|
Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 4, 2020 16:32:35 GMT -8
My comment about 5 stars is and was facetious. The problem is some on this board act as if 7-11 in league is acceptable. IT IS NOT. 7 - 11 is acceptable if it's in a down cycle or a large factor in it is bad luck / injuries. I think North Carolina's record is in that vicinity. But our problem is we have been building towards this year. We have three guys that have a chance of making an NBA roster. Now was the time to make hay. This year is as bad as year 3 when we won one conference game. I feel in the last four years, two of those were barely acceptable and two were dramatic underachieving years. I hate to tell you this.... While 7-11 isn't good, it's actually an "up cycle" in comparison to the two and a half decades prior to Tinkle's arrival. I think it's been topped only 3 times total by all other coaches since the middle of Anderson's tenure back in the early 90's Hopefully they make it there, not sure they will.
|
|
|
Post by baseba1111 on Mar 4, 2020 16:49:15 GMT -8
7 - 11 is acceptable if it's in a down cycle or a large factor in it is bad luck / injuries. I think North Carolina's record is in that vicinity. But our problem is we have been building towards this year. We have three guys that have a chance of making an NBA roster. Now was the time to make hay. This year is as bad as year 3 when we won one conference game. I feel in the last four years, two of those were barely acceptable and two were dramatic underachieving years. I hate to tell you this.... While 7-11 isn't good, it's actually an "up cycle" in comparison to the two and a half decades prior to Tinkle's arrival. I think it's been topped only 3 times total by all other coaches since the middle of Anderson's tenure back in the early 90's Hopefully they make it there, not sure they will. I hate to tell you this, but it is not a significant "up cycle" for the coach just before WT... 40 league wins (possible of 42) vs 39 (6.5 win per year). That's a half win a year IF we win both this week. Again why the history lesson. It's not even a defense of the man, it's an excuse.
|
|
|
Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 4, 2020 17:42:26 GMT -8
This IS directed at Baseba111 (and some others).
I actually agree with you on a lot of the weaknesses in Tinkle's program.
I pretty much have thought an offensive direction has been lacking since his first season, although it has improved a hair over the years. In our tournament year, in just about every possession, whoever had the ball with 7-8 seconds left on the possession clock threw up a shot with 2 seconds left for instance.
Recruiting hasn't been great, but mostly in the last 2 years. Retention has been poor. That may point at recruiting, then again kids transfer a lot these days compared to years past. Some kids have not panned out for one reason or another. Wilson, Kone and Li were injured or found to have medical issues after our offers I believe, I get doing the right thing and honoring commitments even if it's not necessarily the "best" for the team... just think if all of them had been healthy since their offers, we could be stacked on the inside. Oh well.
I do think there has been a bit more development in several players than you seem to.
I agree that younger players aren't being given enough playing time over the course of the season. In some seasons past I can understand it, but this season I think it's potentially hurt the team's development. It bugs me.
But... I look at where the team is now compared to where it's been in RELEVANT history (I really feel what happened 2-3 generations back doesn't define a program that has flailed for a couple of decades and is trying to recruit 16-18 year old kids) and I see a program that has made some strides forward. Just being in contention for a NIT tournament berth late in the season is, unfortunately, an improvement.
Tinkle isn't likely the guy to "take us to the promised land", but that's no reason to move along until the athletic department is SERIOUS about improving basketball. I do mean serious, it won't come cheap. I don't think this year is the time to push to move on.
I say fire a coach if it's obvious he's failing to achieve the "norm" for your program unless you are ready to invest way beyond what you are currently investing in the program. Tinkle has been performing beyond our well established norm.
|
|
|
Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 4, 2020 17:49:23 GMT -8
I hate to tell you this.... While 7-11 isn't good, it's actually an "up cycle" in comparison to the two and a half decades prior to Tinkle's arrival. I think it's been topped only 3 times total by all other coaches since the middle of Anderson's tenure back in the early 90's Hopefully they make it there, not sure they will. I hate to tell you this, but it is not a significant "up cycle" for the coach just before WT... 40 league wins (possible of 42) vs 39 (6.5 win per year). That's a half win a year IF we win both this week. Again why the history lesson. It's not even a defense of the man, it's an excuse. 6.5 a year? 8 9 7 10 Those are the number of league wins in 4 of the 5 full seasons Tinkle has had. You are relying HEAVILY on one outlier year to make your claim.
