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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Jan 19, 2020 16:48:30 GMT -8
Appears we have low expectations. Why not invest in program.? I think mediocrity which we have been since the Early 90’s would be long enough. We talk about the past a lot,but we seem mired in it. Tinkle is not the answer.All the Coaches Son’s are not as well. Who will transfer out due to lack of playing time? I am thinking it may happen on Women’s team as well. When you say "Why not invest in the program?" can you put a dollar amount on that? How much? OSU would be on the hook for 8+Million to can him at the end of the season, and I'd figure to get a seasoned D1 coach with a better record than he has would probably cost another 2.7-3 million a year at a minimum. Perhaps spending an extra 100k or two on recruiting might be wiser? Maybe an extra million or two or three on building the football program for a couple years to where it brings in more season tix and donations and can help carry spending more on the basketball program than we now do? Is firing always the answer? Just sounds expensive to me unless the program is truly doing poorly. Tied for 4th in the Pac 12 last season and this season has yet to play out. What investment do you want and how much is it going to cost?
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 19, 2020 18:08:10 GMT -8
The problem is Tinkle is probably the 12th best coach in league. A very poor recruiter and has the same non successful staff he had when he got here. And Barnes gives a 2.1 million extension for a below 500 record playing the worst SOS of power 5 schools. Something has to change. Washington State has played a softer schedule and has a worse record against it. Notre Dame has played a softer schedule and has a worse record against it. Tinkle is better than Bobby Hurley. If you switch the pair, Tinkle is coaching in the Tourney, and Hurley is 0-18. Three of the coaches are brand new. If you know that you have seen enough to rank any of the three ahead of Tinkle in recruiting without any of the three participating in a full year of recruiting, my hat's off to you, sir. I would humbly posit that you are 100% wrong and that my head is cold. I think that you could credibly argue that Tinkle is in the bottom half. I would disagree, and say that he has bottom half support. But at least you wouldn't be uninformedly talking out of your a$$. And because I hate negative posts like the one above, here is a picture of some rocks with words on them: Hurley is a dick... but far better "coach" than WT. He's got a better pedigree and his recruiting is far superior. His ASU teams has improved in Pac12 play each year... 5-13, 7-11, 8-10, 12-6. I believe he's 5-2 vs WT teams head to head AND TWO STRAIGHT DANCE APPEARANCES. All with no relatives needed. Still amazes me how people can defend the mediocrity if 5.5 years of under .500 overall playing weak NC schedules and what 21 or 22 games under .500 in Pac12 play? DA, Hurley aren't quality guys to many... but far better coaches. UW has better. WSU had supposedly nothing going and appears that staff has some chops. SC has a quality guy. UCLA has one, but tough transition to his style. AZ has a very good one, but also questionable Morales. Cal's new guy is still unknown, but watching them three times earlier they play above their talent level. Utah and Buffs both have better coaches. So, as far as pure coaching acumen WT is 8th at best? As low as 10th? But, I do enjoy the excuses and their creativity!
