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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Apr 16, 2019 14:44:36 GMT -8
We are not talking about undergraduate transfers. So why did you even bring that up? The only reason you can grad transfer is for academic reasons. Therefore it is incumbent on the school you are transferring to to give you the best opportunity to earn your MA. The best way for that to happen is to guarantee the scholarship for two years, the normal time it takes to complete an MA. How is that punishing the second school? If the athlete drops out of his MA program after completing his eligibility, he has clearly misused the process in the first place. And it should be incumbent on the incoming school to do their due diligence and make sure the incoming athlete actually plans to attend class/get an MA and live up to the terms of his graduate transfer. Of course, as a uo fan I can see why you are taking the approach you take, seeing the number of free-agent transfers you've had in football and basketball over the past 7-8 years. They all got a bunch of free Nike s%#t but none of them left with an MA degree, right? I brought up undergraduates because they can leave school any time they want with no repercussions to the school - and certainly no loss of scholarships to offer to other student-athletes. >>>>>>>>>> Again, the topic has nothing whatsoever to do with undergraduate transfers. Why do you keep bringing this up?
The proposal in the post regarding student-athletes that leave early from graduate school is to punish the school with a loss of scholarship available for any future student-athlete. >>>>>>> The school is not being "punished." It is merely being required to keep the scholarship open long enough for the grad transfer to complete his/her MA program. Which is, of course, the reason grad transfers exist (wink wink nudge nudge).
Second, a student-athlete that transfers to another school as a graduate student has their degree. They have completed their academic requirements for the school where they were given an athletic scholarship. Why should that athlete be penalized in any way for seeking additional education and an opportunity to play at any school? What exactly are you trying to accomplish with a negative incentive for a student to pursue any additional education - even if they do not get a degree? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Who is punishing the athlete? He/she still can transfer into a grad program. This just insures he/she will have a scholarship to complete his/her graduate work, which AGAIN is the sole criteria for a graduate transfer, although this process is widely abused. It actually protects the student from having his graduate scholarship lifted once he/she has completed their eligibility by eliminating the benefit the school would receive by yanking it.
Yes, some grad transfers use their last year of eligibility to try to move their athletic career forward. They are still required to attend school - so they are still getting at least some education. How is that WORSE than simply forgoing the education opportunity and playing in the G-league or D-league or overseas? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, the athlete is not being punished one iota. The opportunity is there. And going to "grad school" for one term, and taking six hours of some phonied-up graduate program, like Vernon Adams did, is hardly furthering his education. His graduate program was football. How many of uo's football/basketball grad transfers actually leave uo with an MA?
There are extreme examples of motivated individuals that PLAN to do something other than professional sports for their career that still want to play through all of their college eligibility. What is the purpose to deny those athletes that opportunity? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, the athlete is not being punished one iota. No one is being denied. It just makes the school accountable to the athlete for two years, the normal time needed to earn an MA, which is the reason the grad transfer program exists.
Wait, you're telling me Vernon Adams, Mike Moser, and the legion of other grad transfers who came to uo with dubious undergraduate academic records compared to their graduate school peers did not come to Eugene intending to earn their MA, that they were recruited as stopgap positional solutions by the football and basketball teams? I'm shocked! |
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Apr 16, 2019 16:13:15 GMT -8
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Post by shelby on Apr 16, 2019 16:13:15 GMT -8
You definitely served up some serious fact based duck doo doo. However, IF he actually attended the school, you may have to rinse and repeat. That ‘school’ is not famous for educational expertise and the students that do go through the graduation experience immediately get an Uber lift to Nike, where they are on probation - for minimum wage, until they prove they can walk and chew gum at the same time. Actually a much higher bar at Nike than at the J.C. in spewgene.
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Post by Werebeaver on Apr 16, 2019 16:34:49 GMT -8
I brought up undergraduates because they can leave school any time they want with no repercussions to the school - and certainly no loss of scholarships to offer to other student-athletes. >>>>>>>>>> Again, the topic has nothing whatsoever to do with undergraduate transfers. Why do you keep bringing this up?