|
|
|
Post by baseba1111 on Mar 4, 2020 18:27:36 GMT -8
I hate to tell you this, but it is not a significant "up cycle" for the coach just before WT... 40 league wins (possible of 42) vs 39 (6.5 win per year). That's a half win a year IF we win both this week. Again why the history lesson. It's not even a defense of the man, it's an excuse. 6.5 a year? 8 9 7 10 Those are the number of league wins in 4 of the 5 full seasons Tinkle has had. You are relying HEAVILY on one outlier year to make your claim. It's his record... it counts... it's not an anomaly... it was his 3rd season... 2 FULL recruiting seasons to mitigate an injury (yes ST was gone for a short time) Good recruiting, NOT great, should be able to cover a bit for ONE key injury. Hell (3) ZR make up the points OSU missed from TT... I mean ZR! We're not talking high level talent to swap in and out. The 5-27 should never been as bad if WT had any recruiting chops at all and knew how to coach thru adversity. Crap happens as a HC man, you have to adapt and adjust. But, no recruiting and panic leads to a season like that. I mean JJ and Mouton squeaked out 6 wins in a season of soap opera proportion! And, they were s%#tE... that tells ya something cuz I'm think the league was tougher then too?! PS- do we just get to count the good years... cuz you forgot "5"... as in this year so far.
|
|
|
Post by Judge Smails on Mar 4, 2020 20:54:25 GMT -8
JJ and Mouton went 0-18 in conference! At least Tinks won one game in his s%#t season!
|
|
|
Post by seastape on Mar 4, 2020 22:53:20 GMT -8
I hate to tell you this, but it is not a significant "up cycle" for the coach just before WT... 40 league wins (possible of 42) vs 39 (6.5 win per year). That's a half win a year IF we win both this week. Again why the history lesson. It's not even a defense of the man, it's an excuse. 6.5 a year? 8 9 7 10 Those are the number of league wins in 4 of the 5 full seasons Tinkle has had. You are relying HEAVILY on one outlier year to make your claim. To be fair, we have had two outlier seasons: the tourney season and the horrible season. If you can't one, it's only fair to count the other. I can't just pretend that a 1-17 season didn't happen.
|
|
|
Post by treasurevalleybeav on Mar 4, 2020 23:26:01 GMT -8
The 1-17 debacle was mostly due to Steven and Tres being out. But doesn’t that just add to the paranoia that he can’t win unless coach’s kids are playing for him?
|
|
|
Post by baseba1111 on Mar 5, 2020 8:46:00 GMT -8
The 1-17 debacle was mostly due to Steven and Tres being out. But doesn’t that just add to the paranoia that he can’t win unless coach’s kids are playing for him? Only TT was out the last 24 games or so. ST missed 6 early before/around TT's injury. ST played in the last (?) 26.
|
|
|
Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 5, 2020 10:11:17 GMT -8
6.5 a year? 8 9 7 10 Those are the number of league wins in 4 of the 5 full seasons Tinkle has had. You are relying HEAVILY on one outlier year to make your claim. It's his record... it counts... it's not an anomaly... it was his 3rd season... 2 FULL recruiting seasons to mitigate an injury (yes ST was gone for a short time) Good recruiting, NOT great, should be able to cover a bit for ONE key injury. Hell (3) ZR make up the points OSU missed from TT... I mean ZR! We're not talking high level talent to swap in and out. The 5-27 should never been as bad if WT had any recruiting chops at all and knew how to coach thru adversity. Crap happens as a HC man, you have to adapt and adjust. But, no recruiting and panic leads to a season like that. I mean JJ and Mouton squeaked out 6 wins in a season of soap opera proportion! And, they were s%#tE... that tells ya something cuz I'm think the league was tougher then too?! PS- do we just get to count the good years... cuz you forgot "5"... as in this year so far. You have often said/implied 2 years is all it takes to make a decent team out of a team that has struggled. Now you've said good recruiting, not great, should have been adequate to cover an injury of your best player. OSU had ZERO holdovers from Robinson in year three (with the exception of the oft-injured N'Diaye) to play. There were ZERO upperclassmen playing. In essence Tinkle was given 2 recruiting classes to make a team out of nothing for year three. How many times in NCAA power 5 history has a coach with 2 true sophomores and a bunch of recruits that have never played for that school (and I'm including any combination of high school recruits and upperclass transfers you want) plaed even at a mediocre level in league play? My guess is not often, you seem to imply it is commonplace. I consider that year an outlier. If we finish with 5 Pac 12 wins this season, I will consider this a bad season and the seat should be hot, but still not one that should be a cause for firing. Two in a row of those, with only two years to buy out, seems like worth taking the risk on a change.
