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Post by seastape on Jan 27, 2019 16:28:47 GMT -8
. We aren't a school that can bring in great coach, or the talent that UW brings in. Uhhh baseball, womens basketball and several football recruits would like to tell you how off that statement is. Overall players follow coaches. How'd Miller ever get Gary Payton to sucky Corvallis. Or was GP a scrub.I'll never understand the loser woe is us mentality some fans have. Just top answer that question: Payton was headed to play at St John's back when it was a toss-up between the ACC and the Big East as to which was the best basketball conference in the land. At the 11th hour, Lou Carnesecca, in what he called one of the biggest mistakes of his career, pulled the scholarship offer to Payton and Payton came to OSU. If Carnesecca had kept the schollie open, Payton would have been just another guy we didn't quite get...
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Jan 27, 2019 16:30:02 GMT -8
Unsolicited fact check:
Conference record through the 79 games played to date for Coach Tinkle, 29-50
Conference record through the first 79 games for Coach Robinson, 28-51
But, remember to most the CR "leftovers" contributed little... and one season didn't count. So, to some that's a figment of naysayers. No one has ever said the 5-27 season didn't count. What was said was (and is correct), when compared to the rest of his career - a very large sample size - that it is not an accurate indicator as his ability as a head coach. It's an outlier, just like Steve Carlton going 13-20 with a 3.90 ERA one season, or the Indianapolis Colts winning only two games in 2011 after winning 10, 12, 12, 14, 12, 13, 12, 14 and 10 games in the previous nine seasons, and then 11, 11 and 11 in the next three. So please, just stop with the lies.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Jan 27, 2019 16:41:19 GMT -8
Unsolicited fact check:
Conference record through the 79 games played to date for Coach Tinkle, 29-50
Conference record through the first 79 games for Coach Robinson, 28-51
Unsolicited fact check: Conference record through the first five Pac-12 seasons for George Horton: 69-72 Conference record through the first five Pac-10 seasons for Pat Casey: 44-86. Ergo, George Horton is a far superior coach. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
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gnawitall
Sophomore
Posts: 2,352
Member is Online
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Post by gnawitall on Jan 27, 2019 16:45:17 GMT -8
Unsolicited fact check:
Conference record through the 79 games played to date for Coach Tinkle, 29-50
Conference record through the first 79 games for Coach Robinson, 28-51
Unsolicited fact check: Conference record through the first five Pac-12 seasons for George Horton: 69-72 Conference record through the first five Pac-10 seasons for Pat Casey: 44-86. Ergo, George Casey is a far superior coach. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. amazing the success a Brand can muster.
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Post by Judge Smails on Jan 27, 2019 17:04:41 GMT -8
Unsolicited fact check:
Conference record through the 79 games played to date for Coach Tinkle, 29-50
Conference record through the first 79 games for Coach Robinson, 28-51
Unsolicited fact check: Conference record through the first five Pac-12 seasons for George Horton: 69-72 Conference record through the first five Pac-10 seasons for Pat Casey: 44-86. Ergo, George Casey is a far superior coach. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. George Casey? Oops
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Post by OSUprof on Jan 27, 2019 17:15:17 GMT -8
Unsolicited fact check: Conference record through the first five Pac-12 seasons for George Horton: 69-72 Conference record through the first five Pac-10 seasons for Pat Casey: 44-86. Ergo, George Casey is a far superior coach. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. George Casey? Oops That would be Pat's other brother.
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Post by OSUprof on Jan 27, 2019 17:42:31 GMT -8
Unsolicited fact check:
Conference record through the 79 games played to date for Coach Tinkle, 29-50
Conference record through the first 79 games for Coach Robinson, 28-51
Unsolicited fact check: Conference record through the first five Pac-12 seasons for George Horton: 69-72 Conference record through the first five Pac-10 seasons for Pat Casey: 44-86. Ergo, George Casey is a far superior coach. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. I like Wayne Tinkle and want him to do well here. If you were to choose a head coach for men's basketball from central casting, Wayne would be the guy. But he's not in Montana anymore and he needs to elevate his game.
When Pat Casey came to OSU, the school was ready to close up the baseball program and the university had plans to construct a building on the current location of the field. OSU was like many programs that were looking for ways to trim budgets and a good number of schools around the country dropped baseball, including Oregon.
There were no lights, no stadium, and depressions in the field when Pat started - my high school in California had much better baseball facilities than OSU. The non-conference opponents consisted of George Fox, Willamette and Linfield, and for conference play OSU was in the North Pac. Despite fielding competitive teams, OSU and its fans did not care about baseball as there were virtually no resources to support the program. Casey was 61-41 in his first 4 years in the North Pac.
