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Post by shelby on Apr 15, 2019 19:07:40 GMT -8
Didn't look real hard because I am on a work project that has a different kind of deadline - but, in this case Google can be your friend... although it's men, it's 2019 and the stats are given in a number of different ways- so I only captured some data-
'The NCAA acknowledged the study was spurred by a conversation about graduate transfers. Men’s basketball has the most graduate transfers (32 percent) and it's becoming increasingly popular for football quarterbacks to leave and be eligible right away on a different campus. Previously, the NCAA showed that only 24 percent of grad transfers in football and 32 percent in men’s basketball had earned a graduate degree two years after they transferred. What the NCAA couldn’t answer until now was that rate for graduated players who keep playing at their undergrad school. The rates aren't that much different between a graduate transfer and a graduate who stays'
Thus, it appears to me to be more about switching athletic teams than earning that transfer. Additionally, there appear to be new questions about the 'type of classes' that are being selected, as they are not - let us say, particularly challenging.
So, make up your own mind- I don't like it until 'the academic reasons are actually for academic reasons and they are REQUIRED to complete the program - or they must reimburse scholarship dollars ( harsh - but, either a carrot or a stick ).
It's too easy, it's being abused, and it's particularly rampant at those Institutions that know it's a game.
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Post by Werebeaver on Apr 15, 2019 19:29:51 GMT -8
Didn't look real hard because I am on a work project that has a different kind of deadline - but, in this case Google can be your friend... although it's men, it's 2019 and the stats are given in a number of different ways- so I only captured some data- 'The NCAA acknowledged the study was spurred by a conversation about graduate transfers. Men’s basketball has the most graduate transfers (32 percent) and it's becoming increasingly popular for football quarterbacks to leave and be eligible right away on a different campus. Previously, the NCAA showed that only 24 percent of grad transfers in football and 32 percent in men’s basketball had earned a graduate degree two years after they transferred. What the NCAA couldn’t answer until now was that rate for graduated players who keep playing at their undergrad school. The rates aren't that much different between a graduate transfer and a graduate who stays' Thus, it appears to me to be more about switching athletic teams than earning that transfer. Additionally, there appear to be new questions about the 'type of classes' that are being selected, as they are not - let us say, particularly challenging. So, make up your own mind- I don't like it until 'the academic reasons are actually for academic reasons and they are REQUIRED to complete the program - or they must reimburse scholarship dollars ( harsh - but, either a carrot or a stick ). It's too easy, it's being abused, and it's particularly rampant at those Institutions that know it's a game. But why punish the student-athlete? BTW these grad transfer rules apply to ALL NCAA sponsored sports. It would be Interesting to know what the numbers are for WBB (after all, this is a WBB board post). I’m not 100 percent sure but I thought I’d heard that Breanna Brown did complete her masters at Georgia Tech. Personally, I think if a S/A has given a school 4 years of exclusivity for their services while they obtain their undergrad degree it’s only fair that if they have a year of eligibility remaining , it belongs to them, not the school they initially signed with. I’m on the S/A’s side here |
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Post by shelby on Apr 15, 2019 19:43:32 GMT -8
Well, for me, again - it is very much about the lazy way the NCAA designed and polices this policy. Are they consistent about the application of an extra year ? Not that I have seen. I would also like to see the women's data / I am just not taking the time - right now- to look it up and do any cut and paste analysis. But, again, my feeling is that the women take the program far more seriously than the men do. Look at the Adams kid ( Vernon), that went to uo - he was highly underqualified to transfer, would not have gotten into any other PAC 12 school, and then took Mickey Mouse classes just so he could be eligible ( they even mentioned him in one of the articles, as an example of why the program is not academically driven), yes he's a male, I know that.
As far as punishing the athlete. I think every individual knows, up front, before they even start the process, that they either are strongly motivated and capable - versus those that have a poor academic record in a weak area of study and know darn good and well that they have no intention or ability to complete the coursework. Why should these 'athletes only', non academics take a spot away from a more deserving student athlete or student ? I am of the opinion that if you work the system - you owe the system. Just like the recent Pay for Play elite college admissions scam - this screws the kids that have really done the work and that have the true potential.
