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Post by alwaysorange on Feb 25, 2020 9:51:46 GMT -8
The contract will never be played out. As bad as recruiting is now it will never work if WT can't show a recruit he will be here for at least most of that recruits time. Unless a Miracle happens WT will be let go with multiple years on his contract. He hasn't earned future extensions.
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Post by nabeav on Feb 25, 2020 9:53:06 GMT -8
It is fairly likely that a coach that has their Pac12 basketball program finishing in the top 5 for 5 years straight , with a 2nd place or better finish in 1 of those years, would not be facing some kind of "hot seat discussion". Yes, the fans might come to expect THAT level of performance (e.g. top 5 in conference and NCAA tournament berths likely 4 out of 5 years), but I am not sure that any knowledgeable fan base would call for dismissal if the coach fell short in year 6. Sean Miller's Pac-12 regular season finishes: 4,1,4,2,1,1,3,1,1,8. They're currently one game back (5th place) with four games to go this year, and Zona fans definitely have him on the hot seat. Nobody's safe.
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Post by Judge Smails on Feb 25, 2020 9:58:26 GMT -8
It is fairly likely that a coach that has their Pac12 basketball program finishing in the top 5 for 5 years straight , with a 2nd place or better finish in 1 of those years, would not be facing some kind of "hot seat discussion". Yes, the fans might come to expect THAT level of performance (e.g. top 5 in conference and NCAA tournament berths likely 4 out of 5 years), but I am not sure that any knowledgeable fan base would call for dismissal if the coach fell short in year 6. Sean Miller's Pac-12 regular season finishes: 4,1,4,2,1,1,3,1,1,8. They're currently one game back (5th place) with four games to go this year, and Zona fans definitely have him on the hot seat. Nobody's safe. Miller should be on the hot seat for other reasons, but they seem to be ignoring those. UW is the mystery this year. Going from 1st last year to last this year with the talent they have is puzzling.
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Post by beaverinohio on Feb 25, 2020 10:27:17 GMT -8
Here's a case in point of Sean Miller at Arizona. Not perfect because of the wiretap stuff so there is some definite baggage, but this article lays out that people are upset with his performance: www.wildcat.arizona.edu/article/2020/01/s-sean-miller-great-coachThis is despite him winning 5 regular season championships, three tournament championships, three conference coach of the year awards and three trips to the elite 8 in 10+ seasons. In the 10 season preceding Miller, Arizona won or shared the regular season conference title three times, the conference tournament once (it wasn't played all 10 years), and they made 3 trips to the elite 8, one of those advancing to the national championship game. While the highs haven't been quite as high (no final four) and the lows have been a little lower (missed the NCAA tournament 3 times), on the whole he has kept Arizona in line with everything that has happened there since Lute Olson's national championship in 1997. Again, I'm all for firing Wayne if you can GUARANTEE me OSU basketball will do better with the next guy (or girl...would you take Becky Hammon as OSU MBB HC?), I'm fine letting his contract play out. Fully agree that an extension shouldn't have been offered last year, but again OSU can either offer more money or more years, and we have more years than money around here. Let the contract play out and then make a decision. I just don't understand the point you're trying to make. Yes, successful programs have high expectations and if coaches don't meet them they're on the hot seat. As some likes to point out the same thing happened to Ralph Miller in his final years. Are these expectations unrealistic? Certainly within the context of the current OSU basketball program and yes, likely within even Arizona's program. But it is those expectations that according to a 2018 article made Miller the 6th highest paid coach in the country (just north of $4M) and highest paid in Pac 12. But what does all this have to do with OSU and WT. Are you saying that Beaver fans expectations are too high and that they should be happy with a mid-pack team? You say just let the contract play out. So potentially two more mediocre or worse seasons, and a the cupboard likely pretty bare given that everyone will be using the lame duck negative recruitment tactic along with the fact that any decent players will likely transfer when he is finally let go. Anyone who thinks it will be hard to bring in a coach that is better than WT now, imagine what it will be like then. No players, bar lowered back down to pre-WT days, and potential coaches knowing the administration has no problem running coaches through a lame duck season. I guess the silver lining is OSU will likely be able to get away with offering a smaller contract to the types of coaches who would be interested.