|
|
|
Post by baseba1111 on Mar 5, 2020 12:51:35 GMT -8
It's his record... it counts... it's not an anomaly... it was his 3rd season... 2 FULL recruiting seasons to mitigate an injury (yes ST was gone for a short time) Good recruiting, NOT great, should be able to cover a bit for ONE key injury. Hell (3) ZR make up the points OSU missed from TT... I mean ZR! We're not talking high level talent to swap in and out. The 5-27 should never been as bad if WT had any recruiting chops at all and knew how to coach thru adversity. Crap happens as a HC man, you have to adapt and adjust. But, no recruiting and panic leads to a season like that. I mean JJ and Mouton squeaked out 6 wins in a season of soap opera proportion! And, they were s%#tE... that tells ya something cuz I'm think the league was tougher then too?! PS- do we just get to count the good years... cuz you forgot "5"... as in this year so far. You have often said/implied 2 years is all it takes to make a decent team out of a team that has struggled. Now you've said good recruiting, not great, should have been adequate to cover an injury of your best player. OSU had ZERO holdovers from Robinson in year three (with the exception of the oft-injured N'Diaye) to play. There were ZERO upperclassmen playing. In essence Tinkle was given 2 recruiting classes to make a team out of nothing for year three. How many times in NCAA power 5 history has a coach with 2 true sophomores and a bunch of recruits that have never played for that school (and I'm including any combination of high school recruits and upperclass transfers you want) plaed even at a mediocre level in league play? My guess is not often, you seem to imply it is commonplace. I consider that year an outlier. If we finish with 5 Pac 12 wins this season, I will consider this a bad season and the seat should be hot, but still not one that should be a cause for firing. Two in a row of those, with only two years to buy out, seems like worth taking the risk on a change. HA.... so if we manage 6 or 7 wins all is ok? Wow... glad you do not handout contracts and extensions, Barnes is bad enough. You seem to make implications and generalizations that don't exist in what I write?! WT had two full recruiting classes to find effective players. CR players had zero to do with Year 3... only N'Diaye remained. Not asked for even mediocre(to me that is 7-11 to 9-9) in league play. But, 10-11 wins overall, 4-14 (you know CR's last record with all those so caller lame players of his) would have been a sign he knew how to handle adversity and that he could translate that to his players. But, in Year 3 his big recruiting push coming off an NCAA berth (other than sons): Jaquori (LEFT), Ronnie Stacy, Kendal Manuel, Christian Russell, Ben Kone (injured for 50%+ of the year)!! Quite the haul. I'll take the CR leftovers and their combined assistance in 36 Ws. And, of course you consider it an outlier, it serves your belief that WT is a good coach to do so. Others here find the GPII years to indeed be the outlier as they were the last years the team had ANY oncourt leadership, guts, and will to overcome adversity.
|
|
|
Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 5, 2020 13:44:41 GMT -8
You have often said/implied 2 years is all it takes to make a decent team out of a team that has struggled. Now you've said good recruiting, not great, should have been adequate to cover an injury of your best player. OSU had ZERO holdovers from Robinson in year three (with the exception of the oft-injured N'Diaye) to play. There were ZERO upperclassmen playing. In essence Tinkle was given 2 recruiting classes to make a team out of nothing for year three. How many times in NCAA power 5 history has a coach with 2 true sophomores and a bunch of recruits that have never played for that school (and I'm including any combination of high school recruits and upperclass transfers you want) plaed even at a mediocre level in league play? My guess is not often, you seem to imply it is commonplace. I consider that year an outlier. If we finish with 5 Pac 12 wins this season, I will consider this a bad season and the seat should be hot, but still not one that should be a cause for firing. Two in a row of those, with only two years to buy out, seems like worth taking the risk on a change. HA.... so if we manage 6 or 7 wins all is ok? Wow... glad you do not handout contracts and extensions, Barnes is bad enough. You seem to make implications and generalizations that don't exist in what I write?! WT had two full recruiting classes to find effective players. CR players had zero to do with Year 3... only N'Diaye remained. Not asked for even mediocre(to me that is 7-11 to 9-9) in league play. But, 10-11 wins overall, 4-14 (you know CR's last record with all those so caller lame players of his) would have been a sign he knew how to handle adversity and that he could translate that to his players. But, in Year 3 his big recruiting push coming off an NCAA berth (other than sons): Jaquori (LEFT), Ronnie Stacy, Kendal Manuel, Christian Russell, Ben Kone (injured for 50%+ of the year)!! Quite the haul. I'll take the CR leftovers and their combined assistance in 36 Ws. And, of course you consider it an outlier, it serves your belief that WT is a good coach to do so. Others here find the GPII years to indeed be the outlier as they were the last years the team had ANY oncourt leadership, guts, and will to overcome adversity. Thing is, I can't think of any other Division 1 programs that have had no returning healthy juniors or seniors on their team, ever. Maybe they exist? If they don't exist in large numbers.... OUTLIER. I haven't said 6 or 7 wins is OK, I've only said this is not the season to let him go, and I'll stick with that unless something outrageous occurs at season end.
