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Post by nabeav on May 9, 2018 8:17:02 GMT -8
For me, the law in this situation is irrelevant. Guilty, not guilty, adjudicated, sentenced, plea deal, expunged record, sealed testimony..they're all semantics. I believe that he did something that made his niece uncomfortable enough to tell her parents about it. To me, that's reason enough for me to not root for him on the baseball field, though again, I see no reason why he can't play baseball. There's 24 other guys on the team I can support. However, a concerning thing for me is the "nothing to see here" atmosphere around baseball whenever any sort of legal issue with a useful player/coach comes up (Christian Donohue might be the only exception). I might be off on some of the details ( wilkyisdashiznit might be able to help me out): Mike Lissman - stole money from a relative, played in CWS Jorge Reyes/John Wallace/Anton Maxwell - plead guilty to reckless endangerment to avoid a felony charge of unlawful use of a weapon, suspended for one non-conference series. Ben Wetzler - drunkenly broke into the wrong house, essentially his "punishment" was pitching on Sunday instead of Friday. Nate Yeskie - DUI and reckless endangerment, no team punishment that I know of. Then there's the guy that wasn't very effective: Clay Bauer - Broke into the University Market, cut from the team. Only made one start as a junior, removed in the second inning. |
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Post by atownbeaver on May 9, 2018 9:19:00 GMT -8
It would have been better, IMHO, if the authorities would have not botched his reporting requirement, and the little "o" had left it alone. Better for the niece, better for LH, and better for the university. What I love about many left of center politically is they are all for helping the criminals, rehabilitation, a fresh chance - until it involves something they don't like. Then? He should never be able to move on, it should follow him FOREVER!!!!! Really? Even after the authorities have said he has done everything right since he was accused, and has very little chance of repeating this, assuming he is guilty? The court has actually expunged the record. So, what is the end game here? What would make you happy? Public floggings for the rest of his life? How do you bring closure when the scab is continually ripped off? I consider myself "left of center"... Hell I am probably a dirty pinko commie in some people's eyes. I have two public health degrees, a career in government employment in health policy in which I support policy positions that work towards socializing health care... So yeah, dirty liberal up in here. But what i am getting at, is even me, dirty commie liberal, wants vengeance... not justice... when somebody wrongs me or my loved ones. It is not a political thing, it is a HUMAN thing. I think it is a pretty hard thing for everybody to really, truly, let bygones be bygones. It is hard to really forgive a wrong, to really forget a wrong and to really judge a person for who they are now, what they were before. |
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Post by kersting13 on May 9, 2018 11:09:17 GMT -8
We all need to stop pretending we have ANY clue about ANYTHING that went on between Luke and his family.
As far as the State of WA is concerned, the matter is settled.
End of story.
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Post by NativeBeav on May 9, 2018 11:20:55 GMT -8
It would have been better, IMHO, if the authorities would have not botched his reporting requirement, and the little "o" had left it alone. Better for the niece, better for LH, and better for the university. What I love about many left of center politically is they are all for helping the criminals, rehabilitation, a fresh chance - until it involves something they don't like. Then? He should never be able to move on, it should follow him FOREVER!!!!! Really? Even after the authorities have said he has done everything right since he was accused, and has very little chance of repeating this, assuming he is guilty? The court has actually expunged the record. So, what is the end game here? What would make you happy? Public floggings for the rest of his life? How do you bring closure when the scab is continually ripped off? I consider myself "left of center"... Hell I am probably a dirty pinko commie in some people's eyes. I have two public health degrees, a career in government employment in health policy in which I support policy positions that work towards socializing health care... So yeah, dirty liberal up in here. But what i am getting at, is even me, dirty commie liberal, wants vengeance... not justice... when somebody wrongs me or my loved ones. It is not a political thing, it is a HUMAN thing. I think it is a pretty hard thing for everybody to really, truly, let bygones be bygones. It is hard to really forgive a wrong, to really forget a wrong and to really judge a person for who they are now, what they were before. Wow - struck a nerve on that one  . You are one of the best posters on here, and I appreciate most everything you have to say. No intent to make this political, just pointing out some of the inconsistencies of some posters on here that wish to see LH kicked off the team, and perpetually embarrassed and punished, when the court in Washington has