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Post by Judge Smails on Jan 19, 2020 18:26:46 GMT -8
Washington State has played a softer schedule and has a worse record against it. Notre Dame has played a softer schedule and has a worse record against it. Tinkle is better than Bobby Hurley. If you switch the pair, Tinkle is coaching in the Tourney, and Hurley is 0-18. Three of the coaches are brand new. If you know that you have seen enough to rank any of the three ahead of Tinkle in recruiting without any of the three participating in a full year of recruiting, my hat's off to you, sir. I would humbly posit that you are 100% wrong and that my head is cold. I think that you could credibly argue that Tinkle is in the bottom half. I would disagree, and say that he has bottom half support. But at least you wouldn't be uninformedly talking out of your a$$. And because I hate negative posts like the one above, here is a picture of some rocks with words on them: Hurley is a dick... but far better "coach" than WT. He's got a better pedigree and his recruiting is far superior. His ASU teams has improved in Pac12 play each year... 5-13, 7-11, 8-10, 12-6. I believe he's 5-2 vs WT teams head to head AND TWO STRAIGHT DANCE APPEARANCES. All with no relatives needed. Still amazes me how people can defend the mediocrity if 5.5 years of under .500 overall playing weak NC schedules and what 21 or 22 games under .500 in Pac12 play? DA, Hurley aren't quality guys to many... but far better coaches. UW has better. WSU had supposedly nothing going and appears that staff has some chops. SC has a quality guy. UCLA has one, but tough transition to his style. AZ has a very good one, but also questionable Morales. Cal's new guy is still unknown, but watching them three times earlier they play above their talent level. Utah and Buffs both have better coaches. So, as far as pure coaching acumen WT is 8th at best? As low as 10th? But, I do enjoy the excuses and their creativity! I don’t think Miller paid for a Morales, but maybe.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Jan 20, 2020 9:32:15 GMT -8
Washington State has played a softer schedule and has a worse record against it. Notre Dame has played a softer schedule and has a worse record against it. Tinkle is better than Bobby Hurley. If you switch the pair, Tinkle is coaching in the Tourney, and Hurley is 0-18. Three of the coaches are brand new. If you know that you have seen enough to rank any of the three ahead of Tinkle in recruiting without any of the three participating in a full year of recruiting, my hat's off to you, sir. I would humbly posit that you are 100% wrong and that my head is cold. I think that you could credibly argue that Tinkle is in the bottom half. I would disagree, and say that he has bottom half support. But at least you wouldn't be uninformedly talking out of your a$$. And because I hate negative posts like the one above, here is a picture of some rocks with words on them: Hurley is a dick... but far better "coach" than WT. He's got a better pedigree and his recruiting is far superior. His ASU teams has improved in Pac12 play each year... 5-13, 7-11, 8-10, 12-6. I believe he's 5-2 vs WT teams head to head AND TWO STRAIGHT DANCE APPEARANCES. All with no relatives needed. Still amazes me how people can defend the mediocrity if 5.5 years of under .500 overall playing weak NC schedules and what 21 or 22 games under .500 in Pac12 play? DA, Hurley aren't quality guys to many... but far better coaches. UW has better. WSU had supposedly nothing going and appears that staff has some chops. SC has a quality guy. UCLA has one, but tough transition to his style. AZ has a very good one, but also questionable Morales. Cal's new guy is still unknown, but watching them three times earlier they play above their talent level. Utah and Buffs both have better coaches. So, as far as pure coaching acumen WT is 8th at best? As low as 10th? But, I do enjoy the excuses and their creativity! Then again, Hurley inherited a team which made a tournament in 6 of the previous 8 years. You may think 24 years of mediocrity or flat out bad play is easy to overcome, but show us coaches that have done it. I’m not sure if OSU’s situation is unique, but something has been long term bad here.
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Post by osubeaver2018 on Jan 20, 2020 10:35:59 GMT -8
Hurley is a dick... but far better "coach" than WT. He's got a better pedigree and his recruiting is far superior. His ASU teams has improved in Pac12 play each year... 5-13, 7-11, 8-10, 12-6. I believe he's 5-2 vs WT teams head to head AND TWO STRAIGHT DANCE APPEARANCES. All with no relatives needed. Still amazes me how people can defend the mediocrity if 5.5 years of under .500 overall playing weak NC schedules and what 21 or 22 games under .500 in Pac12 play? DA, Hurley aren't quality guys to many... but far better coaches. UW has better. WSU had supposedly nothing going and appears that staff has some chops. SC has a quality guy. UCLA has one, but tough transition to his style. AZ has a very good one, but also questionable Morales. Cal's new guy is still unknown, but watching them three times earlier they play above their talent level. Utah and Buffs both have better coaches. So, as far as pure coaching acumen WT is 8th at best? As low as 10th? But, I do enjoy the excuses and their creativity! Then again, Hurley inherited a team which made a tournament in 6 of the previous 8 years. You may think 24 years of mediocrity or flat out bad play is easy to overcome, but show us coaches that have done it. I’m not sure if OSU’s situation is unique, but something has been long term bad here. Northwestern is the only other P5 basketball program that I can think of that has had as much long-term futility as OSU basketball. They had their first NCAA tournament appearance ever in 2017 and are now along with Nebraska one of the two bottom teams in the Big Ten. Not sure if they still have the same coach that took them to the tournament then or not but they also appear to have been unable to sustain that success they saw that season either. EDIT: NW does still have the same coach, Chris Collins.
