|
Post by nabeav on Feb 24, 2020 19:48:12 GMT -8
No coach can survive unless they’re winning the conference on a regular basis, and even then fans will start grumbling if they top out there and can’t win national championships. There’s always some coach out there people think that can get the team over the top.
Look at the grumbling on the women’s board about Rueck’s recruiting lately and the general frustration that we aren’t a top ten team right now.
|
|
|
Post by beaverinohio on Feb 24, 2020 19:54:14 GMT -8
I don't think Ralph would have lasted past 75-76 in today's climate - 1970–71 Oregon State 12–14 4–10 6th 1971–72 Oregon State 18–10 9–5 3rd 1972–73 Oregon State 15–11 6–8 5th 1973–74 Oregon State 13–13 6–8 5th 1974–75 Oregon State 19–12 10–4 2nd NCAA Division I Second Round 1975–76 Oregon State 18–9* 10–4 2nd (15 wins were forfeited and official record for that season is 3-24) It wasn't until this span that Ralph kicked it into gear - but several of those years had games forfeited due to violations 1978–79 Oregon State 18–10 11–7 3rd NIT First Round 1979–80 Oregon State 26–4** 16–2 1st NCAA Division I Second Round 1980–81 Oregon State 26–2** 17–1 1st NCAA Division I Second Round 1981–82 Oregon State 25–5*** 16–2 1st NCAA Division I Elite Eight 1982–83 Oregon State 20–11 12–6 3rd NIT Quarterfinal 1983–84 Oregon State 22–7 15–3 1st NCAA Division I First Round 1984–85 Oregon State 22–9 12–6 2nd NCAA Division I First Round 1985–86 Oregon State 12–15 8–10 5th 1986–87 Oregon State 19–11 10–8 3rd NIT Second Round 1987–88 Oregon State 20–11 12–6 2nd NCAA Division I First Round 1988–89 Oregon State 22–8 13–5 3rd NCAA Division I First Round WT has done better than anyone at OSU in last 30 years. Now we’re talking about something 45 to 50 years ago. This living in the past to justify the underwhelming present is tiresome. But not sure why you think in present day Ralph would have been fired a year after NCAA appearance and back to back 2nd place finishes in conference. Certainly not because of the vacated wins given the circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by baseba1111 on Feb 24, 2020 22:24:07 GMT -8
No coach can survive unless they’re winning the conference on a regular basis, and even then fans will start grumbling if they top out there and can’t win national championships. There’s always some coach out there people think that can get the team over the top. Look at the grumbling on the women’s board about Rueck’s recruiting lately and the general frustration that we aren’t a top ten team right now. "Grumbling"/discussing doesn't equal firing! And, maybe if the program is a regular conference champ or contender your statement becomes reasonable. But, no one on this board has those expectations for Wayne. As for Scott no one is close to taking firing! Yeah... the WT issues are all about 2nd place in conference and national titles! Wow... post this when he gets us to a couple 2nd place finishes. Wait... how about in 12 years of averaging 10-8 and he's back to .500 in Pac12 play! Nice analogy.
|
|
|
Post by nabeav on Feb 25, 2020 6:25:24 GMT -8
baseba1111 - it amazes me how you will jump on anyone who responds to your posts if they assume anything from your posts that isn’t explicitly written and then do the same thing to other people’s posts. My point was that if Wayne finished second in the conference, he would be expected to win it the next year, same as any coach. If he didn’t, people would start to complain. Eventually, enough second places would result in people starting to say he couldn’t win the big games and OSU needed someone else to take them to the next level. Unless any coach wins his or her conference regularly, fans will eventually want a change in the major sports. Alabama fans will want Saban gone if he misses SEC championship game another year or two. Nature of the beast.
|
|
|
Post by nabeav on Feb 25, 2020 7:03:16 GMT -8
More simply stated. Whatever level a coach is winning at consistently will not be satisfactory for a fan base for long, unless there are conference championships on a semi regular basis.
|
|
|
Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Feb 25, 2020 8:07:08 GMT -8
If we had a coach that won the league every year but never won the playoffs, there’d be complaints, it’s inevitable that somebody (not pointing fingers at anyone) oui there would suggest the solution would be a new coach.
|
|
|
Post by alwaysorange on Feb 25, 2020 8:17:11 GMT -8
baseba1111 - it amazes me how you will jump on anyone who responds to your posts if they assume anything from your posts that isn’t explicitly written and then do the same thing to other people’s posts. My point was that if Wayne finished second in the conference, he would be expected to win it the next year, same as any coach. If he didn’t, people would start to complain. Eventually, enough second places would result in people starting to say he couldn’t win the big games and OSU needed someone else to take them to the next level. Unless any coach wins his or her conference regularly, fans will eventually want a change in the major sports. Alabama fans will want Saban gone if he misses SEC championship game another year or two. Nature of the beast. IF WT finished second... That's a good one..one can always hope.
