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Post by atownbeaver on Jun 7, 2018 11:15:50 GMT -8
atownbeaver - I think you're right - those are probably the two scenarios that were presented. It's entirely plausible. I'm just saying that with all this purported circumstantial evidence to the contrary of him being actually guilty, I also think it's possible that a judge would've thrown the thing out. If the only thing going is the word of a six year old girl....that seems a flimsy thing to hang a case on. Numerous times, people have said that "only two people know what really happened" and yet we all keep shouting down people who have different beliefs on what really happened as crazy and vindictive or only believing he's innocent because of the color of his jersey or whatever. It really is an awful situation all the way around. For what it is worth... Luke and others have said in hindsight they would of fought it. Luke mentioned in an interview he felt neither he nor his family really understood the magnitude of pleading guilty. it could of been a pretty good sales job by their lawyer/the prosecutor. Easy to say of course, when it is out in the open. You are right, only two people really know what happened. which in a lot of ways makes this thing so s%#tty. People are all really so certain of their position. Certain enough a guy that is talented enough to be a first round pitcher is entirely undrafted after 40 rounds of picks, while right now there are hundreds of guys on MLB farm teams and rosters that have done some pretty damn terrible things in their own right.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 7, 2018 11:53:45 GMT -8
atownbeaver - I think you're right - those are probably the two scenarios that were presented. It's entirely plausible. I'm just saying that with all this purported circumstantial evidence to the contrary of him being actually guilty, I also think it's possible that a judge would've thrown the thing out. If the only thing going is the word of a six year old girl....that seems a flimsy thing to hang a case on. Numerous times, people have said that "only two people know what really happened" and yet we all keep shouting down people who have different beliefs on what really happened as crazy and vindictive or only believing he's innocent because of the color of his jersey or whatever. It really is an awful situation all the way around. For what it is worth... Luke and others have said in hindsight they would of fought it. Luke mentioned in an interview he felt neither he nor his family really understood the magnitude of pleading guilty. it could of been a pretty good sales job by their lawyer/the prosecutor. Easy to say of course, when it is out in the open. You are right, only two people really know what happened. which in a lot of ways makes this thing so s%#tty. People are all really so certain of their position. Certain enough a guy that is talented enough to be a first round pitcher is entirely undrafted after 40 rounds of picks, while right now there are hundreds of guys on MLB farm teams and rosters that have done some pretty damn terrible things in their own right. You're final point is your best point. With all of the known evidence, it seems to me that the preponderance of evidence seems to favor the conclusion that Luke molested his niece. Others look at it and want to and do give Luke the benefit of the doubt. At the end of the day, our opinions do not matter all-that-much. I agree with you that, even if he did do it (and he did), are his actions so abhorrent that he should not be drafted? I think Pat Casey's comments about guys in the Rangers' organization show that other kids that also did abhorrent things were drafted. So what makes Luke different? You can talk about low recidivism, but that only applies to juveniles who admit what they did. If they do not admit it, recidivism skyrockets. I think jimbeav makes some great points. A big problem with Luke is that he won't pick a lane. He either needs to be the villain, admit what he did, and admit that he was wrong. Or he needs to be the victim of his villainous ex-aunt. He needs to say what she did, when she did it, and why. The fact that he won't makes me believe all-the-more that he is guilty. And I would hazard to say that, at the end of the day, that is why he was not drafted. He did not provide a coherent story to any of the major league teams. They can work with past transgressions, if Luke provided them with a story, but he can't or won't. A point that someone brought up is that maybe Luke is denial. That is entirely possibility. He did it, but his 15-year-old mind blocked it out. Finally, man, home-schooled kids. There are lots of good ones, but there are also lots of bad ones. For the bad ones, it is like their mind just never works quite like how you would like it to.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 7, 2018 12:57:32 GMT -8
I thought it was just an internet search. If Moran and Oregonian hadn't wrote the story it would have come out anyway. Absolutely was not an internet search. You have to know where to search, but, the last time I looked, it was still there.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2018 13:03:07 GMT -8
Pat Casey ought to call out ESPN publicly for parading Luke's situation on national television. He should be expressing moral outrage that, in all of our concern about sexual matters, we've lost our willingness to forgive a 15-year kid, and instead apparently choose to punish him FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE, to DENY HIM AN OPPORTUNITY to use exercise his skills in his chosen profession, and to IGNORE that fact that he is, today, AN UPSTANDING CITIZEN and a FINE YOUNG MAN. ESPN, the MLB, and others are ignoring the simple fact that he is, today, not the same person he was as a 15-year old. They judge him without knowing him, without ever having met him, and are in the ignominous position of knowing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the details of his case and the relevant science. Pat Casey, as a prominent figure in college baseball, could call out ESPN and publicly embarrass them, which is EXACTLY what someone needs to do.