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Apr 15, 2019 20:01:09 GMT -8
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Post by Werebeaver on Apr 15, 2019 20:01:09 GMT -8
Well, for me, again - it is very much about the lazy way the NCAA designed and polices this policy. Are they consistent about the application of an extra year ? Not that I have seen. I would also like to see the women's data / I am just not taking the time - right now- to look it up and do any cut and paste analysis. But, again, my feeling is that the women take the program far more seriously than the men do. Look at the Adams kid ( Vernon), that went to uo - he was highly underqualified to transfer, would not have gotten into any other PAC 12 school, and then took Mickey Mouse classes just so he could be eligible ( they even mentioned him in one of the articles, as an example of why the program is not academically driven), yes he's a male, I know that. As far as punishing the athlete. I think every individual knows, up front, before they even start the process, that they either are strongly motivated and capable - versus those that have a poor academic record in a weak area of study and know darn good and well that they have no intention or ability to complete the coursework. Why should these 'athletes only', non academics take a spot away from a more deserving student athlete or student ? I am of the opinion that if you work the system - you owe the system. Just like the recent Pay for Play elite college admissions scam - this screws the kids that have really done the work and that have the true potential. By and large they are not taking a Grad school spot away from anyone. Enrollment is down and schools, especially schools like uö are looking to fill unfilled slots. |
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Post by shelby on Apr 16, 2019 3:31:27 GMT -8
Appreciate that perspective and understand some of those dynamics , however, if I am going to support, or be in favor of anything.... I like to look at third party data.
Does a school like Stanford have the same issues ? My guess is 'no'. How about Cal ? There Are schools that put Academics in the proper perspective at a university. There are other schools, uo, WSU, Fresno state - and the like that have just athletes - not student athletes. The focus and the organizational behavior is quite apparent - and to the long term detriment of the attendee's.
Maybe it is also a symptom of the college age generation today. They want it all, and they want it now... even if they had not earned it.
Yet, when they realize that this is not helping their lot in life( too late ), they are perfectly happy working at a job that requires no University degree. Why, just like in school- they want zero responsibility and even less pressure to succeed ( not all of course - but something has definitely changed in our society ).
Then, you look at someone like Mikayla Pivec. She knows where she is going and is working hard at every level to achieve those Personal and Professional goals. That would be great if everyone had, and took advantage of, those types of opportunities.
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Post by Werebeaver on Apr 16, 2019 7:00:46 GMT -8
Appreciate that perspective and understand some of those dynamics , however, if I am going to support, or be in favor of anything.... I like to look at third party data. Does a school like Stanford have the same issues ? My guess is 'no'. How about Cal ? There Are schools that put Academics in the proper perspective at a university. There are other schools, uo, WSU, Fresno state - and the like that have just athletes - not student athletes. The focus and the organizational behavior is quite apparent - and to the long term detriment of the attendee's. Maybe it is also a symptom of the college age generation today. They want it all, and they want it now... even if they had not earned it. Yet, when they realize that this is not helping their lot in life( too late ), they are perfectly happy working at a job that requires no University degree. Why, just like in school- they want zero responsibility and even less pressure to succeed ( not all of course - but something has definitely changed in our society ). Then, you look at someone like Mikayla Pivec. She knows where she is going and is working hard at every level to achieve those Personal and Professional goals. That would be great if everyone had, and took advantage of, those types of opportunities. Its really very simple. Should a S/A who has completed their undergraduate degree in 4 years and still has a 5th year of eligibility remaining be forced to forfeit that opportunity if they decide to pursue a Graduate degree at another school. I say no. I think the current grad transfer rule is simple, fair and equitable. Most importantly it is an additional incentive for S/A’s in all sports to obtain their undergraduate degrees and pursue graduate degrees. I think that is a GOOD thing. Whether it works competitively for or against OSU on the field is, to me at least, not important. |
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Post by Werebeaver on Apr 16, 2019 7:15:35 GMT -8
Shelby said:
“Maybe it is also a symptom of the college age generation today. They want it all, and they want it now... even if they had not earned it.”
Damn kids these days....