The proposal in the post regarding student-athletes that leave early from graduate school is to punish the school with a loss of scholarship available for any future student-athlete. >>>>>>> The school is not being "punished." It is merely being required to keep the scholarship open long enough for the grad transfer to complete his/her MA program. Which is, of course, the reason grad transfers exist (wink wink nudge nudge).
Second, a student-athlete that transfers to another school as a graduate student has their degree. They have completed their academic requirements for the school where they were given an athletic scholarship. Why should that athlete be penalized in any way for seeking additional education and an opportunity to play at any school? What exactly are you trying to accomplish with a negative incentive for a student to pursue any additional education - even if they do not get a degree? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Who is punishing the athlete? He/she still can transfer into a grad program. This just insures he/she will have a scholarship to complete his/her graduate work, which AGAIN is the sole criteria for a graduate transfer, although this process is widely abused. It actually protects the student from having his graduate scholarship lifted once he/she has completed their eligibility by eliminating the benefit the school would receive by yanking it.
Yes, some grad transfers use their last year of eligibility to try to move their athletic career forward. They are still required to attend school - so they are still getting at least some education. How is that WORSE than simply forgoing the education opportunity and playing in the G-league or D-league or overseas? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, the athlete is not being punished one iota. The opportunity is there. And going to "grad school" for one term, and taking six hours of some phonied-up graduate program, like Vernon Adams did, is hardly furthering his education. His graduate program was football. How many of uo's football/basketball grad transfers actually leave uo with an MA?
There are extreme examples of motivated individuals that PLAN to do something other than professional sports for their career that still want to play through all of their college eligibility. What is the purpose to deny those athletes that opportunity? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, the athlete is not being punished one iota. No one is being denied. It just makes the school accountable to the athlete for two years, the normal time needed to earn an MA, which is the reason the grad transfer program exists.
Wait, you're telling me Vernon Adams, Mike Moser, and the legion of other grad transfers who came to uo with dubious undergraduate academic records compared to their graduate school peers did not come to Eugene intending to earn their MA, that they were recruited as stopgap positional solutions by the football and basketball teams? I'm shocked! As I said in my previous post: "I think that is a GOOD thing. Whether it works competitively for or against OSU on the field is, to me at least, not important." |
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Post by green85 on Apr 17, 2019 10:43:51 GMT -8
I brought up undergraduates because they can leave school any time they want with no repercussions to the school - and certainly no loss of scholarships to offer to other student-athletes. >>>>>>>>>> Again, the topic has nothing whatsoever to do with undergraduate transfers. Why do you keep bringing this up?
The proposal in the post regarding student-athletes that leave early from graduate school is to punish the school with a loss of scholarship available for any future student-athlete. >>>>>>> The school is not being "punished." It is merely being required to keep the scholarship open long enough for the grad transfer to complete his/her MA program. Which is, of course, the reason grad transfers exist (wink wink nudge nudge).
Second, a student-athlete that transfers to another school as a graduate student has their degree. They have completed their academic requirements for the school where they were given an athletic scholarship. Why should that athlete be penalized in any way for seeking additional education and an opportunity to play at any school? What exactly are you trying to accomplish with a negative incentive for a student to pursue any additional education - even if they do not get a degree? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Who is punishing the athlete? He/she still can transfer into a grad program. This just insures he/she will have a scholarship to complete his/her graduate work, which AGAIN is the sole criteria for a graduate transfer, although this process is widely abused. It actually protects the student from having his graduate scholarship lifted once he/she has completed their eligibility by eliminating the benefit the school would receive by yanking it.
Yes, some grad transfers use their last year of eligibility to try to move their athletic career forward. They are still required to attend school - so they are still getting at least some education. How is that WORSE than simply forgoing the education opportunity and playing in the G-league or D-league or overseas? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, the athlete is not being punished one iota. The opportunity is there. And going to "grad school" for one term, and taking six hours of some phonied-up graduate program, like Vernon Adams did, is hardly furthering his education. His graduate program was football. How many of uo's football/basketball grad transfers actually leave uo with an MA?
