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JFC
May 24, 2022 21:43:20 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by nuclearbeaver on May 24, 2022 21:43:20 GMT -8
You denigrate a source and yet provide none of your own. I'm not defending the link or how it's calculated but you sure seem to argue against without citing anything. You are willfully ignoring valid statistics. It's a sickness. You want the US to be compared to Pakistan? I don't. And that Pakistan attack wasn't carried out by crazy 18 yo, but by the Taliban. So apples and f%#*ing oranges. Gunfire on School Grounds in the United States: Since 2013 there were at least 925 incidents of gunfire on school grounds, resulting in 295 deaths and 621 injuries nationally. Not including today's mass murder of 15+ at and elementary school in Texas.Wilky thinks this is OK because not everyone of them was a mass shooting and others countries have school shootings too. "School shootings are considered by many to be an epidemic in the United States, as is gun violence in general. According to data from Everytown Research, the United States averaged just over 87 school shootings each year from 2013 to 2021, resulting in an annual average of 28.4 dead and 59.6 wounded. A 2018 CNN feature used slightly tighter criteria and tallied a comparatively lower 288 school shootings in the United States between 2009 and 2018—however, the country with the second-most school shootings during that period, Mexico, experienced only eight shootings during that same time period." The post I was originally responding to was: "Idk why our society chooses to have this s%#t happen. It’s an option that most of the world doesn’t deal with. Still waiting on thoughts and prayers to solve it." My only point was that all three sentences are offensive, uninformed and wrong. I guess that death in other countries does not matter. Just because you do not hear about it does not mean that it does not happen. The goalposts were moved, and I got into a matter of degree argument, which is my fault. You can argue data or facts, and I do not care. But you can't argue CNN gibberish that is made up of numbers that cannot be verified for the United States of America; numbers that are intentionally wrong for some countries; and other countries that have been straight up omitted, because they do not support the narrative without comment. And all of that is repackaged into a single year's number, when CNN's original number was over a decade. You, Glove, then accuse me of "willfully ignoring valid statistics." And I'm not. I am arguing that the statistics cited are unverifiable (at best) and therefore invalid. The old 80% of statistics are made up axiom is proven true. You then attempt to discount a comparison to Pakistan. I brought up Pakistan to attack the original point. Russia had a bigger shootout at a school. Murder by an 18-year-old lunatic is still murder, whether the insane murderer has sworn an oath to the Islamic State or not. You then move on to Everytown statistics. Mike Bloomberg's Everytown! I am curious what Pravda has to say about this. Communist propogandist, what do you think about gun control? It's great. Guns are bad. There you have it; straight from Pravda! One of the 925 of the Everytown shooting incidents is one in Oregon. That incident is that someone heard a gunshot "near" a school. No one was killed or injured. There was no evidence that a gun was fired other than a spent casing was found in a woman's car. The incident concludes that police are still investigating. That is one of the 925. One from California is someone hearing gunshots in a parking lot at a college but absolutely no evidence that there were, in fact, any gunshots fired. For all we know, it was fireworks or a car backfiring or a burst transformer or any number of other things that are misreported as gunshots. One of the 925. One of the 295 deaths was an assistant principal committing suicide in California. He used a gun. Gun violence! If only guns were outlawed, he would have slit his wrists, which would be better somehow and someway. One of the 295. Another of the 925 was an attempted shooting near a school in California that struck two cars with one of the shots lodging into a school gym at 5:45 in the morning before anyone was at the school. I don't think that any of this is ok. But it occupies an inordinate amount of time. Even using the loosest of loose definitions, using the most skewed numbers humanly imaginable by Mike Bloomberg yields 295 deaths in approximately 9.3992 years. That is 31 every year. 331,330+ people died in motor vehicle accidents since 2013. That is a problem that claims more than 1,123 than shootings that occur in the general vicinity of a school. I do not know what you cite at the end, but they attempt to incorporate both CNN's and Mike Bloomberg's malarky. All of it is fruit of the poisonous tree and can and should be readily disregarded. The numbers are not real. I provided real statistics. Get me real statistics that are not hardcore left-wing propaganda, and we can have a meaningful conversation about this. And to conclude, murder at a school is almost always a true tragedy. But using trumped-up propaganda to try and advance a point is not the way to win hearts and minds. You asked for data I got you data. You don’t like the data go find your own. There’s no data set that will show that school mass