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Post by green85 on Apr 16, 2019 8:30:32 GMT -8
I don't know if I can find the stats again, however, some few years ago ( 3 or 4 ) , in men's basketball - only 10% , or so, actually completed their Graduate program and received the degree that they were granted that extra year for. Maybe it's improved - or with anything else, it could be that the women are actually complying with the original intent of the program..The men, not so much. Follow the money ! A student who has completed their undergraduate degree has done everything to honor their commitment to that school for athletics and academic scholarship. If that student-athlete still has athletic eligibility remaining, then why can't that student take classes of ANY KIND at ANY SCHOOL and compete in their sport? A student failing to complete their graduate degree program is not uncommon among both athletes and non-athletes. I venture to guess the percentage of student-athletes that fail to complete their undergraduate degree is higher than those that pursue a graduate degree and fail to complete that. In addition, there are student-athletes that go back to school during or after their professional sports career to complete their undergrad program - I suspect there are student-athletes in graduate school that do the same. BTW, most graduate degrees take 2 to 3 years to complete. So how is a student-athlete that completes his/her eligibility, but fails to get their undergraduate degree different from a student-athlete that has completed their eligibility during graduate school but does not get their graduate degree (answer: 1 of them HAS an undergraduate degree). |
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Apr 16, 2019 8:43:53 GMT -8
Easy fix. Just make the grad transfer's new school count that scholarship for two years, enough time for the student athlete who supposedly transferred for academic reasons to complete his/her MA.
I mean seriously, who transfers from Stanford to Kentucky for ACADEMIC reasons, like Reed Travis did?
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Post by jrbeav59 on Apr 16, 2019 9:29:19 GMT -8
Easy fix. Just make the grad transfer's new school count that scholarship for two years, enough time for the student athlete who supposedly transferred for academic reasons to complete his/her MA. I mean seriously, who transfers from Stanford to Kentucky for ACADEMIC reasons, like Reed Travis did? Or if the grad transfer does not get a advanced degree or have a GRE equal to at least half of the schools grad students, they lose a scholarship for the next two years. |
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Post by green85 on Apr 16, 2019 9:50:40 GMT -8
Easy fix. Just make the grad transfer's new school count that scholarship for two years, enough time for the student athlete who supposedly transferred for academic reasons to complete his/her MA. I mean seriously, who transfers from Stanford to Kentucky for ACADEMIC reasons, like Reed Travis did? Or if the grad transfer does not get a advanced degree or have a GRE equal to at least half of the schools grad students, they lose a scholarship for the next two years. How in the world is that fair to the school? If a student-athlete chooses to leave the graduate program for any reason, then the school loses a scholarship for the next 2 years? And can you take that back to the undergraduate degree world? Tell a school that every time a student-athlete leaves their program before getting their degree then the school loses two years of scholarship to offer to other athletes ... really? Sorry, but ANY student-athlete that earns their undergraduate degree should be proudly offered ANY opportunity to choose their next path ... even if that path is playing a sport at another school. I cannot imagine how it makes sense to punish a SCHOOL for accepting a student-athlete that HAS THEIR DEGREE to enroll and play their sport. If I were the NCAA I would encourage MORE student-athletes to get their undergraduate degree ... and provide rules and incentives that makes that happen at the highest rate possible. |
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Post by beavs6 on Apr 16, 2019 10:39:21 GMT -8
Or if the grad transfer does not get a advanced degree or have a GRE equal to at least half of the schools grad students, they lose a scholarship for the next two years. How in the world is that fair to the school? If a student-athlete chooses to leave the graduate program for any reason, then the school loses a scholarship for the next 2 years? And can you take that back to the undergraduate degree world? Tell a school that every time a student-athlete leaves their program before getting their degree then the school loses two years of scholarship to offer to other athletes ... really? Sorry, but ANY student-athlete that earns their undergraduate degree should be proudly offered ANY opportunity to choose their next path ... even if that path is playing a sport at another school. I cannot imagine how it makes sense to punish a SCHOOL for accepting a student-athlete that HAS THEIR DEGREE to enroll and play their sport. If I were the NCAA I would encourage MORE student-athletes to get their undergraduate degree ... and provide rules and incentives that makes that happen at the highest rate possible. If my school of choice had the richest owner in the NCAA, this is exactly how I would feel. Let anyone with a degree go wherever they want for whatever reason ($$$) they want.
You have to admit there are SOME restraints that should be in place....no?