But Casey knew that for baseball to survive and thrive at OSU, he and the program had to elevate their game. The Pac-10 record that you mentioned was for a program that had been used to playing lower division schools and did not play USC, Stanford, ASU, Arizona, Cal, and UCLA in league. At the same time, Pat was convincing a few fans of the game including Phil Knight, that the program needed lights and a stadium. I was in the stands in those early years and few fans showed for any game. Oregon on the other hand, hired a national championship coach, built a new stadium, and poured money into the program. With resources that Pat could only dream about in his first five years with the reunification of the league, it should not be surprising that Horton had a better record in his first 5 years. But hardly a fair comparison.
The bottom line is that baseball is not a revenue sport. Coaches are given a much longer leash in baseball than in men's basketball - usually the #2 revenue sport. OSU and its fans clearly demonstrated that they had little interest in baseball. But Pat Casey made them care. One more thing, OSU is dead last in combined winning seasons for football and men's basketball over the last 30 years among Power 5 programs. Women's basketball and baseball are markedly more popular at OSU for good reason, because fans are starved for winners.
Wayne needs to make fans care about OSU men's basketball.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Jan 27, 2019 18:19:55 GMT -8
Tinkle is looking like he might be able to do it this year. If we make either the NCAA or the NIT, then I will be happy. Firing a coach after 5 years who has brought us to being respectable and back to the big dance seems like a dumb idea. Oregon State isn't a place that can bring in a big time coach, and any other coach would take another 4-5 years to bring their players and systems into place, which by then people will call for their heads. Tinkle has been to the NCAA tourney 4 times in his 12+ year career as a HC. I want to see if he can sustain what he has been building when the sons leave. Completely false assertion that it takes 4-5 years for hoops. All you have to do is watch yesterday. A long time assistant, no D1 HCing (maybe no HC??) experience, from the east coast, takes a 9-22/2-16 team (also.brutal the two years prior) to 21 wins/10-8 in Pac12 in year 1. Year 2 is 7-0 in Pac12 playing terrific D and very disciplined O, and recruiting very well. And, it's not because it's Seattle. It's the coach first and foremost. OSU "can't" is a figment. Hasn't yet due to who was doing the hiring is more like it. And, as for "sustaining"... would that be mediocre .500 ball only due to weak OOC schedules? What, closer to 20 games under in league play? Not happening because of idiotic extension, but it can be done. Holy cow even a clutz like CR did a remarkable job in years 1 and 2 after what JJ left us. As far as CR'r remarkable job years one and two with what JJ left us goes.... JJ left CR players that had averaged a total of 49.2 points, 23.5 rebounds and 10.1 assists a game the previous season. CR took those players and finished 13 and 17, until the CBI decided they wanted OBama's brother in the tournament for publicity. The only other team the CBI took with a losing record was 16 and 17 St. Johns. Year number two of CR's remarkableness, he took the Beavers to a 14 and 17 record, and yet another fabulous CBI tournament visit as the only team in the tournament without a winning record. Three of JJ's top 6 or 7 scoring players were still playing significant roles for CR in CR's third season. CR left Tinkle players that had averaged a combined total of 17 points, 9.4 rebounds and 3 assists. In he first season, Tinkle took those kids, everybody's preseason pick to finish last in the conference, to 17 and 14 and 7th place in the conference. OSU turned down a trip to the CBI that season. In Tinkle's second season, he added his first 3 freshmen recruits and took that team to a 19 and 12 record, before losing in the NCAA tournament. It was the Beaver's first NCAA tournament appearance in 26 years. The only CR carryover in Tinkles' third season was an injured N'Diaye who was able to play 9 games of spot action.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Jan 27, 2019 18:31:46 GMT -8
. We aren't a school that can bring in great coach, or the talent that UW brings in. Uhhh baseball, womens basketball and several football recruits would like to tell you how off that statement is. Overall players follow coaches. How'd Miller ever get Gary Payton to sucky Corvallis. Or was GP a scrub. I'll never understand the loser woe is us mentality some fans have. Miller got Gary Payton to Corvallis in part because Oregon State was willing to keep him for 9 seasons without winning an 8-10 team conference and only one NCAA tournament appearance (granted it was tougher to get in the tourney in those days) before Miller started hitting gold in year 10. Even in Miller's latter years there were fans calling for his dismissal, calling him a dinosaur. Pat Casey had losing conference seasons in 7 of his first 10 seasons at OSU. His head would have rolled long before reaching Omaha if he was held to the standard some of our fans hold Tinkle. Women's basketball? Scott Rueck is quite possibly the best stroke of luck hire OSU has had. You can't count on that to happen on a frequent basis.
