Long, long overdue.

Benedict Arnold was a British subject, who fought for the British in the French and Indian War.  He joined the Rebels in 1775 and fought against his country for four years before reforming and rejoining the British cause.  He then successfully campaigned for Britain in Connecticut and Virginia.  After Yorktown, he went to Britain and campaigned to regain the 13 colonies, but Lord North's government fell on March 20, 1782.

As the British like to point out all the damn time in their media, you must remember that Americans have always been rebels.

Sir Francis Drake was a pirate to Spain but a hero to England.



Benedict Arnold was a hero to England but a traitor the United States.


The Right Honourable John Montagu, the Fourth Earl of Sandwich, was First Lord of the Admiralty, during the Revolutionary War.  Yet we still eat sandwiches, and there is an Earl of Sandwich restaurant that I have eaten at.

History is complicated.  Whitewashing it defeats our ability to learn from it.

Lee resigned from his post in the United States Army and attempted to defend his native Virginia from at least six separate invasions by the United States Army.  Lee didn't turn traitor.  He advocated against secession.  But his state seceded.  He served his State and attempted to defend it against six separate invasions.  He requested amnesty/pardon on June 13, 1865 and took the Amnesty Oath on October 2, 1865.  His rights as a citizen of the United States were restored on August 5, 1975, retroactive to June 13, 1865.  He spent his final 5+ years working to knit the country back together.

The Antietam Creek is in Maryland.  Correct. 

Harper's Ferry was in Virginia in 1862.  (It is now in West Virginia.)  Lee crossed the Potomac, in order to screen his attempts to capture the supply depot at Harper's Ferry, Virginia.  He successfully took Harper's Ferry, Virginia, but lost at the Battle of Crampton's Gap, which ultimately led to the Union strategic victory at Antietam.

If Lee was a traitor, then why was he never prosecuted as a traitor?

My rhetorical is just as valid as yours.

I am pretty sure that Lee did not take up arms against anyone during the Civil War.  And as such, he did not "fight" as that term is usually used.  He was a field general.  He directed people with arms against the United States Army.  The reason that he did so?  The United States Army was in the semi-sovereign state of Virginia without the permission of and in direct contravention of the Will of the People of the State of Virginia.  

The Government of the Confederate State of America sucked.  People within the Government of the Confederate States of America should rightly be vilified.  The reasons why the State of Virginia seceded are stupid.

However, it is my belief that a citizen of the State of Virginia could choose to defend his home state from an enemy, which could rightly be deemed simultaneously both foreign and domestic.  If Oregon seceded from the United States, if you defended Oregon from invasion from a foreign Army, would you be a traitor?  I dunno.  It is quite clearly much more nuanced than the bright lines that you wish to draw IMO.

You switch the debate from is a traitor, which Lee clearly is not to was a traitor, to was a traitor.

“Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.”--George Orwell.

Winners write the history books.  Lee joined the rebels, as Americans did during the Revolutionary War.  He defended Virginia from an invasion from an Army, which claimed sovereignty over Virginia, like countless Virginians did during the Revolutionary War.    


Was he a traitor?  President Lincoln didn't think so.  (With malice towards none, with charity for all.)  President Johnson didn't think so.  General Grant didn't think so.  You can think so, if you would like.  I personally believe that I am in better company.

It should also be remembered that Civil Wars usually end with countless fields of unmarked mass graves.  People like Lee are the reason that the American Civil War did not end the same way.  Our success as a Nation is that we are all Americans.  We disagree at times about how best to move this country forward, but we always come together when we must, in order to defend our America from all enemies: foreign, domestic, financial and immunological.  Lee is a symbol of that.  He was born an American, fought for America and died an American educator, dedicated to the continuation and progress of this country.

Your first question hits the nail straight on the head.  A Governor has the right to not allow federal authorities, including the Army into his State.  If the United States Army enters into a State without permission of the Governor and, indeed, in direct contravention of requests made by the Governor, does the Governor have the right to expel the federal authorities or not.

That is a question that comes up until this very day.  Look at the attacks on federal buildings in the State of Oregon and subsequent federal actions.  What are the Governor's rights in that scenario?  Good stuff.  If you believe that the President and the Federal Government truly has a right to basically put agents and troops pretty much wherever you want, I would wholeheartedly disagree with you.  That is a scary level of power to allow the Federal Government.

100,000 seems high.  I can't even get there using numbers that include African-Americans, let alone just whites.  Where do you get those numbers?  No matter how you slice it, almost half of the Union troops from the South were from Tennessee. 

The People of the State of Tennessee voted to remain in the Union by more than seven points before Fort Sumter.  After President Lincoln called for a 75,000-man militia a new vote was called.  The People of the State of Tennessee in a probably fraudulent election voted to secede on June 8, 1861, the last State to secede.  The 28 Eastern Counties voted to remain in the Union by almost 70-30.  Eastern Tennessee then attempted to secede from the State of Tennessee  on July 10, 1861, but that attempt was forcibly put down by the Secessionists.  Nashville and Central Tennessee fell to the Union on February 25, 1862.  Tennessee's Senator Andrew Johnson became the Military Governor of the State of Tennessee on March 14, 1862.  Tennessee's largest city, Memphis, fell on June 6, 1862.  At that point, for all practical purposes, Tennessee ceased to be a Confederate State, 363 days after seceding.  Confederate troops occupied portions of Tennessee for more than two years thereafter, but the State was fully under Union control by the end of 1864.

Almost half of the remainder of Union troops from the Confederate States came from West Virginia.  (Even using some crazy numbers from the other states, you need the 20,000-22,000 troops from West Virginia to get to 100,000.)

Excluding West Virginia, between 6-8% of Virginians fought for the Union.  92-94% of the soldiers from Virginia fought for the Confederacy.

Robert E. Lee is not my idol.  There are a lot better people to idolize and Lee falls far short of them.  I jumped into this because of the initial assertion that Robert E. Lee is a traitor.  He is not.  However, whether he was a traitor is debatable, but I think that he clearly was not thought of as one by most contemporaries.  

Slave hunts are pure evil.  Individuals that participated in slave hunts are evil people.  Trying the old guilt by association fallacy, huh?  Just because evil people attached themselves to Lee does not make him evil.  Just like gunmen, who support Bernie Sanders, who shoot Congressmen, do not make Sanders evil.  

The Confederate State of America Constitution is asinine.  Its leaders were asinine.  No argument here.

Lee Marvin, William Howard Taft, JFK, RFK, Joe Louis, Thurgood Marshall, Pierre Charles L'Enfant, Robert Perry and Pete Conrad are all buried at Arlington.  It is great that you believe that tying those individuals to Lee is such a great honor?

They didn't have me as a lawyer.

I was disputing the statements made.  He was asked to defend Virginia.  He did so without taking up arms.

Donitz relied on that defense and was successful at avoiding the gallows.  Basically Donitz argued that he signed Hitler's orders but issued countermanding orders to individuals more closely under his control, when he felt that Hitler was clearly in the wrong.

Donitz didn’t walk. He got 10 years and served every day of his sentence. 

Tecumseh was a pro-slavery leader, who fought against the United States of America during the War of 1812.  He was killed during the War.  He lost.  Should we take down his statue at the Naval Academy, as well?