There are extreme examples of motivated individuals that PLAN to do something other than professional sports for their career that still want to play through all of their college eligibility. What is the purpose to deny those athletes that opportunity? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, the athlete is not being punished one iota. No one is being denied. It just makes the school accountable to the athlete for two years, the normal time needed to earn an MA, which is the reason the grad transfer program exists.
Wait, you're telling me Vernon Adams, Mike Moser, and the legion of other grad transfers who came to uo with dubious undergraduate academic records compared to their graduate school peers did not come to Eugene intending to earn their MA, that they were recruited as stopgap positional solutions by the football and basketball teams? I'm shocked! If you don't bother to actually read the original post I quoted in my first post on the subject I can see how you would be confused. The school can offer an athletic scholarship to any student they wish. And the school can withdraw the scholarship under a variety of circumstances. The fact that a student-athlete CHOOSES to leave or end his participation in the sport for which he receives a scholarship ends the obligation for the school to continue to offer the free education. "Furthering your education" does not require a degree. Attending grad school does not guarantee a graduate degree to any student, athlete or not. A student-athlete that accepts a scholarship is NOT guaranteed a degree or the time it takes to earn a degree. The CRITERIA for a graduate transfer student-athlete at this time has NOTHING to do with actually earning the degree (EXACTLY the same as an undergraduate). The criteria for a student-athlete to remain eligible to participate in an NCAA sport is "progress towards a degree" ... which means taking classes of a type and quantity that would in fact move that student towards a degree in a reasonable timeline (as defined by the NCAA). There is no requirement for a school to guarantee the scholarship remain intact for that timeline. You are proposing that the school HAVE TO "keep the scholarship open" or committed for the entire period needed to complete the degree. But if the student LEAVES the school (for example pursues a job), I am reading your post to say the school cannot offer that scholarship to another student-athlete. Can you verify that is a correct understanding of your proposal? Because if that is what you suggest - with the intent that somehow protects the student - then I think you can see how that restriction would in fact punish the school by limiting athletic scholarships available due to a choice made by a student-athlete, right? I am not sure you read the content of one of my posts where I suggested that motivated student-athletes that leave school will still pursue their degree (undergraduate or graduate) either during their professional sports career or after the professional sports career is complete. But again, it would be ludicrous to suggest that a school pay for the education of a professional athlete that is earning more than enough money to pay for the schooling without assistance. So again there is no point in "holding the scholarship open" - except to limit the scholarships available because a student-athlete left before receiving a degree. I think the simplest question is this: If I graduate - I get my undergraduate degree - why is my next choice about where I go to school a point of contention? The simple answer is, you are being offered an athletic scholarship from an NCAA school. So, as long as I meet the requirements for eligibility - progress towards a degree in an NCAA approved timeline - what does it matter if I get my graduate degree or not? And if it does not matter if I actually acquire the degree, why would the school be limited in offering another athletic scholarship after I leave the school? BTW, I have yet to read about a student-athlete that entered graduate school that was prevented from completing their degree work to get their graduate degree - of course that leads folks to say "well that's the problem - the student-athlete finished their sports eligibility and left school before getting their degree". To which I reply, why is that a problem? If the student-athlete leaves school, they made the choice to leave school without the degree. |
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Apr 17, 2019 10:50:52 GMT -8
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Post by beaverwbb fan on Apr 17, 2019 10:50:52 GMT -8
Speaking of grad-transfers, Minyon Moore is down to Mississippi State, Baylor, and tsdtr.
