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Post by beavershoopsfan on Apr 25, 2020 20:09:29 GMT -8
Thickhead is informed with his COVID-19 facts and the obstacles that we face in returning to a world that allows us to do many of the things that we love to do. He is being real above by pointing out what no one really wants to contemplate. With respect to pro basketball starting to prepare to be in position for a restart to the NBA season, NBA players will have access to gyms to work out on their own beginning as early as May 1. The action merely provides access for players who may not otherwise have ready access to working out. As has been pointed out by multiple others on this thread, the threat of what should happen when (not if) one or more players contract the virus makes a resumption of NBA play in 2020 a very risky proposition. www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2020/04/25/nba-could-reopen-team-practice-facilities-may-1/3028639001/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2020 21:19:02 GMT -8
Thickhead is informed with his COVID-19 facts and the obstacles that we face in returning to a world that allows us to do many of the things that we love to do. He is being real above by pointing out what no one really wants to contemplate. With respect to pro basketball starting to prepare to be in position for a restart to the NBA season, NBA players will have access to gyms to work out on their own beginning as early as May 1. The action merely provides access for players who may not otherwise have ready access to working out. As has been pointed out by multiple others on this thread, the threat of what should happen when (not if) one or more players contract the virus makes a resumption of NBA play in 2020 a very risky proposition. www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2020/04/25/nba-could-reopen-team-practice-facilities-may-1/3028639001/I wasn't entirely correct, above. The flu vaccine is supposed to be 60% effective normally. The vaccine doesn't match all forms of the virus each year. In the statistics I quoted, we don't know how many of the people who came down with the flu were vaccinated and I made it sound like the flu vaccine was only 10% effective. But it is notable that the flu vaccine is not 100% effective. A vaccine for the new coronavirus would probably have to be similarly effective and a majority of people would have to be vaccinated for the virus to be contained because this virus is so highly contagious. If everybody could be vaccinated with a vaccine that is at least 80% effective, then that would provide sufficient herd immunity to prevent the disease from spreading. We're not going to have a vaccine this year in all likelihood, and I think fall of 2021 may not even happen, either, unless a vaccine can be fully deployed by then. I'm a big fan of basketball and I had hopes for OSU football this year to be at least interesting and competitive, but no longer. I'm going to be hurting for something to get me through the fall and winter months. Can't travel, can't eat at restaurants, etc. Man, this next year is going to be bad.
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Post by beaverstever on Apr 25, 2020 21:29:41 GMT -8
@thickhead
There are plenty of reasons to be optimistic as well - keep your heads up.
Before anybody reads further, I want to make clear I'm not an expert. This is purely from summary thoughts of my own research, and am not a medical professional.
Flu vaccines are hit and miss every year - some years they are much better than others. They try to predict what viruses will be prevalent the following season and target those in the vaccine. If a different set of viruses that weren't targeted take off, then it's not very helpful. If they guess right, it can have a pretty good impact ... but it's never 100%, because they can't target every possible flu virus. This is not the case when they are developing for 1 virus in COVID-19.
We certainly could come up with a vaccine for the common cold, but it would not be worth the cost. This is partly because there are lots of different virues that cause cold and partly because they are no big deal, so nobody would bother paying for a vaccine. Coronaviruses have been known about for a long time, they've just been no big deal, so few have studied them. Now there's a Herculean effort to understand this on a scale never been done, and we are figuring a lot out very fast.
Yes, the virus can evolve and make a specific vaccine less effective. Some viruses evolve quickly, others do not. The virus that caused the Spanish flu evolved pretty quickly - initially it was mild, then evolved to become deadly, and then evolved again to become mild again. We don't yet know if COVID-19 will evolve at all, and if it does, how it will evolve. Of course, it could evolve to be worse, but it could evolve to become less problematic as well, if it even evolves quickly at all.
The antibody studies now happening are finding that a lot more people have been exposed than we thought, meaning the mortality rate of COVID-19 is likely to ultimate be much, much lower than the numbers seen based on testing data. Obviously that doesn't matter to the population that ends up being very vulnerable to it, but it does matter in terms of public health action.
There's also increasing evidence that exposure dosage has significant impact on outcomes; this is generally understood with any contagious disease (i.e. there's some minimal population exposure to getting symptoms vs. your body just fighting it off before it takes hold, and if you get a high level of exposure right away, the virus has lots of time to establish itself before the immune response). Since COVID-19 has been proven to be highly contagious, it will still spread at a decent rate even with social distancing. However, that will also mean the exposure's will more often be at lower levels for the newly infected population. This may (should) lead to arriving at herd immunity with a lot lower rate of fatalities; i.e. we may see more and more people develop antibodies to the disease that exhibit few or no symptoms.