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Post by osubeaver2018 on Feb 25, 2020 10:34:12 GMT -8
Sean Miller's Pac-12 regular season finishes: 4,1,4,2,1,1,3,1,1,8. They're currently one game back (5th place) with four games to go this year, and Zona fans definitely have him on the hot seat. Nobody's safe. Miller should be on the hot seat for other reasons, but they seem to be ignoring those. UW is the mystery this year. Going from 1st last year to last this year with the talent they have is puzzling. Yet we got blown out by them so where does that put us?
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Post by beaverinohio on Feb 25, 2020 10:47:02 GMT -8
Sean Miller's Pac-12 regular season finishes: 4,1,4,2,1,1,3,1,1,8. They're currently one game back (5th place) with four games to go this year, and Zona fans definitely have him on the hot seat. Nobody's safe. Miller should be on the hot seat for other reasons, but they seem to be ignoring those. UW is the mystery this year. Going from 1st last year to last this year with the talent they have is puzzling. Yeah, I'm a bit surprised, but they did lose a lot after last season -- top 4 scorers and included in there was their heart and soul Thybulle. Then their starting PG got hurt in early Jan. I believe they're 2-11 since he got hurt. Unfortunately, one of those two wins was against the Beavs. Their rotation consists of 4 FR, 1 Soph, 2 JR and 1 SR -- and the SR averages less than 10 mpg. They'll be much better next year. How much so will depend on if any of the freshmen leave early.
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Post by nabeav on Feb 25, 2020 10:53:04 GMT -8
Yes, that’s exactly the point I’m trying to make. You don’t have to be happy with where we are at, but there’s thirty years of results that say where we are now is pretty close to our most successful outcomes, and to me you don’t firea coach for that. Say I’m living in the past if you want. I say you’re dreaming if you think the next coach is going to magically waltz in and start producing top 3 finishes in the conference. Could it happen? Yes. Is it certain? No. But we can keep firing guys and spending more and more money chasing that dragon if we want.
My preference is that the athletic department stop handing out extensions early in contracts. You have one year left, let’s talk. Until then, your contract is your contract.
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Post by baseba1111 on Feb 25, 2020 10:59:48 GMT -8
baseba1111 - it amazes me how you will jump on anyone who responds to your posts if they assume anything from your posts that isn’t explicitly written and then do the same thing to other people’s posts. My point was that if Wayne finished second in the conference, he would be expected to win it the next year, same as any coach. If he didn’t, people would start to complain. Eventually, enough second places would result in people starting to say he couldn’t win the big games and OSU needed someone else to take them to the next level. Unless any coach wins his or her conference regularly, fans will eventually want a change in the major sports. Alabama fans will want Saban gone if he misses SEC championship game another year or two. Nature of the beast. It's more amazing that you think your generalizations are correct and someone won't debate you on their utter, over simplistic nonsense. Not every fan base is exactly the same. I'd bet you any amount you care to afford to lose that because of his success another miss or two by Saban will not bring the Bama fan base crashing down on him. A historical perspective matters. Now, if you'd like to move your target once again, and say there would be "some fans", well, that's "the nature of the beast". Hell, there are some fans in Bama country who don't like Nick for whatever reason who stay quiet, waiting for him to fail. But, it certainly isn't/won't be the majority. "Fans" will want a change. What I love about that generalization is exactly how do you mean that? How do you measure it? I mean fans here on this board wanted MR gone a couple years before he decided to leave? But, I'll flat out state it wasn't the majority of OSU fans, it was a loud minority. And, I can certainly tell you it wasn't the biggest fan donors. So what is it you consider the "fans"? Maybe that's the issue. You see any squawk about a coach the will of all fans... the fan base in general? As for WT, if he ever finished 2nd in the Pac12 fans will be so ecstatic and in shock they'll probably want him as Governor! And, again... anything you want to wager that a 2nd place finish next year would have fans expecting a Pac12 championship the next? I mean you paint fans as some brain-dead groupies who don't follow sports, and think 1st is better than 2nd, so it has to come next or the coach is terrible! You see some actually know recruiting, those teams with returning players, and the effects of injuries and attrition. So yeah, keep painting these meaningless generalizations, and with them WT and Nick Saban in the same mention. Cuz, you know their situations are so equal. You might also look into all the coaches who don't win titles and longevity, cuz you know there are only 32 D1 conferences and 354 D1 schools. That's a lot of coaches that don't get fired every year for not winning championships. I'm guessing guys like Boeheim should be worried with his up and down success at 'Cuse recently? Or the 60 or so that have been D1 HC since 2010 with widely varying results... very few consistently at the top of their conferences. Fans are quite mercurial, those that inhabit message boards leading the pack. But, fans bases in their entirety as much as you want to portray.