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Post by atownbeaver on Jun 7, 2018 13:13:32 GMT -8
For what it is worth... Luke and others have said in hindsight they would of fought it. Luke mentioned in an interview he felt neither he nor his family really understood the magnitude of pleading guilty. it could of been a pretty good sales job by their lawyer/the prosecutor. Easy to say of course, when it is out in the open. You are right, only two people really know what happened. which in a lot of ways makes this thing so s%#tty. People are all really so certain of their position. Certain enough a guy that is talented enough to be a first round pitcher is entirely undrafted after 40 rounds of picks, while right now there are hundreds of guys on MLB farm teams and rosters that have done some pretty damn terrible things in their own right. Finally, man, home-schooled kids. There are lots of good ones, but there are also lots of bad ones. For the bad ones, it is like their mind just never works quite like how you would like it to. I just choose to accept it is grey. it is possible he did it. it is possible he didn't do it, and we all shouldn't behave like it is etched in granite. It ain't like there was a video of it, or eye witnesses or anything to that effect. but not my point. my point is, uh, yeah. home schooled kids. I will say, the family dynamic is bizarre. even now, even in articles he is trying to defend his innocence, he still won't really touch on the family. He just says vague stuff like "there is sensitive family stuff.." really, so sensitive that you will cover for them while sacrificing a multi-million dollar contract? and that has been an ongoing theme. "family stuff". absent the case, stuff is weird up there.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 7, 2018 13:15:14 GMT -8
Pat Casey ought to call out ESPN publicly for parading Luke's situation on national television. He should be expressing moral outrage that, in all of our concern about sexual matters, we've lost our willingness to forgive a 15-year kid, and instead apparently choose to punish him FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE, to DENY HIM AN OPPORTUNITY to use exercise his skills in his chosen profession, and to IGNORE that fact that he is, today, AN UPSTANDING CITIZEN and a FINE YOUNG MAN. ESPN, the MLB, and others are ignoring the simple fact that he is, today, not the same person he was as a 15-year old. They judge him without knowing him, without ever having met him, and are in the ignominous position of knowing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the details of his case and the relevant science. Pat Casey, as a prominent figure in college baseball, could call out ESPN and publicly embarrass them, which is EXACTLY what someone needs to do. I like Pat Casey calling out the Rangers' hypocrisy. Past that, Casey ought to coach the damn team. He should be more worried about Minnesota than whether Heimlich gets a free agent contract. I am sure that Casey will work to get Heimlich a shot somewhere in the offseason, whether it be in the United States or Japan.
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Post by atownbeaver on Jun 7, 2018 13:19:40 GMT -8
I thought it was just an internet search. If Moran and Oregonian hadn't wrote the story it would have come out anyway. Absolutely was not an internet search. Well, I mean. it was. it wasn't a google search or anything like that. It was a criminal background checking service. There is no way a person just googling Luke Heimlich was going to see the Benton county citation. That is the point here.
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2ndGenBeaver
Sophomore
Posts: 1,837
Grad Year: 1991 (MS/CS) 1999 (PhD/CS)
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on Jun 7, 2018 13:24:38 GMT -8
Pat Casey ought to call out ESPN publicly for parading Luke's situation on national television. He should be expressing moral outrage that, in all of our concern about sexual matters, we've lost our willingness to forgive a 15-year kid, and instead apparently choose to punish him FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE, to DENY HIM AN OPPORTUNITY to use exercise his skills in his chosen profession, and to IGNORE that fact that he is, today, AN UPSTANDING CITIZEN and a FINE YOUNG MAN. ESPN, the MLB, and others are ignoring the simple fact that he is, today, not the same person he was as a 15-year old. They judge him without knowing him, without ever having met him, and are in the ignominous position of knowing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the details of his case and the relevant science. Pat Casey, as a prominent figure in college baseball, could call out ESPN and publicly embarrass them, which is EXACTLY what someone needs to do. I actually fear some of this battle was lost a year ago. When Luke withdrew from the CWS, when the administration and coach PC saw this as a distraction.... If (and that is a big IF) the context that is emerging now was available to the leadership (OSU, PC) then, we should have staunchly supported Luke and his participation in the CWS. And made clear why. (I actually thought our general decision making down the stretch faltered during last year's CWS - the missed fair/foul ball, trotting out a tired arm vs. throwing Johnny Wholestaff, how the Luke situation was dealt with, not getting a coach or two ejected over that one ump's egregious "strike" zone.....) Now, as the point was made earlier in this thread, there are well-entrenched assumptions about guilt that various institutions can use as "news" and info graphics to generate debate and visibility..... Weird maneuver by Texas Rangers as well. I do some intellectual property work for my company, and sometimes we do a "defensive publication" where we don't want some other company to benefit from potentially patentable work we have decided not to file on, so we make sure there is "prior art"......it feels like Texas decided to take a pass on Luke, but they wanted to make sure no other MLB team was going to benefit from their decision, so they did a "defensive publication". Lot of cynical people/organizations angling for their own benefit, and forgetting (or having compassion for the fact) that a couple of youngsters have lost a lot in this mess. Go Beavers!