While I agree we probably don't get back to what we saw as 'normal' anytime soon (probably never fully back to what we used to see as normal), there's no question that this too shall pass. And while it may drag on, there's also a good chance we stumble onto something that helps us turn a corner quickly. For instance, if we had figured out about using chlorine in pools in the 1920's, Polio would have had a much smaller reach before the vaccine finally was created. With literally billions of people to study, and every government in the world highly motivated to find solutions, I am optimistic that we will figure this out, and sooner than later.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2020 21:51:06 GMT -8
Yes, there are reasons to be optimistic because of the priority that is being assigned to a vaccine for this coronavirus. I hope you are right. I think that, long before a vaccine is ready, the tide of opinion will turn towards letting businesses open fully and letting people take their chances with the virus. People are already getting antsy. Sports and schools will remain shut down, however, until a vaccine is fully deployed.
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Post by beavershoopsfan on Apr 25, 2020 21:52:32 GMT -8
Beaverstever's post above helped me feel better about a brighter future coming sooner than some are suggesting. Thank you for that.
Time is of the essence as the entire world moves scientific discovery further with each passing day in an attempt to eradicate an insidious killer. Every day I see the CNN death counts mount for the US and the world I am reminded of why the social distancing measures are in place.
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Post by beaveragain on Apr 25, 2020 22:03:20 GMT -8
In the 2017-18 flu season, there were about 45 million cases in the USA, 810000 hospitalizations, and 61000 deaths. And that's WITH a lot of people having gotten vaccinated against the flu. Closer to 80,000 (estimated)80,000 deaths was the estimate, 61,000 was the actual.
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Post by beaveragain on Apr 25, 2020 22:13:11 GMT -8
Good news and bad news.
Good news- Because of the structure of Covid-19 it appears that it will not change like the common cold. So if a vaccine is developed it can be effectively exterminated.
Bad news- Some viruses have a much worse effect on the 2nd go around. So countries like Sweden who are actively working on herd immunity could be in for a really bad time next fall.
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Post by beaverstever on Apr 26, 2020 7:55:33 GMT -8
Good news and bad news. Good news- Because of the structure of Covid-19 it appears that it will not change like the common cold. So if a vaccine is developed it can be effectively exterminated. Bad news- Some viruses have a much worse effect on the 2nd go around. So countries like Sweden who are actively working on herd immunity could be in for a really bad time next fall. On your bad news, I'm curious where the idea that Sweden could be worse off in a second wave. I'm unaware of any history of having a population with antibodies would cause any worse problems. The 2nd Wave concern that I'm aware of is around a) herd immunity not being sufficiently in place and thus not react properly, or b) the herd immunity not being effective due to the virus evolving sufficiently. The most logical outcome based on other diseases is that it will provide a lot of protection. In reality, all countries would have gone the route Sweden if they had the same health care capacity to deal with it, a relatively low population containing underlying health conditions and a society that generally follows government guidance (The US unfortunately has none of those). In either case, Sweden will be at worst in the same position as everybody else, and likely better off - this likely plays out for them like being exposed to a disease after you are well past due for the booster shot - you still get some benefit, it's just not complete protection. And I would put the US in this category - we are headed for herd immunity faster than many countries simply because culturally we don't like following rules relative to many others - ironically, this could pay off in the long term (albeit with a heavy near-term cost in lives). Additionally, the 2nd wave with viruses is usually due to seasonality. Covid-19 has not seen much of a seasonal variation, so what tends to cause 2nd waves may not even be much in play. Bottom line, it's easy to become pessimistic due to a) the government needing to spread fear to motivate needed action and b) media leveraging fear to draw attention their way. In turn, it's taking a heavy toll on our mental health. I don't blame either of them for the approach, but it also means we need to understand it for what it is - intended to motivate by fear, and as a result, what plays out in reality will very likely look much more optimistic - in retrospect. I'm not suggesting that should change our behaviors in terms of what we're asked to do to help protect society, I'm just suggesting that the optimistic outcomes don't work well coming from either of these sources, but for our own emotional health, should get the majority of our own personal mindshare.