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Post by beaverinohio on Jan 20, 2020 13:18:10 GMT -8
Then again, Hurley inherited a team which made a tournament in 6 of the previous 8 years. You may think 24 years of mediocrity or flat out bad play is easy to overcome, but show us coaches that have done it. I’m not sure if OSU’s situation is unique, but something has been long term bad here. Northwestern is the only other P5 basketball program that I can think of that has had as much long-term futility as OSU basketball. They had their first NCAA tournament appearance ever in 2017 and are now along with Nebraska one of the two bottom teams in the Big Ten. Not sure if they still have the same coach that took them to the tournament then or not but they also appear to have been unable to sustain that success they saw that season either. EDIT: NW does still have the same coach, Chris Collins. What is sad is since 2009, the Beavs have gone to one tourney and no NITs. In that same time span, Northwestern has been to the one tourney and 4 NITs. Now OSU did go to 4 CBIs in that time frame (and won it in 2009). Worse than NW has been Rutgers -- no NCAA since 1991 and no NIT since 2006. But they are actually ranked right now, and Steve Pikiell has them playing some good basketball. Penn St. is probably a pretty good comp to OSU of recent years too. Since 2009, they've got 1 NCAA appearance, 2 NIT (won it both times) and 1 CBI. PSU is also playing some pretty good basketball this year with wins over 3 ranked teams thus far.
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 20, 2020 13:31:58 GMT -8
Northwestern is the only other P5 basketball program that I can think of that has had as much long-term futility as OSU basketball. They had their first NCAA tournament appearance ever in 2017 and are now along with Nebraska one of the two bottom teams in the Big Ten. Not sure if they still have the same coach that took them to the tournament then or not but they also appear to have been unable to sustain that success they saw that season either. EDIT: NW does still have the same coach, Chris Collins. What is sad is since 2009, the Beavs have gone to one tourney and no NITs. In that same time span, Northwestern has been to the one tourney and 4 NITs. Now OSU did go to 4 CBIs in that time frame (and won it in 2009). Worse than NW has been Rutgers -- no NCAA since 1991 and no NIT since 2006. But they are actually ranked right now, and Steve Pikiell has them playing some good basketball. Penn St. is probably a pretty good comp to OSU of recent years too. Since 2009, they've got 1 NCAA appearance, 2 NIT (won it both times) and 1 CBI. PSU is also playing some pretty good basketball this year with wins over 3 ranked teams thus far. But... but... they are in the east... easier to recruit to... play patsies... league is terrible... There has to be some reason that OSU is flailing?? Give it time someone will find excuses... Lol
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Post by maximumbeaver on Jan 20, 2020 13:57:34 GMT -8
Then again, Hurley inherited a team which made a tournament in 6 of the previous 8 years. You may think 24 years of mediocrity or flat out bad play is easy to overcome, but show us coaches that have done it. I’m not sure if OSU’s situation is unique, but something has been long term bad here. Northwestern is the only other P5 basketball program that I can think of that has had as much long-term futility as OSU basketball. They had their first NCAA tournament appearance ever in 2017 and are now along with Nebraska one of the two bottom teams in the Big Ten. Not sure if they still have the same coach that took them to the tournament then or not but they also appear to have been unable to sustain that success they saw that season either. EDIT: NW does still have the same coach, Chris Collins. 15,000+ fans were at Nebraska’s last home game.