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Apr 16, 2019 11:27:17 GMT -8
Or if the grad transfer does not get a advanced degree or have a GRE equal to at least half of the schools grad students, they lose a scholarship for the next two years. How in the world is that fair to the school? If a student-athlete chooses to leave the graduate program for any reason, then the school loses a scholarship for the next 2 years? And can you take that back to the undergraduate degree world? Tell a school that every time a student-athlete leaves their program before getting their degree then the school loses two years of scholarship to offer to other athletes ... really? Sorry, but ANY student-athlete that earns their undergraduate degree should be proudly offered ANY opportunity to choose their next path ... even if that path is playing a sport at another school. I cannot imagine how it makes sense to punish a SCHOOL for accepting a student-athlete that HAS THEIR DEGREE to enroll and play their sport. If I were the NCAA I would encourage MORE student-athletes to get their undergraduate degree ... and provide rules and incentives that makes that happen at the highest rate possible. We are not talking about undergraduate transfers. So why did you even bring that up? The only reason you can grad transfer is for academic reasons. Therefore it is incumbent on the school you are transferring to to give you the best opportunity to earn your MA. The best way for that to happen is to guarantee the scholarship for two years, the normal time it takes to complete an MA. How is that punishing the second school? If the athlete drops out of his MA program after completing his eligibility, he has clearly misused the process in the first place. And it should be incumbent on the incoming school to do their due diligence and make sure the incoming athlete actually plans to attend class/get an MA and live up to the terms of his graduate transfer. Of course, as a uo fan I can see why you are taking the approach you take, seeing the number of free-agent transfers you've had in football and basketball over the past 7-8 years. They all got a bunch of free Nike s%#t but none of them left with an MA degree, right? |
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Post by mbabeav on Apr 16, 2019 11:41:08 GMT -8
OK, the two questions I have are, if most grad programs are 2 years +, and the player has one year of eligibility left, do they get a full ride to finish their entire degree? Do they stay to finish their degrees?
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Post by green85 on Apr 16, 2019 13:20:27 GMT -8
How in the world is that fair to the school? If a student-athlete chooses to leave the graduate program for any reason, then the school loses a scholarship for the next 2 years? And can you take that back to the undergraduate degree world? Tell a school that every time a student-athlete leaves their program before getting their degree then the school loses two years of scholarship to offer to other athletes ... really? Sorry, but ANY student-athlete that earns their undergraduate degree should be proudly offered ANY opportunity to choose their next path ... even if that path is playing a sport at another school. I cannot imagine how it makes sense to punish a SCHOOL for accepting a student-athlete that HAS THEIR DEGREE to enroll and play their sport. If I were the NCAA I would encourage MORE student-athletes to get their undergraduate degree ... and provide rules and incentives that makes that happen at the highest rate possible. We are not talking about undergraduate transfers. So why did you even bring that up? The only reason you can grad transfer is for academic reasons. Therefore it is incumbent on the school you are transferring to to give you the best opportunity to earn your MA. The best way for that to happen is to guarantee the scholarship for two years, the normal time it takes to complete an MA. How is that punishing the second school? If the athlete drops out of his MA program after completing his eligibility, he has clearly misused the process in the first place. And it should be incumbent on the incoming school to do their due diligence and make sure the incoming athlete actually plans to attend class/get an MA and live up to the terms of his graduate transfer. Of course, as a uo fan I can see why you are taking the approach you take, seeing the number of free-agent transfers you've had in football and basketball over the past 7-8 years. They all got a bunch of free Nike s%#t but none of them left with an MA degree, right? I brought up undergraduates because they can leave school any time they want with no repercussions to the school - and certainly no loss of scholarships to offer to other student-athletes. The proposal in the post regarding student-athletes that leave early from graduate school is to punish the school with a loss of scholarship available for any future student-athlete. Do you get the connection now? Second, a student-athlete that transfers to another school as a graduate student has their degree. They have completed their academic requirements for the school where they were given an athletic scholarship. Why should that athlete be penalized in any way for seeking additional education and an opportunity to play at any school? What exactly are you trying to accomplish with a negative incentive for a student to pursue any additional education - even if they do not get a degree? Yes, some grad transfers use their last year of eligibility to try to move their athletic career forward. They are still required to attend school - so they are still getting at least some education. How is that WORSE than simply forgoing the education opportunity and playing in the G-league or D-league or overseas? There are extreme examples of motivated individuals that PLAN to do something other than professional sports for their career that still want to play through all of their college eligibility. What is the purpose to deny those athletes that opportunity? |
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