shootings occur in higher frequency in other parts of the world. You are right that it might be worse in places that don’t track it but how does that matter in terms of data. It doesn’t matter. Nothing changed except kids die cause people who shouldn’t have guns have guns. I don’t think those 15 families who lost a kid tonight care that you don’t like CNN. How about people stop ignoring the problem and try to stop letting kids die. Let’s fund mental health, keep guns out of kids hands, keep guns out of criminals hands, keep guns out of the hands of mentally unstable people. Let’s make gun owners be responsible for the cost to society. If we do nothing then we accept that people keep getting killed. Here’s a British source. www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081Pew research. www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/Random sketchy archive thing www.gunviolencearchive.org/NRA cherry picked data www.nraila.org/get-the-facts/gun-safety/Some weird facts thing www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.aspDecades of free to read research publications and summaries scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C38&q=gun+violence&btnG=They all say the same thing, guns fire and people get hurt. |
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Post by fishwrapper on May 24, 2022 21:52:22 GMT -8
Now this is a great use of one's platform. Megakudos to Coach Kerr. |
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Post by fishwrapper on May 24, 2022 21:58:38 GMT -8
And to conclude, murder at a school is almost always a true tragedy. See, since I read what you typed, it's been nagging at me, and I simply have to ask: what are those exceptions when you think murder at a school is not a true tragedy? |
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JFC
May 24, 2022 22:25:46 GMT -8
Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 24, 2022 22:25:46 GMT -8
And to conclude, murder at a school is almost always a true tragedy. See, since I read what you typed, it's been nagging at me, and I simply have to ask: what are those exceptions when you think murder at a school is not a true tragedy?  |
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JFC
May 24, 2022 22:36:23 GMT -8
Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 24, 2022 22:36:23 GMT -8
The post I was originally responding to was: "Idk why our society chooses to have this s%#t happen. It’s an option that most of the world doesn’t deal with. Still waiting on thoughts and prayers to solve it." My only point was that all three sentences are offensive, uninformed and wrong. I guess that death in other countries does not matter. Just because you do not hear about it does not mean that it does not happen. The goalposts were moved, and I got into a matter of degree argument, which is my fault. You can argue data or facts, and I do not care. But you can't argue CNN gibberish that is made up of numbers that cannot be verified for the United States of America; numbers that are intentionally wrong for some countries; and other countries that have been straight up omitted, because they do not support the narrative without comment. And all of that is repackaged into a single year's number, when CNN's original number was over a decade. You, Glove, then accuse me of "willfully ignoring valid statistics." And I'm not. I am arguing that the statistics cited are unverifiable (at best) and therefore invalid. The old 80% of statistics are made up axiom is proven true. You then attempt to discount a comparison to Pakistan. I brought up Pakistan to attack the original point. Russia had a bigger shootout at a school. Murder by an 18-year-old lunatic is still murder, whether the insane murderer has sworn an oath to the Islamic State or not. You then move on to Everytown statistics. Mike Bloomberg's Everytown! I am curious what Pravda has to say about this. Communist propogandist, what do you think about gun control? It's great. Guns are bad. There you have it; straight from Pravda! One of the 925 of the Everytown shooting incidents is one in Oregon. That incident is that someone heard a gunshot "near" a school. No one was killed or injured. There was no evidence that a gun was fired other than a spent casing was found in a woman's car. The incident concludes that police are still investigating. That is one of the 925. One from California is someone hearing gunshots in a parking lot at a college but absolutely no evidence that there were, in fact, any gunshots fired. For all we know, it was fireworks or a car backfiring or a burst transformer or any number of other things that are misreported as gunshots. One of the 925. One of the 295 deaths was an assistant principal committing suicide in California. He used a gun. Gun violence! If only guns were outlawed, he would have slit his wrists, which would be better somehow and someway. One of the 295. Another of the 925 was an attempted shooting near a school in California that struck two cars with one of the shots lodging into a school gym at 5:45 in the morning before anyone was at the school. I don't think that any of this is ok. But it occupies an inordinate amount of time. Even using the loosest of loose definitions, using the most skewed numbers humanly imaginable by Mike Bloomberg yields 295 deaths in approximately 9.3992 years. That is 31 every year. 331,330+ people died in motor