|
|
|
Post by beaverinohio on Feb 25, 2020 8:19:29 GMT -8
baseba1111 - it amazes me how you will jump on anyone who responds to your posts if they assume anything from your posts that isn’t explicitly written and then do the same thing to other people’s posts. My point was that if Wayne finished second in the conference, he would be expected to win it the next year, same as any coach. If he didn’t, people would start to complain. Eventually, enough second places would result in people starting to say he couldn’t win the big games and OSU needed someone else to take them to the next level. Unless any coach wins his or her conference regularly, fans will eventually want a change in the major sports. Alabama fans will want Saban gone if he misses SEC championship game another year or two. Nature of the beast. I get your point, but WT doesn't have the Beavs program anywhere near that point -- and many believe he can't get the program there. There is quite a bit of difference between having "enough second places" and finishing 7th, 6th, 12th, 10th, tied for 4th and currently being tied for 10th. Get a coach in here that can get even one second place finish and then we can worry about being unsatisfied with no conference championships. Unless you're saying why bother having a program that can on a semi-regular basis can contend for a conference championship because fans won't be happy with that. There is nothing wrong with having expectations. The problem is when your expectations are so low that mediocrity is acceptable. People keep saying, well the program is better than its been in the last 30 years. Yes, and for many of those prior years the Beavs were terrible making the bar remarkably low "for success." Congrats to WT for moving the bar, but I've seen nothing that leads me to believe he can continue to move the bar in a positive way. I understand that since he has moved the bar he deserves another year, and I don't have a problem with that. But based upon how the rest of this season and next year go, if the program has stagnated than I believe it is time to move on. It is time to stop looking backwards 30 years and to start looking forward.
|
|
|
Post by alwaysorange on Feb 25, 2020 8:26:39 GMT -8
What is sad is that the best the beavs have done under WT is 4th and the league was so weak that that finish couldn't even get them in the NIT.
|
|
|
Post by shelby on Feb 25, 2020 8:52:44 GMT -8
I agree on the ‘mediocrity’ issues- it should apply to all sports, however, even more to football and basketball - the two key revenue sports. Money drives everything, starting with decisions related to strategic planning for each sport to increase fan participation, donations. Merchandise sales , recruiting, staffing, facilities and all areas where you have to keep up with the other programs. We, of course, cannot compete with sugar daddy u. However, we need to optimize and capitalize on ALL areas for continuous improvement or you just continue a slide backwards and a hopeless fight to just maintain relevance. So, the current metrics are not good, and are not trending upwards. Going backwards in the Conference this year, our attendance is down, and we will not be seeing any post season revenue opportunities. Plus, next year, we lose TT, KK and probably a couple of others will transfer. That means , starting like it is year one, all over again. But, give WT the message, and he either pulls off an unexpected miracle, or we have his final season of mediocrity to ‘enjoy’!
|
|
|
Post by green85 on Feb 25, 2020 9:04:00 GMT -8
baseba1111 - it amazes me how you will jump on anyone who responds to your posts if they assume anything from your posts that isn’t explicitly written and then do the same thing to other people’s posts. My point was that if Wayne finished second in the conference, he would be expected to win it the next year, same as any coach. If he didn’t, people would start to complain. Eventually, enough second places would result in people starting to say he couldn’t win the big games and OSU needed someone else to take them to the next level. Unless any coach wins his or her conference regularly, fans will eventually want a change in the major sports. Alabama fans will want Saban gone if he misses SEC championship game another year or two. Nature of the beast. It is fairly likely that a coach that has their Pac12 basketball program finishing in the top 5 for 5 years straight , with a 2nd place or better finish in 1 of those years, would not be facing some kind of "hot seat discussion". Yes, the fans might come to expect THAT level of performance (e.g. top 5 in conference and NCAA tournament berths likely 4 out of 5 years), but I am not sure that any knowledgeable fan base would call for dismissal if the coach fell short in year 6. Basketball is a tough collegiate sport to build a sustained program. And even a couple of injuries in a particular year can derail a run to the conference title. That said, you can also have knowledgeable fans that observe how the team is coached and predict that the coach will continue a downward trend if something does not change. Oregon fans observed issues with Ernie Kent's last few teams that clearly indicated that Coach Kent wasn't going to change the trend. Kent took Oregon basketball to some pretty lofty places, but that could not counter balance the trend he set in the last years at Oregon. My point is that sometimes a fan has to step back to set expectations and recognize the value of a coach building a program. Yes, every fan wants to see their team excel and improve every year. Yes, every fan wants to see their team compete for the conference title and post-season. But there are many good reasons to allow time for a coach to BUILD a program to reach those heights rather than simply set a target and say, no matter who the coach is they have to reach level x in 5 years or they should be fired.