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Post by beavs6 on Apr 17, 2019 11:00:19 GMT -8
If you don't bother to actually read the original post I quoted in my first post on the subject I can see how you would be confused. "The school can offer an athletic scholarship to any student they wish." Isn't this a problem with a few schools and uber-wealthy families currently being investigated. And don't give me it is just about admissions...athletes regularly get help with admissions. It really is more about the haves ($$$) and the have-nots. As stated before, if my school/athletic dept was one of the LARGEST haves ($$$) I wouldn't be concerned about the status quo at all. |
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Post by green85 on Apr 17, 2019 11:31:31 GMT -8
If you don't bother to actually read the original post I quoted in my first post on the subject I can see how you would be confused. "The school can offer an athletic scholarship to any student they wish." Isn't this a problem with a few schools and uber-wealthy families currently being investigated. And don't give me it is just about admissions...athletes regularly get help with admissions. It really is more about the haves ($$$) and the have-nots. As stated before, if my school/athletic dept was one of the LARGEST haves ($$$) I wouldn't be concerned about the status quo at all. My position on the subject is completely based on these facts: 1. The student-athlete has graduated and has their degree. 2. No one should tell that graduate where they can go in their pursuit of their career - either their career as a professional athlete or professional in some other field. I read your post as the clear indication of the intent of the original post I responded to ... you see graduate transfers in athletics as an advantage to some schools in athletic competition. And therefore you see that the next step in administrating the process is to find any way to reduce the chance that a student-athlete would make a choice based upon their athletic pursuit and that the school would not offer the scholarship based upon athletic pursuit. And the original post I responded to went so far as to suggest that the school should "lose" the athletic scholarship to offer to another student-athlete if the grad transfer left before completing their graduate degree. For me personally it has nothing to do with money or with the University of Oregon athletics. If U of O did not offer a scholarship to a another graduate transfer, I would not have a problem with that - even if it meant a competitive disadvantage. What I do not want to see is some type of limiting of the choices of a person that has successfully completed the work to receive an undergraduate degree - regardless as to whether they are an athlete or not. In the context of this thread we are talking only about athletes. In that context I cannot find any advantage to administrating the grad transfer program in such a fashion that it penalizes either the school or the student-athlete if the student does not pursue the graduate degree to completion. |
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Apr 17, 2019 15:05:21 GMT -8
Looks like the NCAA is going to approve the two-year mandatory scholarship count for grad transfers, unless they complete their degree. Good move. Also protects the mid-majors and smaller programs from deliberate poaching.
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Post by Werebeaver on Apr 17, 2019 15:25:01 GMT -8
Looks like the NCAA is going to approve the two-year mandatory scholarship count for grad transfers, unless they complete their degree. Good move. Also protects the mid-majors and smaller programs from deliberate poaching. Why do you consider it "poaching" rather than rewarding a S/A for academic achievement? Is it because you think the current rule works to OSU's disadvantage? Or is it based on a larger frame of reference? From a WBB standpoint it's not likely to discourage grad transfer movement. WBB squads are allowed 15 scholarships and most never exceed 12 or 13. Telling a team their limit could be reduced to 14 or 13 for one or two years would be no disincentive. |
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Post by green85 on Apr 17, 2019 17:14:55 GMT -8
Looks like the NCAA is going to approve the two-year mandatory scholarship count for grad transfers, unless they complete their degree. Good move. Also protects the mid-majors and smaller programs from deliberate poaching. I just spent time on the NCAA site looking for some reference to the change you mention above. Can you provide a link to this proposed change and likelihood of its passage that you state? I find references to Transfer Waivers for immediate eligibility for undergrads. And I find mention of a program for providing assistance for getting a degree after a student-athlete leaves the program. But I don't find anything about a two year mandatory scholarship count for grad transfers. |
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Post by bvrbooster on Apr 17, 2019 18:11:39 GMT -8
I saw a reference to that change in the newspaper. Might have been today, but I just got back yesterday from 2 weeks away, and caught up with many days sports sections.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Apr 17, 2019 18:12:11 GMT -8
www.apnews.com/e4fbc74f9e7a454bb4f83954b243271eThe NCAA Division I Council is expected to vote by Friday on an amendment that would require a grad transfer to count against a team’s scholarship total for two years, no matter how much eligibility the player has left when they arrive. An exception would be made for athletes who complete graduate degree requirements before the start of the second year.