vehicle accidents since 2013. That is a problem that claims more than 1,123 than shootings that occur in the general vicinity of a school. I do not know what you cite at the end, but they attempt to incorporate both CNN's and Mike Bloomberg's malarky. All of it is fruit of the poisonous tree and can and should be readily disregarded. The numbers are not real. I provided real statistics. Get me real statistics that are not hardcore left-wing propaganda, and we can have a meaningful conversation about this. And to conclude, murder at a school is almost always a true tragedy. But using trumped-up propaganda to try and advance a point is not the way to win hearts and minds. You asked for data I got you data. You don’t like the data go find your own. There’s no data set that will show that school mass shootings occur in higher frequency in other parts of the world. You are right that it might be worse in places that don’t track it but how does that matter in terms of data. It doesn’t matter. Nothing changed except kids die cause people who shouldn’t have guns have guns. I don’t think those 15 families who lost a kid tonight care that you don’t like CNN. How about people stop ignoring the problem and try to stop letting kids die. Let’s fund mental health, keep guns out of kids hands, keep guns out of criminals hands, keep guns out of the hands of mentally unstable people. Let’s make gun owners be responsible for the cost to society. If we do nothing then we accept that people keep getting killed. Here’s a British source. www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081Pew research. www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/Random sketchy archive thing www.gunviolencearchive.org/NRA cherry picked data www.nraila.org/get-the-facts/gun-safety/Some weird facts thing www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.aspDecades of free to read research publications and summaries scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C38&q=gun+violence&btnG=They all say the same thing, guns fire and people get hurt. The Crime Prevention Research Center (CPRC) compared the annual number of mass shooting deaths per million people in the U.S. to that of Canada and several European countries from 2009 to 2015. The result? Norway led the world with 1.88 deaths per million, followed by Serbia, France, and Macedonia. Where did the U.S. rank? 11th place. Average (Mean) Annual Death Rate per Million People from Mass Public Shootings (U.S., Canada, and Europe, 2009-2015): Norway — 1.888 Serbia — 0.381 France — 0.347 Macedonia — 0.337 Albania — 0.206 Slovakia — 0.185 Switzerland — 0.142 Finland — 0.132 Belgium — 0.128 Czech Republic — 0.123 United States — 0.089 Austria — 0.068 Netherlands — 0.051 Canada — 0.032 England — 0.027 Germany — 0.023 Russia — 0.012 Italy — 0.009 A lot of people have an illusion of control over events that cannot be controlled. I think that, if you can postulate a fix that solves the problem that you identify without creating far worse obvious unintended consequences, the overwhelming majority of Americans will 100% get on board. But I have never heard a quick fix that does not have far worse unintended consequences, so I remain cynical. There once was a man named Ἡρόστρατος, Herostratus. Herostratus was probably a foreigner or slave of low social standing in Ephesus. In Ephesus stood the second Temple of Artemis, one of the seven Wonders of the World. On July 20/21, 356 BC, Alexander the Great's birthday, Herostratus set fire to the wood rafters of the Temple of Artemis, burning it to the ground. During torture, he admitted to it and stated that he did it, in order to be famous, to be known. The Ephesians, in an attempt to dissuade anyone from following in Herostratus' footsteps, killed Herostratus and made it illegal to mention his name on punishment of death. In 323 BC, a third Temple of Artemis was built, which stood for at least another 725 years before it was destroyed. Herostratic fame is named after Herostratus, to become famous at any cost. The Ephesians actively worked to eliminate evil people and evil actions, to not talk about them, knowing that talking about them only amplifies what they did. Since Columbine, it always seems like we do the opposite. And then are surprised by the results. The Virginia Tech shooter, for example, when he was off his meds and allowed to purchase a gun, because the Court or the prosecutor screwed up, was influenced to shoot up Virginia Tech, because he idolized the Columbine shooters and wanted to achieve that level of fame. My senior year of High School was the Columbine year. Our Student Body President wanted to do a walkout to protest school shootings. I agreed with his sentiments, but I was opposed, because it was just throwing fuel on the fire. Focusing on the shooting makes it more likely that a subsequent shooting will happen, not less. Herostratic fame. People will destroy things and kill people for almost no reason regardless of the tools at their disposal, just for their 15 minutes. The way to stop it is to not sensationalize it. The Ephesians knew this. It was obvious. And yet, here we are almost 2,377 years later. |
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Post by rgeorge on May 24, 2022 22:42:41 GMT -8
What a mixture of emotion... anger is overcoming my sadness. Unfortunately "shock" is no longer appropriate. Another cause of my sadness.