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Post by baseba1111 on Feb 25, 2020 11:02:05 GMT -8
It is fairly likely that a coach that has their Pac12 basketball program finishing in the top 5 for 5 years straight , with a 2nd place or better finish in 1 of those years, would not be facing some kind of "hot seat discussion". Yes, the fans might come to expect THAT level of performance (e.g. top 5 in conference and NCAA tournament berths likely 4 out of 5 years), but I am not sure that any knowledgeable fan base would call for dismissal if the coach fell short in year 6. Sean Miller's Pac-12 regular season finishes: 4,1,4,2,1,1,3,1,1,8. They're currently one game back (5th place) with four games to go this year, and Zona fans definitely have him on the hot seat. Nobody's safe. Wow... so you think last year and this is the reason some fans are angered? That it is just Ws and Ls... Really? You might want to stay abreast of athletic news/scandals. What bite does that article have without the current underlying scandal? Is that article even written. But, the bigger picture is that Zona has been an NCAA regular winning big games since the 80's. And, if you READ it is the author asking if it is enough for the fans... and he mentions a few tweets. Again who is stirring the controversy... the fan base as a whole or the author? It is a hack job to incite worthy of crapzano. But, of course the McKale Center is emptying... I mean a lowly 13,939 for each of Washington schools, 14,162 for Pac12 games... 47 less/game than last year... 400 less/game than their all time high. So, guess not. Arizona will lead the league in attendance again. But, hey if you search the internet long enough you'll find info to back your viewpoint... like ESPN listing him as the 11th best coach in the country. Or even with the scandal looming he pulled in a Top recruiting class. Or the Zona Zealots site where not only players love their former coach so do "fans". And... if the "fans" want him fired I know a school that'll help him pick up the pieces? Except there will be about 20+ others waiting too!
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Post by TheGlove on Feb 25, 2020 11:28:43 GMT -8
Miller should be on the hot seat for other reasons, but they seem to be ignoring those. UW is the mystery this year. Going from 1st last year to last this year with the talent they have is puzzling. Yet we got blown out by them so where does that put us? We split with UA this year... so far.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Feb 25, 2020 11:29:28 GMT -8
Yes, that’s exactly the point I’m trying to make. You don’t have to be happy with where we are at, but there’s thirty years of results that say where we are now is pretty close to our most successful outcomes, and to me you don’t firea coach for that. Say I’m living in the past if you want. I say you’re dreaming if you think the next coach is going to magically waltz in and start producing top 3 finishes in the conference. Could it happen? Yes. Is it certain? No. But we can keep firing guys and spending more and more money chasing that dragon if we want. My preference is that the athletic department stop handing out extensions early in contracts. You have one year left, let’s talk. Until then, your contract is your contract. I’m with you on everything but the extensions, unless every school eliminates extensions. If OSU goes to a no extensions policy while others don’t, it sends a bad signal to both potential recruits and potential coaches, we’d basically be signing off on never being able to compete. Unfortunately it is the way of doing business these days.