basically wiped the slate clean and closed the matter. There are lots of times I shake my head at the sentence reduction/ elimination for a proven violent crime - with forensic evidence - because the "experts" say they have rehabilitated themselves - they are let go - then do it again. In this case, it was a one time incident, no real hard evidence, and according to the "experts", based on LH's age, evaluation and counseling, even IF it did happen, very slim chance it happens again. I agree - it is human nature to want vengeance instead of justice - myself included at times. I have to fight like hell against it. (love that line from The Magnificent Seven - "I seek justice - but I will take vengeance") and so it goes............. (Edit - got the quote wrong - it was "What I seek is righteousness, but I will take revenge") |
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Post by atownbeaver on May 9, 2018 11:52:37 GMT -8
I consider myself "left of center"... Hell I am probably a dirty pinko commie in some people's eyes. I have two public health degrees, a career in government employment in health policy in which I support policy positions that work towards socializing health care... So yeah, dirty liberal up in here. But what i am getting at, is even me, dirty commie liberal, wants vengeance... not justice... when somebody wrongs me or my loved ones. It is not a political thing, it is a HUMAN thing. I think it is a pretty hard thing for everybody to really, truly, let bygones be bygones. It is hard to really forgive a wrong, to really forget a wrong and to really judge a person for who they are now, what they were before. Wow - struck a nerve on that one . You are one of the best posters on here, and I appreciate most everything you have to say. No intent to make this political, just pointing out some of the inconsistencies of some posters on here that wish to see LH kicked off the team, and perpetually embarrassed and punished, when the court in Washington has basically wiped the slate clean and closed the matter. There are lots of times I shake my head at the sentence reduction/ elimination for a proven violent crime - with forensic evidence - because the "experts" say they have rehabilitated themselves - they are let go - then do it again. In this case, it was a one time incident, no real hard evidence, and according to the "experts", based on LH's age, evaluation and counseling, even IF it did happen, very slim chance it happens again. I agree - it is human nature to want vengeance instead of justice - myself included at times. I have to fight like hell against it. (love that line from The Magnificent Seven - "I seek justice - but I will take vengeance") and so it goes............. Oh, sorry if I misstated myself. i was actually trying to agree with you and was in no way offended or anything. I was trying to say, that I, who fancies himself liberal, agrees that even us folk that fancy ourselves touchy-feely and empathetic and bleeding heart all that, lust for blood when it is on our own doorsteps. that was my only point. It is a human condition. |
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Post by NativeBeav on May 9, 2018 12:07:25 GMT -8
Wow - struck a nerve on that one . You are one of the best posters on here, and I appreciate most everything you have to say. No intent to make this political, just pointing out some of the inconsistencies of some posters on here that wish to see LH kicked off the team, and perpetually embarrassed and punished, when the court in Washington has basically wiped the slate clean and closed the matter. There are lots of times I shake my head at the sentence reduction/ elimination for a proven violent crime - with forensic evidence - because the "experts" say they have rehabilitated themselves - they are let go - then do it again. In this case, it was a one time incident, no real hard evidence, and according to the "experts", based on LH's age, evaluation and counseling, even IF it did happen, very slim chance it happens again. I agree - it is human nature to want vengeance instead of justice - myself included at times. I have to fight like hell against it. (love that line from The Magnificent Seven - "I seek justice - but I will take vengeance") and so it goes............. Oh, sorry if I misstated myself. i was actually trying to agree with you and was in no way offended or anything. I was trying to say, that I, who fancies himself liberal, agrees that even us folk that fancy ourselves touchy-feely and empathetic and bleeding heart all that, lust for blood when it is on our own doorsteps. that was my only point. It is a human condition. Thanks for clarifying, Atown. I thought I had maybe misunderstood what you were saying, based on earlier posts. Couldn't agree more on the human condition angle. It is just too bad it might ultimately cost LH a shot at the majors, or a continued distraction for our team heading into post season. Hopefully not. |
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Post by beaverdude on May 9, 2018 12:36:30 GMT -8