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Post by green85 on Apr 18, 2019 8:18:38 GMT -8
www.apnews.com/e4fbc74f9e7a454bb4f83954b243271eThe NCAA Division I Council is expected to vote by Friday on an amendment that would require a grad transfer to count against a team’s scholarship total for two years, no matter how much eligibility the player has left when they arrive. An exception would be made for athletes who complete graduate degree requirements before the start of the second year. Thank you for the link. So, a school is punished for accepting a student-athlete into a graduate program (for which he must qualify academically) because that student-athlete does not complete their graduate degree work in 12-15 months. Normal graduate students do not finish their advanced degree in 2 college years, let alone 12 months. So the message is do not transfer, stay at your original school to pursue an advanced degree and play another year of your sport. If you want to pursue a graduate degree in a subject not offered at your current school, then move-on and do not play your sport. Nice reward for a student-athlete that has completed their undergraduate work and received their degree - sorry you don't have the same choices as your fellow students regarding pursuing additional education at the institution of your choice. And sorry, that you are dedicated enough and smart enough to get your degree and you are talented enough to play professional sports - we have decided that you will be limited in the continuing education you can pursue while eligible to play in college. I think the new undergraduate waivers for immediate eligibility are much more troublesome than grad transfers, if only for the simple reason that the grad transfer have met the objective of their original scholarship - they got their degree. |
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Apr 18, 2019 9:06:34 GMT -8
Most MA degrees take two years to complete. Or, the exact time the NCAA will mandate the school keep the scholarship open for the student/athlete to use. learn.org/articles/How_Long_Does_a_Masters_Program_Typically_Take_to_Complete.htmlYou keep saying a school will be "punished." How is it "punishing" a school to require it hold a scholarship open long enough for the student/athlete - who supposedly grad transferred for academic reasons - to complete his MA degree? You're upset because your school has consistently used the grad transfer loophole as a stopgap measure to fill holes in your football, basketball and track & field programs, holes more often than not caused by atrocious retention rates of high school recruits, especially in your men's basketball program, which maybe has graduated three or four players in lengthy Altman coaching era. This new rule might actually curtail schools such as uo from using the grad transfer loophole as virtual free agency. |
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Post by green85 on Apr 18, 2019 9:37:58 GMT -8
Most MA degrees take two years to complete. Or, the exact time the NCAA will mandate the school keep the scholarship open for the student/athlete to use. learn.org/articles/How_Long_Does_a_Masters_Program_Typically_Take_to_Complete.htmlYou keep saying a school will be "punished." How is it "punishing" a school to require it hold a scholarship open long enough for the student/athlete - who supposedly grad transferred for academic reasons - to complete his MA degree? You're upset because your school has consistently used the grad transfer loophole as a stopgap measure to fill holes in your football, basketball and track & field programs, holes more often than not caused by atrocious retention rates of high school recruits, especially in your men's basketball program, which maybe has graduated three or four players in lengthy Altman coaching era. This new rule might actually curtail schools such as uo from using the grad transfer loophole as virtual free agency. As I stated before, I don't care if The u of O ever accepts another grad transfer. My objection is solely on the freedom denied a student-athlete that has done everything right - got their degree - to pursue any additional education and participate in their sport. I KNOW it normally takes two years to get your graduate degree - the issue isn't that the school has to give the student two years to get their degree ... the issue is that the school's athletic program loses the scholarship for the second year without the student-athlete allowed to play the sport. Think about that ... if a kid gets his undergrad degree and has one year of eligibility and he wants to get his graduate degree, the school of his choice (note HIS CHOICE) cannot offer a scholarship to another student athlete because the grad student is still in school, but is not playing a sport. How about this to make it fair ... the student-athlete gets his degree, has a year of eligibility, starts grad school at the same school where he got his undergrad degree, and plays the first year of grad school, and then STAYS in Grad School to finish his degree (can't play his sport) and that school loses an athletic scholarship while he finishes. Transfer or no transfer, the rules are the same. |
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