|
|
|
Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Feb 25, 2020 9:32:07 GMT -8
I agree on the ‘mediocrity’ issues- it should apply to all sports, however, even more to football and basketball - the two key revenue sports. Money drives everything, starting with decisions related to strategic planning for each sport to increase fan participation, donations. Merchandise sales , recruiting, staffing, facilities and all areas where you have to keep up with the other programs. We, of course, cannot compete with sugar daddy u. However, we need to optimize and capitalize on ALL areas for continuous improvement or you just continue a slide backwards and a hopeless fight to just maintain relevance. So, the current metrics are not good, and are not trending upwards. Going backwards in the Conference this year, our attendance is down, and we will not be seeing any post season revenue opportunities. Plus, next year, we lose TT, KK and probably a couple of others will transfer. That means , starting like it is year one, all over again. But, give WT the message, and he either pulls off an unexpected miracle, or we have his final season of mediocrity to ‘enjoy’! The trick here is "football and basketball". There's plenty of room for improvement for both, but not necessarily plenty of money for both. As pointed out earlier by someone, it looks like OSU is committed to going all in on football this next couple years. Right now basketball really isn't in the horrible state some make it out to be. This year hasn't played out yet, but the team has finished 7th or better three of the last 5 years, essentially middle of the pack more often than not. Football, the main revenue driver of sports at the university has floundered and needs the focus. It appears that's where the school is focusing right now and I don't blame them. A rising tide lifts all boats. Get it going then focus on basketball next. At that time address what issues are keeping the Beavs out of the top level of the conference. My guess it's not just coaching. If the program tanks, make a coaching change, but for now we have much bigger fish to fry. If everything we need for success is in place and Tinkle is still producing mediocre results, then it's time to find someone else.
|
|
|
Post by alwaysorange on Feb 25, 2020 9:34:33 GMT -8
WT is now finishing his 6th year. The beavs are currently 10th in the league. TENTH!!! I don't like the trend. Nobody should be satisfied with this year or any of the previous five.
|
|
|
Post by spudbeaver on Feb 25, 2020 9:40:23 GMT -8
baseba1111 - it amazes me how you will jump on anyone who responds to your posts if they assume anything from your posts that isn’t explicitly written and then do the same thing to other people’s posts. My point was that if Wayne finished second in the conference, he would be expected to win it the next year, same as any coach. If he didn’t, people would start to complain. Eventually, enough second places would result in people starting to say he couldn’t win the big games and OSU needed someone else to take them to the next level. Unless any coach wins his or her conference regularly, fans will eventually want a change in the major sports. Alabama fans will want Saban gone if he misses SEC championship game another year or two. Nature of the beast. I don't think this is true for Oregon State. If, and that's a big if, Coach Tinkle had a team finish second in the conference, but it was a talented, Senior laden team, I don't think most real fans would expect him to win it the next year. The conversation would however most likely shift to why was the recruiting so average that you didn't bring in players to maintain or better the success that you had for one year. If Oregon St finished 2nd in conference every single year? It would get frustrating at the end of the season, but it sure does sound enjoyable to me. Bama football on the other hand? Yeah.
|
|
|
Post by nabeav on Feb 25, 2020 9:44:29 GMT -8
Here's a case in point of Sean Miller at Arizona. Not perfect because of the wiretap stuff so there is some definite baggage, but this article lays out that people are upset with his performance: www.wildcat.arizona.edu/article/2020/01/s-sean-miller-great-coachThis is despite him winning 5 regular season championships, three tournament championships, three conference coach of the year awards and three trips to the elite 8 in 10+ seasons. In the 10 season preceding Miller, Arizona won or shared the regular season conference title three times, the conference tournament once (it wasn't played all 10 years), and they made 3 trips to the elite 8, one of those advancing to the national championship game. While the highs haven't been quite as high (no final four) and the lows have been a little lower (missed the NCAA tournament 3 times), on the whole he has kept Arizona in line with everything that has happened there since Lute Olson's national championship in 1997. Again, I'm all for firing Wayne if you can GUARANTEE me OSU basketball will do better with the next guy (or girl...would you take Becky Hammon as OSU MBB HC?), I'm fine letting his contract play out. Fully agree that an extension shouldn't have been offered last year, but again OSU can either offer more money or more years, and we have more years than money around here. Let the contract play out and then make a decision.
|
|