Mike Lissman - stole money from a relative, played in CWS Jorge Reyes/John Wallace/Anton Maxwell - plead guilty to reckless endangerment to avoid a felony charge of unlawful use of a weapon, suspended for one non-conference series. Ben Wetzler - drunkenly broke into the wrong house, essentially his "punishment" was pitching on Sunday instead of Friday. Nate Yeskie - DUI and reckless endangerment, no team punishment that I know of. Then there's the guy that wasn't very effective: Clay Bauer - Broke into the University Market, cut from the team. Only made one start as a junior, removed in the second inning. One nit-pick.... Your examples are of events involving active OSU players or an OSU coach. LH has done nothing like that during his OSU career. |
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Post by baseba1111 on May 9, 2018 12:47:02 GMT -8
We all need to stop pretending we have ANY clue about ANYTHING that went on between Luke and his family. As far as the State of WA is concerned, the matter is settled. End of story. But, what we do know from posts on this topic for almost a year now... there is reason people are advised to take plea "deals" vs face a jury of "these peers". Thx for making that accidentally crystal clear... Also... end of story! |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 9, 2018 16:04:52 GMT -8
We all need to stop pretending we have ANY clue about ANYTHING that went on between Luke and his family. As far as the State of WA is concerned, the matter is settled. End of story. You want us to pretend that we cannot make logical inferences about a known set of facts? We should shake up a Magic 8-Ball and base our opinion on the subject on the outcome? The State of Washington chapter has closed its book on Luke Heimlich. However, the Luke Heimlich story will continue into time immemorial, just like every other embarrassing character, who has ever donned the black-and-orange. Luke Heimlich is the current gay sheep theft. |
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Post by NativeBeav on May 9, 2018 16:44:57 GMT -8
We all need to stop pretending we have ANY clue about ANYTHING that went on between Luke and his family. As far as the State of WA is concerned, the matter is settled. End of story. You want us to pretend that we cannot make logical inferences about a known set of facts? We should shake up a Magic 8-Ball and base our opinion on the subject on the outcome? The State of Washington chapter has closed its book on Luke Heimlich. However, the Luke Heimlich story will continue into time immemorial, just like every other embarrassing character, who has ever donned the black-and-orange. Luke Heimlich is the current gay sheep theft. Unless you think CPC and his teammates are clueless and poor judges of character - I disagree. The only people who really care at this point are the press (for money) and those who like to play the fake moral outrage game. Or, those who have been associated with an unfortunate event like this, that impacted them personally. I am sorry Wilky if you are in one of these categories. With all of the information available that I have read, there is still reasonable doubt on what did or did not happen - regardless of how he plead. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 9, 2018 16:49:42 GMT -8
Your timeline is wrong, which I believe is coloring your analysis. Josh and Mrs. Heimlich got divorced, and Josh got custody. Mrs. Heimlich had visitation rights. When Josh worked, Josh and Luke's parents watched Josh's daughter. This is what provided Luke with access to his niece. I know that Luke's niece believes that Luke molested her. I know that Luke's former aunt believes that Luke molested her daughter and is still upset about it. From the "pro-Luke" Tribune piece, Josh Heimlich called the cops on his 16-year-old brother. And does not talk to Luke anymore. I conclude that Josh is still upset about it. Family is everything. Family is even a bigger deal for a religious family like the Heimlichs. If I am Josh and I call the cops on my brother, that means I am 100% certain that he did it. Luke's niece believes that Luke sexually assaulted her, Luke's aunt believes that Luke sexually assaulted her daughter, and, most damning, Josh Heimlich believes it. I believe that we owe it to Luke's niece to believe her. I believe that we owe Josh and Mrs. Heimlich to believe them and their little girl. I can appreciate everything you are saying, but for me the bottom line is we just don't know without further evidence. It still boils down to a 6 year old claiming something that may or may not be true. I know a lot of people want to believe that a 5, 6 or 7 year old is incapable of "mis-remembering" something - having kids of my own - I know that is not true. If I was Josh, I would be upset as well. Regarding timeline, I am not sure any of us have the exact timeline - only what we read in the news. What really cheeses me about this? NO ONE WINS - just like in divorce. By dredging all of this up again and again and again only generates lots of energy spent debating what happened or didn't happen six years ago by us the general public, and make pieces of crap like Crapzano, the dead fish wrapper, and others lots of money on clicks. It stinks. It would have been better, IMHO, if the authorities would have not botched his reporting requirement, and the little "o" had left it alone. Better for the niece, better for LH, and better for the university. What I love about many left of center politically is they are all for helping the criminals, rehabilitation, a fresh chance - until it involves something they don't like. Then? He should never be able to move