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Post by osubeaver2018 on Jan 20, 2020 14:11:28 GMT -8
Northwestern is the only other P5 basketball program that I can think of that has had as much long-term futility as OSU basketball. They had their first NCAA tournament appearance ever in 2017 and are now along with Nebraska one of the two bottom teams in the Big Ten. Not sure if they still have the same coach that took them to the tournament then or not but they also appear to have been unable to sustain that success they saw that season either. EDIT: NW does still have the same coach, Chris Collins. 15,000+ fans were at Nebraska’s last home game. We're lucky to get 15,000 fans at FOUR games
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 20, 2020 20:58:26 GMT -8
What is sad is since 2009, the Beavs have gone to one tourney and no NITs. In that same time span, Northwestern has been to the one tourney and 4 NITs. Now OSU did go to 4 CBIs in that time frame (and won it in 2009). Worse than NW has been Rutgers -- no NCAA since 1991 and no NIT since 2006. But they are actually ranked right now, and Steve Pikiell has them playing some good basketball. Penn St. is probably a pretty good comp to OSU of recent years too. Since 2009, they've got 1 NCAA appearance, 2 NIT (won it both times) and 1 CBI. PSU is also playing some pretty good basketball this year with wins over 3 ranked teams thus far. But... but... they are in the east... easier to recruit to... play patsies... league is terrible... There has to be some reason that OSU is flailing?? Give it time someone will find excuses... Lol beaverinohio Oregon State is flailing, because the Athletic Department is a joke and has been since Mitch Barnhart left. As for the stated examples, I love when people make my argument for me. It makes my life easier. Since 1969, Northwestern has been invited to the NIT each time but once that it has finished with a winning record. The Wildcats' four invites mentioned in Ohio's post were with a 7-11 or an 8-10 conference record each time. Northwestern finished 9th in an 11-team Big Ten in 2009, lost to #8 Minnesota by 13 in Indianapolis, and was invited to the NIT, losing to Tulsa by 9. Northwestern finished 7th in an 11-team Big Ten in 2010, beat #10 Indiana, lost to #2 Purdue by 8, and was invited to the NIT, losing to Rhode Island by 12. Northwestern finished 8th in an 11-team Big Ten in 2011, beat #9 Minnesota, lost to #1 Ohio State by six, and was invited to the NIT. The Wildcats beat Milwaukee at home and Boston College before dropping a game to Washington State (Pac-12 #6). Northwestern finished 7th in a 12-team Big Ten in 2012, lost to #10 Minnesota in Indianapolis by seven, and was invited to the NIT. The Wildcats beat Akron at home before losing to Washington (Pac-12 Champions, who ridiculously was not invited to the Tournament, fresh off their Pac-12 Tournament loss to Oregon State) by 21. Northwestern started the following season 13-10 before dropping nine straight. Bill Carmody was fired and replaced with Collins. Oregon State under Tinkle has a better conference winning percentage than Northwestern under Collins. Collins has been at Northwestern an additional year and has an equal number of Tourney appearances (one) and an equal number of NIT appearances (zero). Northwestern finished 14th in the 14-team Big Ten last year, and is currently 14th in the 14-team Big Ten this year. If Oregon State was in the Big Ten, the Beavers would have made at least three NIT appearances, at least two under Tinkle. Rutgers is 5-2 on the season. The Knights won the four conference home games that they have played and beat football-first Nebraska in Lincoln. Otherwise, two road games, and two losses. Tinkle has a better conference and overall record at Oregon State than Pikiell has at Rutgers. Penn State was a Sweet Sixteen team earlier this century. Oregon State has not been a Sweet Sixteen team (officially) in my lifetime (and unofficially since 1982). Wayne Tinkle has a better conference record than Pat Chambers does. Chambers' conference and overall record are each better than Ed DeChellis' conference and overall record, who Chambers replaced. DeChellis led Penn State to an NIT berth with a 10-8 conference record. Penn State beat George Mason at home in overtime followed by Rhode Island. Penn State went down to Gainesville and beat Florida. Penn State then played what amounted to home games against Notre Dame and Baylor to clinch an NIT Championship. In DeChellis' last year, Penn State went 9-9 and 16-13 and finished sixth. They beat #11 Indiana and then upset Wisconsin 36-33. They then beat #7 Michigan State by 13 before dropping the Big Ten Championship Game by 11 against #1 Ohio State. Penn State was given a #10 seed in the Tournament and lost to Temple in Tucson. DeChellis quit Penn State to coach at Navy and was replaced by Chambers. Chambers coached Penn State to consecutive 12th-place finishes in the 12-team Big Ten. In year three, Penn State went 6-12 and 15-17 and finished tenth, losing to Minnesota in the first round of the Big Ten Tournament. Penn State beat Hampton by four at home before losing to Sienna on the road. Penn State finished 13th, 10th, and 13th in the 14-team Big Ten over the next three years before finishing seventh in the 14-team Big Ten. Penn State beat #10 Northwestern and then upset #2 Ohio State by a point before being bounced by #3 Purdue by eight, each game basically amounting to a home game. Penn State beat #5 Temple at home before upsetting #1 Notre Dame and #2 Marquette en route to NYC. Penn State beat Mississippi State and Utah in two games that were basically home games. Penn State followed that up by finishing 10th and being bounced by five by #7 Minnesota. Penn State is currently tied for ninth with Purdue. If any of these three teams is "successful," then Tinkle is "successful" as well. In fact, he is more successful, especially considering what little he has to work with. At a minimum, using these three examples, unless Oregon State really tanks, and depending upon the example cited, Tinkle should at least get another 1, 3, 4, or 8 years.
