -8
Used to be a time when it was an embarrassment to be selected for the NIT now its seen as an accomplishment to even be considered not selected just considered for the NIT That's how far the program has fallen. When was that time? We've been to the NIT once in 33 years. Actually twice in 33 years. The ncaa tourney was a regular invitation.
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Post by Judge Smails on Mar 6, 2020 14:35:35 GMT -8
When was that time? We've been to the NIT once in 33 years. Actually twice in 33 years. The ncaa tourney was a regular invitation. Fine, once in 32 years. 4 times in 34 years is a regular invitation to the NCAA tourney? To whom? Must be those folks that accept mediocrity. And we lost in the first game in all 4 of those appearances. Oh, the glory days, indeed!
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Post by nabeav on Mar 6, 2020 14:38:13 GMT -8
Used to be a time when it was an embarrassment to be selected for the NIT now its seen as an accomplishment to even be considered not selected just considered for the NIT That's how far the program has fallen. I'm not old enough to really remember when the Beavs were awesome in men's basketball, so help me out here: Were people actually embarrassed to play in the NIT in 1979? We had only played in one NCAA tournament in the last 12 seasons. Were people actually embarrassed to play in the NIT in 1983? Probably. We'd been to three straight NCAA tournaments and we lost as many games as we had in the previous three seasons combined. Were people actually embarrassed to play in the NIT in 1987? After first round NCAA losses in '84 and '85, we went 12-15 in '86 and missed the postseason entirely. the 1986-87 season saw us go 19-11 and 10-8 in conference with a freshman by the name of Gary Payton. Doubt anyone was embarrassed by that team. I know for a fact nobody was embarrassed that we made the NIT in 2005. We played in the NCAA Tournament in '80, '81, '82, '84, '85, '88, '89, and '90. That's 8 of our 17 appearances in history happening in an 11 year span. We had a really good run from 62-66. We had a really good run from 80-90. But my goodness people act like we had a half century of dominance.
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Post by beaver94 on Mar 6, 2020 14:40:27 GMT -8
Used to be a time when it was an embarrassment to be selected for the NIT now its seen as an accomplishment to even be considered not selected just considered for the NIT That's how far the program has fallen. Wasn't that long ago it was an accomplishment to get invited to the CBI.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 9, 2020 11:51:21 GMT -8
Used to be a time when it was an embarrassment to be selected for the NIT now its seen as an accomplishment to even be considered not selected just considered for the NIT That's how far the program has fallen. I'm not old enough to really remember when the Beavs were awesome in men's basketball, so help me out here: Were people actually embarrassed to play in the NIT in 1979? We had only played in one NCAA tournament in the last 12 seasons. Were people actually embarrassed to play in the NIT in 1983? Probably. We'd been to three straight NCAA tournaments and we lost as many games as we had in the previous three seasons combined. Were people actually embarrassed to play in the NIT in 1987? After first round NCAA losses in '84 and '85, we went 12-15 in '86 and missed the postseason entirely. the 1986-87 season saw us go 19-11 and 10-8 in conference with a freshman by the name of Gary Payton. Doubt anyone was embarrassed by that team. I know for a fact nobody was embarrassed that we made the NIT in 2005. We played in the NCAA Tournament in '80, '81, '82, '84, '85, '88, '89, and '90. That's 8 of our 17 appearances in history happening in an 11 year span. We had a really good run from 62-66. We had a really good run from 80-90. But my goodness people act like we had a half century of dominance. It is also interesting to go back and read and watch stuff from like 1984 and hear about how down the Pac-10 was and how great the PCAA was. It is also interesting that in 1984, a 20-win season was basically a guaranteed Tourney invite. With the Pac-12 Tournament coming up, I was curious as to the last true conference title for Oregon State. Oregon State won the regular season title in 1990, but the Pac-10 Tournament was held in Tempe, and Oregon State got paired with #8 Arizona State, so the Beavers were one-and-done in the Tournament with an eight-point loss. That was Oregon State's last regular season conference championship until 1984, but Washington won on tiebreakers. That is why the Huskies were allowed to play the first and second round in Pullman. Whereas, Oregon State was shipped across the country to Birmingham to go one-and-done against West Virginia, which was allowed to foul its way into the second round. The Beavers were saddled with a silly low six-seed that year, though, which did not help matters. Oregon State's last true conference championship was 1982, while UCLA was on probation. But the NCAA also found that the Beavers had cheated to win from 1979-82, so, if you want to get nit-picky, Oregon State's last true conference championship was in 1966, the Beavers' second year in the AAWU.
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Post by nabeav on Mar 9, 2020 13:01:58 GMT -8
Since I know people like to talk about outliers, let's remove the best and worst season for each coach.