However, there's a bit of fallacy in all the chatter (here or in any discussion) about rules, gun control, background checks, laws, etc.
Criminals don't follow rules, obey laws, submit paperwork, and get they tend guns from other criminals or from breaking the law.
Legislation is great. But, better, different, more efficient law enforcement and ruthless prosecution and punishment will be needed to stem this trend of unlawful tragedies.
What we don't need any more of... the "politicalization" of yet another human tragedy. No more blame and finger pointing. No more stances aimed at retaining a power base. No more hollow words.
When going to church, the grocery store, to school for eff sake is dangerous... life threatening... it's effing time to get our country back.
It's time to pull together to find solutions, take real substantial action. The country most of us remember and want again would unite.
I cannot in any way even begin to understand what these families and those in the past tragedies are going through.
I hope that the love and support of those surrounding them provide some comfort. My and other heartfelt condolences aren't enough. My sincere hopes are that we can stop this so no other families suffer like this.
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rob85
Freshman
Posts: 308 
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JFC
May 25, 2022 1:41:55 GMT -8
Post by rob85 on May 25, 2022 1:41:55 GMT -8
Nothing will change. Sadly.
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JFC
May 25, 2022 3:33:09 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by ag87 on May 25, 2022 3:33:09 GMT -8
The Crime Prevention Research Center (CPRC) compared the annual number of mass shooting deaths per million people in the U.S. to that of Canada and several European countries from 2009 to 2015. The result? Norway led the world with 1.88 deaths per million, followed by Serbia, France, and Macedonia. Where did the U.S. rank? 11th place. Average (Mean) Annual Death Rate per Million People from Mass Public Shootings (U.S., Canada, and Europe, 2009-2015): Norway — 1.888 Serbia — 0.381 France — 0.347 Macedonia — 0.337 Albania — 0.206 Slovakia — 0.185 Switzerland — 0.142 Finland — 0.132 Belgium — 0.128 Czech Republic — 0.123 United States — 0.089 Austria — 0.068 Netherlands — 0.051 Canada — 0.032 England — 0.027 Germany — 0.023 Russia — 0.012 Italy — 0.009 A lot of people have an illusion of control over events that cannot be controlled. I think that, if you can postulate a fix that solves the problem that you identify without creating far worse obvious unintended consequences, the overwhelming majority of Americans will 100% get on board. But I have never heard a quick fix that does not have far worse unintended consequences, so I remain cynical. There once was a man named Ἡρόστρατος, Herostratus. Herostratus was probably a foreigner or slave of low social standing in Ephesus. In Ephesus stood the second Temple of Artemis, one of the seven Wonders of the World. On July 20/21, 356 BC, Alexander the Great's birthday, Herostratus set fire to the wood rafters of the Temple of Artemis, burning it to the ground. During torture, he admitted to it and stated that he did it, in order to be famous, to be known. The Ephesians, in an attempt to dissuade anyone from following in Herostratus' footsteps, killed Herostratus and made it illegal to mention his name on punishment of death. In 323 BC, a third Temple of Artemis was built, which stood for at least another 725 years before it was destroyed. Herostratic fame is named after Herostratus, to become famous at any cost. The Ephesians actively worked to eliminate evil people and evil actions, to not talk about them, knowing that talking about them only amplifies what they did. Since Columbine, it always seems like we do the opposite. And then are surprised by the results. The Virginia Tech shooter, for example, when he was off his meds and allowed to purchase a gun, because the Court or the prosecutor screwed up, was influenced to shoot up Virginia Tech, because he idolized the Columbine shooters and wanted to achieve that level of fame. My senior year of High School was the Columbine year. Our Student Body President wanted to do a walkout to protest school shootings. I agreed with his sentiments, but I was opposed, because it was just throwing fuel on the fire. Focusing on the shooting makes it more likely that a subsequent shooting will happen, not less. Herostratic fame. People will destroy things and kill people for almost no reason regardless of the tools at their disposal, just for their 15 minutes. The way to stop it is to not sensationalize it. The Ephesians knew this. It was obvious. And yet, here we are almost 2,377 years later. arghhhh. medium.com/@ckava/citing-the-crime-prevention-research-center-as-a-reliable-resource-is-extremely-problematic-f6ff5d5f9724 |
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Post by TheGlove on May 25, 2022 3:33:22 GMT -8
See, since I read what you typed, it's been nagging at me, and I simply have to ask: what are those exceptions when you think murder at a school is not a true tragedy? you’re a sick person. |
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JFC
May 25, 2022 4:42:21 GMT -8
Post by fishwrapper on May 25, 2022 4:42:21 GMT -8
I'm sure all the families take great comfort in that response.