on, it should follow him FOREVER!!!!! Really? Even after the authorities have said he has done everything right since he was accused, and has very little chance of repeating this, assuming he is guilty? The court has actually expunged the record. So, what is the end game here? What would make you happy? Public floggings for the rest of his life? How do you bring closure when the scab is continually ripped off? I have a 7, 4, and 1-year-old. The 7-year-old probably has a better memory than me and had just as good of a memory at 6. You paint with a broad brush saying that a 6-year-old could mis-remember something that badly. Could there be a 6-year-old who could mis-remember something? I suppose it is within the realm of possibility. But why would a 6-year-old mis-remember an uncle putting a part of himself inside of her? That is very different than what a child typically mis-remembers. And why Luke? There are at least four other people in that house other than Luke. Why Luke? Luke is stopped from winning, which is winning in the eyes of his former sister-in-law, who feels wronged. And rightly so. I can only imagine what I would do to some punk 16-year-old, if I found out like something like this had happened. If you knew that someone evil was going to be rewarded with a fat baseball contract, what would you do? Would you keep your mouth shut? If so, you are a bigger person than me. And John Canzano and "The Oregonian" win. The bloodsucking media wins again. And each of LHPs behind Luke in the 2017 draft won by moving up a spot. So, in the end, plenty of people win. I am glad that the Benton County authorities were hounding sex offenders, making Benton County a better place to live. With no sarcasm, that is great. That is what I want to see out of the authorities. No more Brooke Wilbergers in Benton County. Ever! And "The Oregonian" acted in their own best interest, which you can almost count on the bloodsucking media to do. As for the niece, I don't know. If her mom kept Luke Heimlich out of the bigs from being on TV, from being on the radio. That is a win for the niece, I think. Short term, I think that you may be right it will hurt her. But long term, it is probably a positive. Unless, you think that Luke would have flamed out in the minors. In which case, you are probably right. What would make me happy? What would have made me happy is Luke getting drafted in the 50th round and being somebody else's problem. What would make me happy now is for Luke to keep himself out of the damned newspaper. If Luke cared a lick for any of us or the University or his family or his niece, he would not be giving interviews to the "New York Times" or "The Oregonian." He would keep his head down and graduate. That would make me happy at this point. It would make me happy, if he graduated and never wore orange-and-black again and moved east over the Rockies, disappeared into a sea of people on the other side of the mountains. It would make me happy, if Luke dedicated his life to making the world a better place, just like it would make me happy, if we all set out to do the same. What would make me happy is no one cheering Luke on extra, because other people are being too tough on little Luke-y. Aww.....the poor little sexual assault perpetrator. Extra cheers for him! At this point, legally, there is nothing to be done. What remains is how we act. When people stop talking logically and go immediately into half-cocked conspiracy theory mode, I feel compelled to post. When people cheer extra for poor little Luke-y, because he got dealt a bad hand, the world is turned upside down. It is so perverse and backward. Go Beavs! |
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Post by NativeBeav on May 9, 2018 17:12:18 GMT -8
I have a 7, 4, and 1-year-old. The 7-year-old probably has a better memory than me and had just as good of a memory at 6. You paint with a broad brush saying that a 6-year-old could mis-remember something that badly. Could there be a 6-year-old who could mis-remember something? I suppose it is within the realm of possibility. But why would a 6-year-old mis-remember an uncle putting a part of himself inside of her? That is very different than what a child typically mis-remembers. And why Luke? There are at least four other people in that house other than Luke. Why Luke? Luke is stopped from winning, which is winning in the eyes of his former sister-in-law, who feels wronged. And rightly so. I can only imagine what I would do to some punk 16-year-old, if I found out like something like this had happened. If you knew that someone evil was going to be rewarded with a fat baseball contract, what would you do? Would you keep your mouth shut? If so, you are a bigger person than me. And John Canzano and "The Oregonian" win. The bloodsucking media wins again. And each of LHPs behind Luke in the 2017 draft won by moving up a spot. So, in the end, plenty of people win. I am glad that the Benton County authorities were hounding sex offenders, making Benton County a better place to live. With no sarcasm, that is great. That is what I want to see out of the authorities. No more Brooke Wilbergers in Benton County. Ever! And "The Oregonian" acted in their own best interest, which you can almost count on the bloodsucking media to do. As for the niece, I don't know. If her mom kept Luke Heimlich out of the bigs