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Post by nabeav on Feb 25, 2020 11:35:14 GMT -8
Sean Miller's Pac-12 regular season finishes: 4,1,4,2,1,1,3,1,1,8. They're currently one game back (5th place) with four games to go this year, and Zona fans definitely have him on the hot seat. Nobody's safe. Wow... so you think last year and this is the reason some fans are angered? That it is Ws and Ls... Really? You might want to stay abreast of athletic news/scandals. Again, I'll post this article, which mentions nothing about the scandal: www.wildcat.arizona.edu/article/2020/01/s-sean-miller-great-coachHere's another one: zonazealots.com/2020/01/26/arizona-basketball-wildcat-fans-confident-miller-anymore/
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Post by baseba1111 on Feb 25, 2020 11:36:01 GMT -8
Yes, that’s exactly the point I’m trying to make. You don’t have to be happy with where we are at, but there’s thirty years of results that say where we are now is pretty close to our most successful outcomes, and to me you don’t firea coach for that. Say I’m living in the past if you want. I say you’re dreaming if you think the next coach is going to magically waltz in and start producing top 3 finishes in the conference. Could it happen? Yes. Is it certain? No. But we can keep firing guys and spending more and more money chasing that dragon if we want. My preference is that the athletic department stop handing out extensions early in contracts. You have one year left, let’s talk. Until then, your contract is your contract. I’m with you on everything but the extensions, unless every school eliminates extensions. If OSU goes to a no extensions policy while others don’t, it sends a bad signal to both potential recruits and potential coaches, we’d basically be signing off on never being able to compete. Unfortunately it is the way of doing business these days. First... you don't have to go to the extreme of no extensions. Extensions that are deserved... that will actually matter in recruiting. But, when the recruiting history has been minimal there is no real effect and of course is a great ploy by an agent to use. Second... extensions are not offered to entice future coaches. When the time comes the extension practices are discussed and can be negotiated part of the contract. Reach certain milestones and we'll sit down and talk. Don't and there is no extension. Third... in no way can anyone justify the latest extension given to WT.
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Post by nabeav on Feb 25, 2020 11:40:09 GMT -8
Yes, that’s exactly the point I’m trying to make. You don’t have to be happy with where we are at, but there’s thirty years of results that say where we are now is pretty close to our most successful outcomes, and to me you don’t firea coach for that. Say I’m living in the past if you want. I say you’re dreaming if you think the next coach is going to magically waltz in and start producing top 3 finishes in the conference. Could it happen? Yes. Is it certain? No. But we can keep firing guys and spending more and more money chasing that dragon if we want. My preference is that the athletic department stop handing out extensions early in contracts. You have one year left, let’s talk. Until then, your contract is your contract. I’m with you on everything but the extensions, unless every school eliminates extensions. If OSU goes to a no extensions policy while others don’t, it sends a bad signal to both potential recruits and potential coaches, we’d basically be signing off on never being able to compete. Unfortunately it is the way of doing business these days. I get why we extend guys, I just don't like it. Again, 30 years of results say it either doesn't matter who we hire as a head coach, or we are unable to recruit the right coach to Oregon State. So why are we extending guys and giving them raises?
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Post by beaverinohio on Feb 25, 2020 11:42:38 GMT -8
Yes, that’s exactly the point I’m trying to make. You don’t have to be happy with where we are at, but there’s thirty years of results that say where we are now is pretty close to our most successful outcomes, and to me you don’t firea coach for that. Say I’m living in the past if you want. I say you’re dreaming if you think the next coach is going to magically waltz in and start producing top 3 finishes in the conference. Could it happen? Yes. Is it certain? No. But we can keep firing guys and spending more and more money chasing that dragon if we want. My preference is that the athletic department stop handing out extensions early in contracts. You have one year left, let’s talk. Until then, your contract is your contract. I've always said WT will be here next year and I agree he deserves that. But if the team continues to backslide next year, it is time for him to go. Now can the Beavers afford to eat two years of his contract? As much as it pains me to say it -- maybe not. So spend the 2021-22 doing your due diligence and putting together a list of potential replacements so you don't have to pay a search firm. If more of the same in 2021-22, then have to bite the bullet and cut WT loose. And is that new coach guaranteed to start producing top 3 finishes? No, but then again one top 3 finish and no 10 and 12th place finishes would be moving the bar up. I just believe that there are good coaches out there that can make the Beavers better and would take the job. Those coaches might not be "brand name" coaches, but they're out there. Now beat the Ducks Thursday Beavs so we have something positive to talk about.
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