|
|
|
Post by obf on Mar 5, 2020 14:31:43 GMT -8
This season has indeed been very disappointing, and if WT's contract was at a different state, maybe his seat would be much warmer, but alas it isn't. That being said, and assuming Wayne will most likely be around for at least the next TWO years, here is the thing *I* am interested to see.... What does a Wayne Tinkle team look like that DOES NOT have his son on it?!?!? I know that a lot of doom and gloomers think that will lead to lower lows than even 1-17, BUT think about it this way. WT got hired on the strength of his coaching career, most of it fairly successful and 100% of it SANS TRES (see what I did there ). SO! If he regresses back to his norm without his son, it is very possible that he will be regressing back to a more successful form of coach! Same goes for recruiting. We have all been in a situation where nepotism was apparent, and if you are like me you avoid those situations! It would not surprise me if Tres being on the team artificially decreased the recruiting pool we were pulling from. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that at least two of the recent transfers was because of the nepotism. Anyway, I know that it is Pollyanna and orange colored glasses or whatever, but since we are stuck with WT for what I think is at least the next two years my hope is that Tres moving on actually makes Wayne a better coach and recruiter.
|
|
|
Post by baseba1111 on Mar 5, 2020 20:54:25 GMT -8
This season has indeed been very disappointing, and if WT's contract was at a different state, maybe his seat would be much warmer, but alas it isn't. That being said, and assuming Wayne will most likely be around for at least the next TWO years, here is the thing *I* am interested to see.... What does a Wayne Tinkle team look like that DOES NOT have his son on it?!?!? I know that a lot of doom and gloomers think that will lead to lower lows than even 1-17, BUT think about it this way. WT got hired on the strength of his coaching career, most of it fairly successful and 100% of it SANS TRES (see what I did there ). SO! If he regresses back to his norm without his son, it is very possible that he will be regressing back to a more successful form of coach! Same goes for recruiting. We have all been in a situation where nepotism was apparent, and if you are like me you avoid those situations! It would not surprise me if Tres being on the team artificially decreased the recruiting pool we were pulling from. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that at least two of the recent transfers was because of the nepotism. Anyway, I know that it is Pollyanna and orange colored glasses or whatever, but since we are stuck with WT for what I think is at least the next two years my hope is that Tres moving on actually makes Wayne a better coach and recruiter. Well said. Bottom line many here and in Gill hope for a better coach... whether it be Wayne or someone new. If the excuses would stop, and those folks would just simply say this 4 year progression is NOT acceptable! We want/expect better in several areas it'd be a welcome respite. Of course 33% less posts.
|
|
|
Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 5, 2020 21:03:37 GMT -8
This season has indeed been very disappointing, and if WT's contract was at a different state, maybe his seat would be much warmer, but alas it isn't. That being said, and assuming Wayne will most likely be around for at least the next TWO years, here is the thing *I* am interested to see.... What does a Wayne Tinkle team look like that DOES NOT have his son on it?!?!? I know that a lot of doom and gloomers think that will lead to lower lows than even 1-17, BUT think about it this way. WT got hired on the strength of his coaching career, most of it fairly successful and 100% of it SANS TRES (see what I did there ). SO! If he regresses back to his norm without his son, it is very possible that he will be regressing back to a more successful form of coach! Same goes for recruiting. We have all been in a situation where nepotism was apparent, and if you are like me you avoid those situations! It would not surprise me if Tres being on the team artificially decreased the recruiting pool we were pulling from. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that at least two of the recent transfers was because of the nepotism. Anyway, I know that it is Pollyanna and orange colored glasses or whatever, but since we are stuck with WT for what I think is at least the next two years my hope is that Tres moving on actually makes Wayne a better coach and recruiter. Well said. Bottom line many here and in Gill hope for a better coach... whether it be Wayne or someone new. If the excuses would stop, and those folks would just simply say this 4 year progression is NOT acceptable! We want/expect better in several areas it'd be a welcome respite. Of course 33% less posts. 4 year progression... 1)Super crappy year. 2)Decent-ish year. Not horrible, not great. 3)Better year, not great, should have been in the NIT, several lesser teams got in. 4)Similar to most recent year but the entire league is stronger, not over yet... and looking more likely for the NIT.
|
|