Average conference finish: Anderson: 6th Payne: 8.25 McKay: 9th John: 8th Robinson: 8.75 Tinkle: 7.75
Tinkle and Robinson both had to compete against 11 other teams instead of 9, so they should receive extra credit for their place in the standings. This also removes bias for having a good conference record in a year say like Craig's 8-10 conference record in 2013-14 that was bolstered by four wins against terrible Wazzu and USC teams that finished a combined 21-42 and 5-31 in conference.
This year, we had the misfortune of only playing the 11th and 12th place teams once each, and on the road. Yes, we lost both games, so no guarantees, but had say we get those two games at home and they're likely wins given the way we played at home (for the most part) this season.
The fact that Tinkle's last three season conference finishes (10, 4, 8) are better than the previous 3 (7, 6, 12) on average points to me that the program is moving in the right direction even after the "outlier" years of NCAA tournament and the injury riddled season following it. It's a slow progression to be sure and could be linked to Tres' tenure more than Wayne's, but I'm definitely going to wait until after next year to render any sort of a judgement on the program.
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Post by beaverstever on Mar 10, 2020 9:18:36 GMT -8
I was analyzing my own sentiments towards Tres' legacy at OSU, which is definitely not on par with where his numbers put him. For instance, he ranks well below GP in my view, even though the numbers wouldn't put them in a different company outside of W/Ls, but of course GP went to 3 tourneys and one NIT, and TT will likely be 1 tourney and 1 NIT at best. I'm not sure about supporting cast comparisons, both were pretty good at times, pretty weak at other times in their 4 years.
But then I think about Klay Thompson at WSU. 3 years, ZERO NCAA tourneys and 1 NIT, all bottom-half Pac-12 finishes (one cellar year). That's 3 years of a future HOF NBA player, will go down as one of the greatest shooters in the game ever, NBA all-defensive player, and they still couldn't get to a single tournament with him there in 3 years (very different story for Steph at a mid-major in terms of postseason highlights). Klay went on to an NBA career on par with GP, yet WSU really has nothing to show for his time there other than Klay's personal accomplishments. It wasn't like the PAC-12 was burtal during his time either 4 teams made the tournament his junior year. His college career feels very similar to Tres' in many respects (albeit not expecting the pro career. upside for TT).
Bottom line, I think Tres will be remembered more fondly than he was appreciated during his time at OSU, and it's really just due to the dearth of fond post-season memories. But that's pretty sad really, imagine not enjoying Klay while he was at WSU... that was a pretty rare opportunity for those fans.
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Post by TheGlove on Mar 10, 2020 10:35:49 GMT -8
I was analyzing my own sentiments towards Tres' legacy at OSU, which is definitely not on par with where his numbers put him. For instance, he ranks well below GP in my view, even though the numbers wouldn't put them in a different company outside of W/Ls, but of course GP went to 3 tourneys and one NIT, and TT will likely be 1 tourney and 1 NIT at best. I'm not sure about supporting cast comparisons, both were pretty good at times, pretty weak at other times in their 4 years. But then I think about Klay Thompson at WSU. 3 years, ZERO NCAA tourneys and 1 NIT, all bottom-half Pac-12 finishes (one cellar year). That's 3 years of a future HOF NBA player, will go down as one of the greatest shooters in the game ever, NBA all-defensive player, and they still couldn't get to a single tournament with him there in 3 years (very different story for Steph at a mid-major in terms of postseason highlights). Klay went on to an NBA career on par with GP, yet WSU really has nothing to show for his time there other than Klay's personal accomplishments. It wasn't like the PAC-12 was burtal during his time either 4 teams made the tournament his junior year. His college career feels very similar to Tres' in many respects (albeit not expecting the pro career. upside for TT). Bottom line, I think Tres will be remembered more fondly than he was appreciated during his time at OSU, and it's really just due to the dearth of fond post-season memories. But that's pretty sad really, imagine not enjoying Klay while he was at OSU... that was a pretty rare opportunity for those fans. This is an interesting perspective, but for me, I like to keep college and pro careers separate when possible. The fact that Klay has had big NBA success doesn't change what he did in college. Same for Tres, although probably the reverse of Klay.