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2ndGenBeaver
Sophomore
Posts: 1,803
Grad Year: 1991 (MS/CS) 1999 (PhD/CS)
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on Jan 27, 2019 18:58:57 GMT -8
Completely false assertion that it takes 4-5 years for hoops. All you have to do is watch yesterday. A long time assistant, no D1 HCing (maybe no HC??) experience, from the east coast, takes a 9-22/2-16 team (also.brutal the two years prior) to 21 wins/10-8 in Pac12 in year 1. Year 2 is 7-0 in Pac12 playing terrific D and very disciplined O, and recruiting very well. And, it's not because it's Seattle. It's the coach first and foremost. OSU "can't" is a figment. Hasn't yet due to who was doing the hiring is more like it. And, as for "sustaining"... would that be mediocre .500 ball only due to weak OOC schedules? What, closer to 20 games under in league play? Not happening because of idiotic extension, but it can be done. Holy cow even a clutz like CR did a remarkable job in years 1 and 2 after what JJ left us. JJ left CR players that had averaged a total of 49.2 points, 23.5 rebounds and 10.1 assists a game the previous season. CR took those players and finished 13 and 17, until the CBI decided they wanted OBama's brother in the tournament for publicity. The only other team the CBI took with a losing record was 16 and 17 St. Johns. Year number two of CR's remarkableness, he took the Beavers to a 14 and 17 record, and yet another fabulous CBI tournament visit as the only team in the tournament without a winning record. I am not that interested in getting in on this debate (for the record I liked both CR and his BiL, and I think the jury is still out on if WT has has the coaching chops or recruiting to get us back to anywhere near the Miller-esque days of yore), but there is another factoid re: OSU and the CBI that might have even more bearing on our invitations than CR's BiL being who he was...... I am pretty sure the management group that manages the CBI also served as CR's management agency, so it was in their best interests for a coach that they managed to be successful, losing record or not. We also had a losing record in a "power" conference, as did St. John's, so perhaps the optics on this aren't so bad. I don't know if anyone would care if WT's sister gave the commencement address (I don't even know if WT *has* a sister), though most basketball fans don't go to commencement on a regular basis for entertainment, I suspect. Go Beavers!
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Jan 27, 2019 19:03:03 GMT -8
Unsolicited fact check: Conference record through the first five Pac-12 seasons for George Horton: 69-72 Conference record through the first five Pac-10 seasons for Pat Casey: 44-86. Ergo, George Casey is a far superior coach. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. I like Wayne Tinkle and want him to do well here. If you were to choose a head coach for men's basketball from central casting, Wayne would be the guy. But he's not in Montana anymore and he needs to elevate his game.
When Pat Casey came to OSU, the school was ready to close up the baseball program and the university had plans to construct a building on the current location of the field. OSU was like many programs that were looking for ways to trim budgets and a good number of schools around the country dropped baseball, including Oregon.
There were no lights, no stadium, and depressions in the field when Pat started - my high school in California had much better baseball facilities than OSU. The non-conference opponents consisted of George Fox, Willamette and Linfield, and for conference play OSU was in the North Pac. Despite fielding competitive teams, OSU and its fans did not care about baseball as there were virtually no resources to support the program. Casey was 61-41 in his first 4 years in the North Pac.
But Casey knew that for baseball to survive and thrive at OSU, he and the program had to elevate their game. The Pac-10 record that you mentioned was for a program that had been used to playing lower division schools and did not play USC, Stanford, ASU, Arizona, Cal, and UCLA in league. At the same time, Pat was convincing a few fans of the game including Phil Knight, that the program needed lights and a stadium. I was in the stands in those early years and few fans showed for any game. Oregon on the other hand, hired a national championship coach, built a new stadium, and poured money into the program. With resources that Pat could only dream about in his first five years with the reunification of the league, it should not be surprising that Horton had a better record in his first 5 years. But hardly a fair comparison.
The bottom line is that baseball is not a revenue sport. Coaches are given a much longer leash in baseball than in men's basketball - usually the #2 revenue sport. OSU and its fans clearly demonstrated that they had little interest in baseball. But Pat Casey made them care. One more thing, OSU is dead last in combined winning seasons for football and men's basketball over the last 30 years among Power 5 programs. Women's basketball and baseball are markedly more popular at OSU for good reason, because fans are starved for winners.
Wayne needs to make fans care about OSU men's basketball.
It's as fair a comparison as CR to WT. Oregon didn't even have a program when Horton showed up.