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Post by beaverinohio on Jan 21, 2020 9:35:59 GMT -8
Wilky,
To be honest, I'm not sure what your argument is that I helped you make. I was responding to someone else's post that mentioned Northwestern as having the same type of futility as OSU. I then threw out Rutgers and Penn St. as two other schools in B1G that have had a pretty poor run also. I only mentioned that those two schools are having pretty good seasons this year because that seems to go against them have run of futility. I wasn't comparing either coach to WT (though in a later post in another thread I do make the case that Pikiell seems to have Rutgers going in the right direction and his team has an identity. I don't see an upward trajectory for the OSU program currently and don't see an identity. I personally think WT has the program in a better play than when he arrived. He has laid a solid foundation. And I have never advocated for him to be fired after this year, and think he has earned at least another year and stated (What Better Coach Could Beavs Get - page 5) that I think he will likely get at least two. Again, I just question with what we've seen so far with the quality of some of the players WT has had if anyone should think the Beavs will take a step forward under him and one could argue that him getting the team to 1 NCAA and 1 NIT (still holding out hope they steady the ship and earn an invite this year) in the next six years is a stretch.
So to get back to the topic of the thread, what I see as realistic expectations in general over a 6 year period 1 NCAA and 2 NIT invites (really think 2 NCAA and 1 NIT isn't completely unreasonable). Then in the 3 years when don't go to a tourney, a game or so around .500 in conference in two of those years and allow for one bad year. Having said that, the type of bad year that the Beavers had in WT's third year is unacceptable. Yes, I know they lost Tres, but 5 total wins and 1 in conference with losses to teams like Savannah St. and Portland. Sorry, but WT still had some talent on that team and has to be able to get them to play better than that. I think they should have been able to win 3-5 conf. games and at least 10 games over all. That's still a crappy season, but at least it shows that team had a little fight and/or WT as a good coach was able to scheme his way to some wins.
I'd also say that not all expectations are created equally. By that I mean, there should be expectations for each year, and last year's team under performed as far as I'm concerned. I think that team should have been able to get into the tournament and at worse get an NIT invite. I'm guessing that your use of the phrase "NIT-quality team" in talking about your expectations in an earlier post means you think they should have gotten into NIT last year. And I'm sure it was close, but they didn't. And I'm guessing going losing to 5 teams over the course of the season ranked lower than them in NET (including #136 Kent St. at home), and going 1-4 in last 5 and 2-5 in last 7 games down the stretch had everything to do with that. Win one of those down the stretch and they're likely in NIT. Win two and they might have snuck into the NCAA. They didn't and thus really don't have any to blame but themselves. Also, your statement "If Oregon State was in the Big Ten, the Beavers would have made at least three NIT appearances, at least two under Tinkle," is silly. How what Northwestern did in 2009, 2010, 2011 and any other years you mentioned when they received invite to NIT has anything to do with any of the teams Tinkle has coached is beyond me. I guess you're lamenting that the B1G is considered a better conference overall most years than the Pac-12. And I'd say most years, top to bottom that is true. So you can't just plop the Beavers' Pac-12 record into the B1G standings and say, hey, look, Oregon St. would have gotten into NIT. That record wasn't achieved against a B1G conference slate.