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JFC
May 25, 2022 4:54:03 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by spudbeaver on May 25, 2022 4:54:03 GMT -8
A true tragedy on so many levels. I have no idea what the solution is...ban all guns? Millions of them out there now (I have two of them)...Require mental health exams for all citizens on a regular basis? Good luck with that. Restrict the sale of ammo? My thought is to get the insurance companies involved. Make gun owners carry insurance. There's an industry that knows how to calculate risk and make things unaffordable. Yeah, because that would have stopped this sick nutball. |
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Post by spudbeaver on May 25, 2022 4:57:08 GMT -8
Now this is a great use of one's platform. Megakudos to Coach Kerr. If it happened with a Chinese made weapon Kerr would be silent. |
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JFC
May 25, 2022 5:35:22 GMT -8
via mobile
irimi likes this
Post by nuclearbeaver on May 25, 2022 5:35:22 GMT -8
My thought is to get the insurance companies involved. Make gun owners carry insurance. There's an industry that knows how to calculate risk and make things unaffordable. Yeah, because that would have stopped this sick nutball. It’s the logical conclusion of ‘responsible gun owner’. If people are responsible a well regulated, either state run or profit limited, insurance industry will stay low. If gun violence continues then costs will ratchet up. If everyone does a great job keeping their firearms safely stored then the cost burden of ownership stays low. If they don’t then it gets too high and guns stop being legally owned. It’s a test of the rhetoric that yields a real result. Next step is we have a bunch of illegal guns. Well they now start getting seized from the irresponsible gun owners. It’s the same concept as car insurance except cars do things besides fire projectiles so the cost burden accepted is probably much higher. This is a step that could actually happen. It would be very slow but atleast it would be something. Things that would actually reduce gun violence in a significant manner never happen. If they were going to happen Sandy Hook would have done it, Vegas would have done it, Parkland would have done it. Over and over it’s been shown that the political system uses is at as wedge and football for elections and never pass anything. Just more bodies, more thoughts and prayers. |
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Post by irimi on May 25, 2022 6:30:25 GMT -8
My thought is to get the insurance companies involved. Make gun owners carry insurance. There's an industry that knows how to calculate risk and make things unaffordable. Yeah, because that would have stopped this sick nutball. I'm currently reading Uncle Tom's Cabin, which I regret not having read as younger man. It is beautifully written, even though it is overly religious. As you probably know, it is a treatise on the slavery issue, and its goal is to show that slavery is evil, even among kind owners of slaves. Very ambitious. One character says to the other, essentially, if all slave holders were evil and terrible with their slaves, then slavery would be seen as the evil and corrupt system it is. It would be thrown out in a second. I bring this up because I think it is fitting. I know that the comparison isn't exactly equal, but it makes an interesting point that separating the "good" owners from the "bad" owners allows you to escape talking about the real issue: doing something about gun ownership. The US has done very little to address this national problem in order to kowtow to gun owners and the NRA. You cannot separate yourself from the "nutballs." You all have blood on your hands, and more often than not, it's the blood of schoolchildren. |
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Post by Werebeaver on May 25, 2022 6:34:55 GMT -8