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Post by shelby on Apr 26, 2020 8:26:45 GMT -8
I am 100% behind compliance. However, the target or goals just seem to keep moving further away from any resolution point . The latest, for me, was that the antibody tests are not useful - because 1) the tests themselves have poor reliability and 2) there are no guarantees that a person with antibodies cannot be infected again. Yet, the best looking path towards a treatment was , at the same time, described as using recovered patients blood ( supposedly with the requisite antibodies) to save a very sick person ( several studies ongoing - at least 3). Top this off with the statements that the immunity, if it can be effective , has no timeline for when the efficacy starts to decline or go away. I assume that means that 'whatever it is' you will now be getting ( minimum ), annual flu shots and a separate COVID shot . But, if ( and it probably will ) it mutates - you robably now have an additional pandemic ( maybe), to now deal with ! So, it 'appears' , at this point - that we may be battling new viruses for a few seasons, until science can actually come up with a virucide that can mitigate any current and emerging virus. Look at antibiotics , as an example. You isolate the bacteria ( gram negative or gram positive ), and then you select the antibiotic that works best against that class and specific pathogen . Easier because all bacteria are known and can be identified ( that we know ) , and be treated . Hopefully, we can get there with any future virus! But ? Again, the finish line keeps moving in more directions that seem to defy previous understanding and experience . This would also help us against any future potential pandemic threats ! Wishful thinking, at this point !
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Post by beaveragain on Apr 26, 2020 9:26:16 GMT -8
The problem with the 2nd wave of a virus is that after the body has produced antibodies the first time it can go into hyper production the second time. So the first wave people with good immune systems do well, but in the second wave those with good immune systems have a higher death rate due to their body basically attacking itself. I believe this is how the Spanish flu worked? But I might be getting things confused. Been a while since I studied such.
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Post by pitbeavs on Apr 26, 2020 9:45:57 GMT -8
The problem is that these projections assume that no states lift their social distancing policies. Red state governors are lifting them. We will know if those efforts are wise in about two weeks. Additionally, South Korea announced -- a couple of weeks ago -- that they are experiencing re-infections. So we're going to have to know about how long recoverees retain their immunity before -- in my opinion -- we begin lifting those restrictions. It may be that we wait for either a cure or a vaccine before we normalize.
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rafer
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Post by rafer on Apr 26, 2020 9:53:00 GMT -8
The problem with the 2nd wave of a virus is that after the body has produced antibodies the first time it can go into hyper production the second time. So the first wave people with good immune systems do well, but in the second wave those with good immune systems have a higher death rate due to their body basically attacking itself. I believe this is how the Spanish flu worked? But I might be getting things confused. Been a while since I studied such. Oh oh, you called it the "Spanish" flu!!!
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Post by beaveroracle on Apr 26, 2020 10:00:23 GMT -8
Personally, I continue to believe there are reasons to be optimistic that we will have the pandemic under sufficient control to see a resumption of on-campus operations, including athletic competitions, by Fall. This article describes well what will need to be done in colleges: www.nytimes.com/2020/04/26/opinion/coronavirus-colleges-universities.html?smid=tw-shareIn a nutshell, test, trace, and separate. Once the pandemic is brought under reasonable control, presumably by this summer, we do have the knowledge and the time to prepare to keep re-emergence under control. Leadership is the big question mark. Also, it seems pretty clear that the case fatality rate for Covid-19 has been over-estimated due to the substantial number of asymptomatic or mild symptom cases that do not get tested. In closed populations like the Princess cruise ship and certain prisons, where testing was thorough, there were high percentages of asymptomatic persons who had the virus. That is not to say I think Covid-19 is not a major concern. It is a very dangerous virus. Just not as dangerous, I believe, as many people originally estimated. There will be tremendous pressure to take reasonable steps back to toward normality. Hopefully, we do it right. That may require some sacrifice of individual liberties (e.g. mandatory contact tracing, mandatory wearing of masks in public to keep the reproduction number low, etc.). But the economic and societal pressures to re-engage normal operations will be strong and we have the tools and knowledge on how to do so.
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Post by beavershoopsfan on Apr 26, 2020 10:20:33 GMT -8
With 54,573 confirmed deaths and 954,182 confirmed cases in the US as of today according to data from John Hopkins, the case fatality rate of 5.72% is clearly artificially high based upon our common understanding that far more than a million American either have or have had the virus.
The scary part of the CFR calculation is that the CFR has continued to rise in this country despite the fact that the number of tests conducted in the US is now above 5 million. We simply haven't been able to test quickly enough in our country to lower the CFR based upon the number of people who are passing away each day.
What should we assume in making the denominator assumption for the US in a CFR estimate? Should we assume that 20% or 66 million Americans have had or have the virus?
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Post by beaveragain on Apr 26, 2020 10:36:22 GMT -8
The problem with the 2nd wave of a virus is that after the body has produced antibodies the first time it can go into hyper production the second time. So the first wave people with good immune systems do well, but in the second wave those with good immune systems have a higher death rate due to their body basically attacking itself. I believe this is how the Spanish flu worked? But I might be getting things confused. Been a while since I studied such. Oh oh, you called it the "Spanish" flu!!! Sorry, the Kansas flu.
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