And to bring things full circle, I never said those three teams were successful. Poster that I responded to said Northwestern was only team he could think of that had same futility as Oregon St., and I mentioned two others in B1G that have had a pretty rough go of it too.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Jan 21, 2020 9:45:59 GMT -8
There is far, far more to an intercollegiate athletic program than men's basketball.
So, while Northwestern's MBB has been MARGINALLY more successful than ours,
How many College World Series has Northwestern won? How many CWSs has it been to? How many NCAA tournaments has it played in?
How many women's basketball Final Fours, NCAAs, Sweet 16s, etc., has Northwestern advanced to?
How many softball World Series? How many softball NCAAs? (They have a decent program, I think).
How many gymnastics NCAAs and Super Sixes?
How many bowl games has Northwestern won since 2000?
The best program at Northwestern is women's lacrosse, clearly a niche sport.
Oregon State is flailing, because the Athletic Department is a joke and has been since Mitch Barnhart left.
That's your opinion. Compared to Northwestern, we clearly aren't.
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 21, 2020 10:37:07 GMT -8
There is far, far more to an intercollegiate athletic program than men's basketball. So, while Northwestern's MBB has been MARGINALLY more successful than ours, How many College World Series has Northwestern won? How many CWSs has it been to? How many NCAA tournaments has it played in? How many women's basketball Final Fours, NCAAs, Sweet 16s, etc., has Northwestern advanced to? How many softball World Series? How many softball NCAAs? (They have a decent program, I think). How many gymnastics NCAAs and Super Sixes? How many bowl games has Northwestern won since 2000? The best program at Northwestern is women's lacrosse, clearly a niche sport. Oregon State is flailing, because the Athletic Department is a joke and has been since Mitch Barnhart left.That's your opinion. Compared to Northwestern, we clearly aren't. Really don't care about all the school to school comparisons as it's not valid. But, lacrosse is far from niche. Last time I looked there were nearly double the schools with D1 lacrosse vs gymnastics. With far more members per team. But, again one reason why comparing schools from different areas is truly folly. Areas have varied interests and histories, not to mention vested boosters/$.
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Post by nabeav on Jan 21, 2020 11:45:17 GMT -8
The top expectation is: At least NIT every year
Exactly one team in the Pac-12 has met our "realistic" expectations in each of the last six years.
Oregon.
That's the list.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 21, 2020 12:50:21 GMT -8
There is far, far more to an intercollegiate athletic program than men's basketball. So, while Northwestern's MBB has been MARGINALLY more successful than ours, How many College World Series has Northwestern won? How many CWSs has it been to? How many NCAA tournaments has it played in? How many women's basketball Final Fours, NCAAs, Sweet 16s, etc., has Northwestern advanced to? How many softball World Series? How many softball NCAAs? (They have a decent program, I think). How many gymnastics NCAAs and Super Sixes? How many bowl games has Northwestern won since 2000? The best program at Northwestern is women's lacrosse, clearly a niche sport. Oregon State is flailing, because the Athletic Department is a joke and has been since Mitch Barnhart left.That's your opinion. Compared to Northwestern, we clearly aren't. Northwestern does not have a gymnastics team. Northwestern has ranked higher in the Directors' Cup for each of the past 15 years. Northwestern has generally superior women's programs, save basketball. Football? We all live in this glass house. Quit throwing stones! Fun fact, even with Smitty's breakout 2019 campaign, Oregon State is tied for the 5th-losingest football team in all of FBS football over the past six seasons. Northwestern is tied for 52nd-winningest over the same time period. Bottom Six: 1. Kansas 12-60 .167
2. Connecticut 17-56 .2333. Massachusetts 17-55 .236 4. UTEP 18-55 .247 5. Kent State 19-53 .263 5. Oregon State 19-53 .263
The rest of the century:
37. Oregon State 104-71 .594 60. Northewestern 89-84 .514
BDC decided that winning 59% of games was not enough and started to flail, chasing off Langs, precipitating the complete destruction of the program in 2017 under GAG.
Our Athletic Department is a joke.
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