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jbjam
Freshman
Posts: 128
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Post by jbjam on Jan 27, 2019 19:23:19 GMT -8
Uhhh baseball, womens basketball and several football recruits would like to tell you how off that statement is. Overall players follow coaches. How'd Miller ever get Gary Payton to sucky Corvallis. Or was GP a scrub. I'll never understand the loser woe is us mentality some fans have. Miller got Gary Payton to Corvallis in part because Oregon State was willing to keep him for 9 seasons without winning an 8-10 team conference and only one NCAA tournament appearance (granted it was tougher to get in the tourney in those days) before Miller started hitting gold in year 10. Even in Miller's latter years there were fans calling for his dismissal, calling him a dinosaur. Pat Casey had losing conference seasons in 7 of his first 10 seasons at OSU. His head would have rolled long before reaching Omaha if he was held to the standard some of our fans hold Tinkle. Women's basketball? Scott Rueck is quite possibly the best stroke of luck hire OSU has had. You can't count on that to happen on a frequent basis. You missed my point. OSU being in Corvallis is not a hindrance/insurmountable obstacle. I'm not calling for him to go yet, I am willing to wait and see how they finish. Year five to nine Miller's teams finished 2nd three times and 3rd two times. I'd be ecstatic if WT averages a 2-3rd place finish the next five years. I'll chip in for a statue out front Gill. Heck I'll pay for the whole thing .
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 27, 2019 19:41:07 GMT -8
Lol... in looking back it's very interesting. Some of the same WT defenders were also the true "believers" ardent in their "attacks" on anyone who had negatives on GAG's hire! You know who you are and your acumen for excuses and turning a blind eye are well documented.😏🍻
So... I guess that's as good as some of the inane comparisons being made above. Stats can be used to make any point. Win Loss record and conference placements are fairly objective when in the same era. Unless of course you have to resort to stats to defend them.
As mentioned above... men's hoops is a (supposed to be) revenue sport. This is not Montana WT needs to step up his "game".
The "lies" here are that: OSU should accept mediocrity. That OSU can't attract/hire a better option. That posters are calling for WT's head.
And... sadly that even though witnessed and commented on by several members here, JT's behavior is seen as suitable (and defended on this site) for a OSU fan, let alone a family member of staff. It's used as a joke that disparages the student, the fans who saw it, and the university. You don't have to be holier than thou to not think it was a disgrace to the program and university. And, even more so, if it'd been an opponent's behavior... player, coach, family member there would have been several threads decrying how bush league and in poor taste.
But, hypocrites in here that find fault and post derogatory details about opponents (hey... what about the color of a UW player's skin in comparison to a nuclear disaster) yet think actions like Ms Tinkle's are ok... you lower the regard to what it is to be an OSU fan.
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Post by Judge Smails on Jan 27, 2019 19:58:03 GMT -8
Lol... in looking back it's very interesting. Some of the same WT defenders were also the true "believers" ardent in their "attacks" on anyone who had negatives on GAG's hire! You know who you are and your acumen for excuses and turning a blind eye are well documented.😏🍻 So... I guess that's as good as some of the inane comparisons being made above. Stats can be used to make any point. Win Loss record and conference placements are fairly objective when in the same era. Unless of course you have to resort to stats to defend them. As mentioned above... men's hoops is a (supposed to be) revenue sport. This is not Montana WT needs to step up his "game". The "lies" here are that: OSU should accept mediocrity. That OSU can't attract/hire a better option. That posters are calling for WT's head. And... sadly that even though witnessed and commented on by several members here, JT's behavior is seen as suitable (and defended on this site) for a OSU fan, let alone a family member of staff. It's used as a joke that disparages the student, the fans who saw it, and the university. You don't have to be holier than thou to not think it was a disgrace to the program and university. And, even more so, if it'd been an opponent's behavior... player, coach, family member there would have been several threads decrying how bush league and in poor taste. But, hypocrites in here that find fault and post derogatory details about opponents (hey... what about the color of a UW player's skin in comparison to a nuclear disaster) yet think actions like Ms Tinkle's are ok... you lower the regard to what it is to be an OSU fan. Thank you Mr. moral high ground. We should all bow down to your fandom. In other words, lighten up Francis.
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Post by beaverstever on Jan 27, 2019 22:18:52 GMT -8
I'm certainly not stoked about WT's results to date overall, but I find it interesting that as I look around the league (to places with generally a much better institutional commitment to basketball), there's almost nobody I'd rather have over WT.
Kent - no way Hurley? Nope - had recruited better, but team is all over the map. Don't believe in the style of play he coaches. Wyking Jones? Has Cal given up on basketball? Tad Boyle? Has had a bit of success that hasn't been sustained... not convinced he's an upgrade. Dana Altman? Better coach, but not better for the program Jerod Haase? Not enthused ...That's the best Stanford could attract? Murray Bartow (or Alford): LOL Larry Krystkowiak: Yes, but would expect him only to be a minor upgrade Mike Hopkins? Sure, if he can recruit at least somewhat in the same stratosphere at OSU Sean Miller? Sure (assuming he's not going to jail eventually), then see Mike Hopkins
Bottom line, there's not a single coach in the Pac-12 that I covet coming to OSU, or even any that could be convinced would for sure come in and definitely do a better job that WT. I do believe there are coaches out there who could, I just doesn't seem that they are coaching out west currently.
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