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Post by beaverstever on Mar 10, 2020 10:47:08 GMT -8
I was analyzing my own sentiments towards Tres' legacy at OSU, which is definitely not on par with where his numbers put him. For instance, he ranks well below GP in my view, even though the numbers wouldn't put them in a different company outside of W/Ls, but of course GP went to 3 tourneys and one NIT, and TT will likely be 1 tourney and 1 NIT at best. I'm not sure about supporting cast comparisons, both were pretty good at times, pretty weak at other times in their 4 years. But then I think about Klay Thompson at WSU. 3 years, ZERO NCAA tourneys and 1 NIT, all bottom-half Pac-12 finishes (one cellar year). That's 3 years of a future HOF NBA player, will go down as one of the greatest shooters in the game ever, NBA all-defensive player, and they still couldn't get to a single tournament with him there in 3 years (very different story for Steph at a mid-major in terms of postseason highlights). Klay went on to an NBA career on par with GP, yet WSU really has nothing to show for his time there other than Klay's personal accomplishments. It wasn't like the PAC-12 was burtal during his time either 4 teams made the tournament his junior year. His college career feels very similar to Tres' in many respects (albeit not expecting the pro career. upside for TT). Bottom line, I think Tres will be remembered more fondly than he was appreciated during his time at OSU, and it's really just due to the dearth of fond post-season memories. But that's pretty sad really, imagine not enjoying Klay while he was at OSU... that was a pretty rare opportunity for those fans. This is an interesting perspective, but for me, I like to keep college and pro careers separate when possible. The fact that Klay has had big NBA success doesn't change what he did in college. Same for Tres, although probably the reverse of Klay. Agreed .... yet Klay's jersey has been retired at WSU, one of only 2 in the rafters. From a career stats standpoint, Tres' number should be in the rafters at OSU, but I can't imagine it happening at this point (probably true for Klay when he graduated as well - I can't imagine they retire his jersey without his NBA success).
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Post by baseba1111 on Mar 10, 2020 10:59:44 GMT -8
The same feelings on many issues covered... -could care less about any NBA stuff. Some players fit a style of play better. For KT he's a better pro 2nd/3rd wheel than best player on mediocre team.
-even All League stuff can be deceiving. In some eras being all Pac8 or 10 was far more meaningful because of the surrounding talent level. Remember when those teams were mainly inhabited by 3rd/4th year Jr and Srs? West coast hoops was UCLA and OSU?
-Tres's legacy... TT will definitely be seen in a kinder light later in life. But, most players are. Accomplishments become numbers without context, memories become emboldened. For example, OSU wins were more my focus in the GP era. GP was obviously great, but he became legend partly because of what happened to OSU hoops afterward and his NBA legacy.
- Tres vs Wayne... anyone who is anti Wayne can't say that it doesn't effect their view of Tres in some way. It's virtually impossible to separate the two. But, for me personally I've never seen Tres as the athletically skilled player that I've favored in past OSU teams. But, that's not the "Wayne factor". And, almost all of those players I ranked "higher" came from an era of team ball. Less individuality, less individual ball dominance. Less NBA like. But, the Wayne vs Tres thing for me is also the father son dynamic that invariably takes away from the team/program. It's a nice little story, but it's not OSU basketball. Especially in the media over hype of their relationship, setting up boundaries, etc. Which I believe inevitably carries into the locker room, the team/program is no longer the focus. I'm not sure Tres would have been a better player playing elsewhere, hard to argue the stats. But, I'm fairly certain Wayne would have been a better coach, OSU a more improved program if Tres was just another recruit.
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Post by beaverstever on Mar 10, 2020 11:25:52 GMT -8
GP was already a legend for me though while at OSU. Watching him wag is finger directing traffic as a PG, totally disrupting the opposition offense, his bulldog attitude and doing things like going for 58 against USC were just unreal. That's a very high bar he set. That said, Tres' performance in our win of UO this season was pretty darn memorable - if this was a tourney team with that win being part of our high seeding portfolio, that performance would feel a lot more legendary.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 10, 2020 12:27:57 GMT -8
This may be looked at as kind of a dumb comment/question, but I kind of wonder if the position Tres played minimizes how some look at him. Tres is basically a 6'7" small forward who largely played a hybrid small/power forward here. I'm wondering if when people start thinking of "all time greats" they might tend to think of the great point guard, the great shooting 2, the dominant center or the big bruising power forward moreso than small forwards? Personally, when I think of all time greats in college or the NBA I tend to not think of the small forwards quite so much, I think of Havlicek (who was a hybrid small forward/shooting guard) and that's about it. I'm not saying he's one of our all time greats, but he's been a very good player for us since the day he got here and would readily fit in the top 10/12/15 discussion of OSU players in my memory (call it from the 70's on).
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Post by Judge Smails on Mar 10, 2020 12:41:27 GMT -8
This may be looked at as kind of a dumb comment/question, but I kind of wonder if the position Tres played minimizes how some look at him. Tres is basically a 6'7" small forward who largely played a hybrid small/power forward here. I'm wondering if when people start thinking of "all time greats" they might tend to think of the great point guard, the great shooting 2, the dominant center or the big bruising power forward moreso than small forwards? Personally, when I think of all time greats in college or the NBA I tend to not think of the small forwards quite so much, I think of Havlicek (who was a hybrid small forward/shooting guard) and that's about it. I'm not saying he's one of our all time greats, but he's been a very good player for us since the day he got here and would readily fit in the top 10/12/15 discussion of OSU players in my memory (call it from the 70's on). Lebron just laughed at your post on behalf of all small forwards.
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