You denigrate a source and yet provide none of your own. I'm not defending the link or how it's calculated but you sure seem to argue against without citing anything. You are willfully ignoring valid statistics. It's a sickness. You want the US to be compared to Pakistan? I don't. And that Pakistan attack wasn't carried out by crazy 18 yo, but by the Taliban. So apples and f%#*ing oranges. Gunfire on School Grounds in the United States: Since 2013 there were at least 925 incidents of gunfire on school grounds, resulting in 295 deaths and 621 injuries nationally. Not including today's mass murder of 15+ at and elementary school in Texas.Wilky thinks this is OK because not everyone of them was a mass shooting and others countries have school shootings too. "School shootings are considered by many to be an epidemic in the United States, as is gun violence in general. According to data from Everytown Research, the United States averaged just over 87 school shootings each year from 2013 to 2021, resulting in an annual average of 28.4 dead and 59.6 wounded. A 2018 CNN feature used slightly tighter criteria and tallied a comparatively lower 288 school shootings in the United States between 2009 and 2018—however, the country with the second-most school shootings during that period, Mexico, experienced only eight shootings during that same time period." The post I was originally responding to was: "Idk why our society chooses to have this s%#t happen. It’s an option that most of the world doesn’t deal with. Still waiting on thoughts and prayers to solve it." My only point was that all three sentences are offensive, uninformed and wrong. I guess that death in other countries does not matter. Just because you do not hear about it does not mean that it does not happen. The goalposts were moved, and I got into a matter of degree argument, which is my fault. You can argue data or facts, and I do not care. But you can't argue CNN gibberish that is made up of numbers that cannot be verified for the United States of America; numbers that are intentionally wrong for some countries; and other countries that have been straight up omitted, because they do not support the narrative without comment. And all of that is repackaged into a single year's number, when CNN's original number was over a decade. You, Glove, then accuse me of "willfully ignoring valid statistics." And I'm not. I am arguing that the statistics cited are unverifiable (at best) and therefore invalid. The old 80% of statistics are made up axiom is proven true. You then attempt to discount a comparison to Pakistan. I brought up Pakistan to attack the original point. Russia had a bigger shootout at a school. Murder by an 18-year-old lunatic is still murder, whether the insane murderer has sworn an oath to the Islamic State or not. You then move on to Everytown statistics. Mike Bloomberg's Everytown! I am curious what Pravda has to say about this. Communist propogandist, what do you think about gun control? It's great. Guns are bad. There you have it; straight from Pravda! One of the 925 of the Everytown shooting incidents is one in Oregon. That incident is that someone heard a gunshot "near" a school. No one was killed or injured. There was no evidence that a gun was fired other than a spent casing was found in a woman's car. The incident concludes that police are still investigating. That is one of the 925. One from California is someone hearing gunshots in a parking lot at a college but absolutely no evidence that there were, in fact, any gunshots fired. For all we know, it was fireworks or a car backfiring or a burst transformer or any number of other things that are misreported as gunshots. One of the 925. One of the 295 deaths was an assistant principal committing suicide in California. He used a gun. Gun violence! If only guns were outlawed, he would have slit his wrists, which would be better somehow and someway. One of the 295. Another of the 925 was an attempted shooting near a school in California that struck two cars with one of the shots lodging into a school gym at 5:45 in the morning before anyone was at the school. I don't think that any of this is ok. But it occupies an inordinate amount of time. Even using the loosest of loose definitions, using the most skewed numbers humanly imaginable by Mike Bloomberg yields 295 deaths in approximately 9.3992 years. That is 31 every year. 331,330+ people died in motor vehicle accidents since 2013. That is a problem that claims more than 1,123 than shootings that occur in the general vicinity of a school. I do not know what you cite at the end, but they attempt to incorporate both CNN's and Mike Bloomberg's malarky. All of it is fruit of the poisonous tree and can and should be readily disregarded. The numbers are not real. I provided real statistics. Get me real statistics that are not hardcore left-wing propaganda, and we can have a meaningful conversation about this. And to conclude, murder at a school is almost always a true tragedy. But using trumped-up propaganda to try and advance a point is not the way to win hearts and minds. 671 words. Trying to convince yourself that this is not a big deal. Pathetic attempted sophistry. But totally on-brand. And worthless. |
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