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 7, 2018 13:36:35 GMT -8
Pat Casey ought to call out ESPN publicly for parading Luke's situation on national television. He should be expressing moral outrage that, in all of our concern about sexual matters, we've lost our willingness to forgive a 15-year kid, and instead apparently choose to punish him FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE, to DENY HIM AN OPPORTUNITY to use exercise his skills in his chosen profession, and to IGNORE that fact that he is, today, AN UPSTANDING CITIZEN and a FINE YOUNG MAN. ESPN, the MLB, and others are ignoring the simple fact that he is, today, not the same person he was as a 15-year old. They judge him without knowing him, without ever having met him, and are in the ignominous position of knowing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the details of his case and the relevant science. Pat Casey, as a prominent figure in college baseball, could call out ESPN and publicly embarrass them, which is EXACTLY what someone needs to do. I actually fear some of this battle was lost a year ago. When Luke withdrew from the CWS, when the administration and coach PC saw this as a distraction.... If (and that is a big IF) the context that is emerging now was available to the leadership (OSU, PC) then, we should have staunchly supported Luke and his participation in the CWS. And made clear why. (I actually thought our general decision making down the stretch faltered during last year's CWS - the missed fair/foul ball, trotting out a tired arm vs. throwing Johnny Wholestaff, how the Luke situation was dealt with, not getting a coach or two ejected over that one ump's egregious "strike" zone.....) Now, as the point was made earlier in this thread, there are well-entrenched assumptions about guilt that various institutions can use as "news" and info graphics to generate debate and visibility..... Weird maneuver by Texas Rangers as well. I do some intellectual property work for my company, and sometimes we do a "defensive publication" where we don't want some other company to benefit from potentially patentable work we have decided not to file on, so we make sure there is "prior art"......it feels like Texas decided to take a pass on Luke, but they wanted to make sure no other MLB team was going to benefit from their decision, so they did a "defensive publication". Lot of cynical people/organizations angling for their own benefit, and forgetting (or having compassion for the fact) that a couple of youngsters have lost a lot in this mess. Go Beavers! I agree with most of this. Luke should have played in the Super Regional and at the College World Series. It would have made him look less guilty. As for the youngsters. One lost in the mess that he created (either through bad acts or taking the fall for something that he did not do), but several other youngsters, who did not "plead guilty" to molesting their niece benefited.
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Post by nabeav on Jun 7, 2018 14:37:47 GMT -8
I need some more clarification on how juvenile courts work too. Had he fought it and gone to trial, that would not be public, correct? So how exactly did pleading guilty help him more than being found guilty change the outcome now? My uneducated guess is that, while he may have spent a few months in a juvenile facility, by and large the outcome as an adult would be the same: stay clean for a few years and we seal the record.
Also, I can’t overlook the fact that he pleaded guilty when he and his advisors thought that was the most beneficial situation to him, and now he’s proclaiming his innocence when that is what he and his advisors think is the most beneficial situation.
He said nothing about his innocence last year before the draft, instead releasing that statement about accepting the things he had done and striving to be a better person. Then he didn’t get drafted. So now a new strategy of granting interviews to everyone saying he’s innocent?
It makes my heart hurt that both Luke and his niece seem to be victims of the agendas of other people in their lives.
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Post by jimbeav on Jun 7, 2018 17:18:20 GMT -8
I have read in multiple stories that he was facing 2 years in a juvenile detention facility if he was found guilty...
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 7, 2018 17:46:22 GMT -8
I have read in multiple stories that he was facing 2 years in a juvenile detention facility if he was found guilty... The Tribune article indicates that he was facing 40 weeks. Other articles that I have read also indicate that that would have been the sentence, as well, but maybe they are just quoting the Tribune article?
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Post by bennyorange on Jun 8, 2018 7:20:56 GMT -8
And Danny Moran will probably claim "absence of malice", though I beg to differ with the Oregonian in general: (video for those of you not born yet when the movie I am referencing came out) COMPLETELY off topic but this is an awesome movie if you haven't seen it. It really paints a disturbing picture of the press that we've now seen in action in this case.
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Post by obf on Jun 11, 2018 10:50:16 GMT -8
I need some more clarification on how juvenile courts work too. Had he fought it and gone to trial, that would not be public, correct? So how exactly did pleading guilty help him more than being found guilty change the outcome now? My uneducated guess is that, while he may have spent a few months in a juvenile facility, by and large the outcome as an adult would be the same: stay clean for a few years and we seal the record. Also, I can’t overlook the fact that he pleaded guilty when he and his advisors thought that was the most beneficial situation to him, and now he’s proclaiming his innocence when that is what he and his advisors think is the most beneficial situation. He said nothing about his innocence last year before the draft, instead releasing that statement about accepting the things he had done and striving to be a better person. Then he didn’t get drafted. So now a new strategy of granting interviews to everyone saying he’s innocent? It makes my heart hurt that both Luke and his niece seem to be victims of the agendas of other people in their lives. Wait... so in 5 years the situation can't change and he can't change his course of action to match? Seems obvious that when something huge changes the entire situation (being outed by olive) then the strategy moving forward would change... In terms of proclaiming innocence before last years draft... I am pretty sure it was a part of the agreement that allowed his record to be sealed... If I read the situation correctly he COULDN'T publicly proclaim his innocence and kept the deal in place...
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