from being on TV, from being on the radio. That is a win for the niece, I think. Short term, I think that you may be right it will hurt her. But long term, it is probably a positive. Unless, you think that Luke would have flamed out in the minors. In which case, you are probably right. What would make me happy? What would have made me happy is Luke getting drafted in the 50th round and being somebody else's problem. What would make me happy now is for Luke to keep himself out of the damned newspaper. If Luke cared a lick for any of us or the University or his family or his niece, he would not be giving interviews to the "New York Times" or "The Oregonian." He would keep his head down and graduate. That would make me happy at this point. It would make me happy, if he graduated and never wore orange-and-black again and moved east over the Rockies, disappeared into a sea of people on the other side of the mountains. It would make me happy, if Luke dedicated his life to making the world a better place, just like it would make me happy, if we all set out to do the same. What would make me happy is no one cheering Luke on extra, because other people are being too tough on little Luke-y. Aww.....the poor little sexual assault perpetrator. Extra cheers for him! At this point, legally, there is nothing to be done. What remains is how we act. When people stop talking logically and go immediately into half-cocked conspiracy theory mode, I feel compelled to post. When people cheer extra for poor little Luke-y, because he got dealt a bad hand, the world is turned upside down. It is so perverse and backward. Go Beavs! I too have kids, and the "mis-remembering" I was referring to was being coached on what to say by a parent. And yes, if a 15/16 year old did that to my daughter, beyond a shadow of a doubt, I am not so sure he would be physically able to play D1 baseball after that. I get it. Benton county doing their job is fine, but not knowing what the reporting requirements are is not fine. Law enforcement is to be fully versed and up to date on all laws - claiming ignorance or being confused doesn't cut it. I agree doing interviews is probably not the smartest thing LH should be doing right now. But, as you well know, damned if you do, damned if you don't. To brush off the press, refuse to answer questions, is akin to an admission of guilt in our rush to judgement society. If you do not defend yourself, you will be crucified in the eyes of the public - unfortunately. In the end, I wish he would have either fought it, if the allegations are not true, or been proven guilty beyond a shadow of doubt. This should be a wake up call to anyone that is a victim to go get checked immediately after something happens. It is the lack of forensic evidence at this point that is creating the divide in opinion on what happened. Combined with no other incidents that would indicate there is a pattern here. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 9, 2018 17:23:23 GMT -8
You want us to pretend that we cannot make logical inferences about a known set of facts? We should shake up a Magic 8-Ball and base our opinion on the subject on the outcome? The State of Washington chapter has closed its book on Luke Heimlich. However, the Luke Heimlich story will continue into time immemorial, just like every other embarrassing character, who has ever donned the black-and-orange. Luke Heimlich is the current gay sheep theft. Unless you think CPC and his teammates are clueless and poor judges of character - I disagree. The only people who really care at this point are the press (for money) and those who like to play the fake moral outrage game. Or, those who have been associated with an unfortunate event like this, that impacted them personally. I am sorry Wilky if you are in one of these categories. With all of the information available that I have read, there is still reasonable doubt on what did or did not happen - regardless of how he plead. I hear crickets from Luke Heimlich's teammates. I know that CPC has said that Luke Heimlich has been a great guy, since he got to Corvallis. I believe CPC. I believe what he says. However, being a good guy in Corvallis does not offset sexually assaulting a 4-6 year old relative. Also, if you think that my moral outrage is fake, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. As a father of three, I have all of the sympathy in the world for Ms. Heimlich and Josh and the former Mrs. Heimlich. Hurt my children, and I will set the world on fire to ensure that justice is done. I have not experienced a high school punk doing something to me personally. However, I know people, who have had abominable things done to them. Who are not the same people. Who have been robbed of their childhood. I could not be there for them and that hurts. But I can be there for Josh Heimlich and his daughter and the former Mrs. Heimlich. I am nauseated that we have a Luke Heimlich trotting out once a week with OSU written across his chest. The letters and the words "Oregon State University" mean that much less every time he takes the field. Luke Heimlich by his own admission pled guilty to molesting his niece. He wrote a letter of apology to his niece, in which he apologized for molesting her, once again admitting guilt in the process. (You can spin them however you would like, but they occurred.) The mother and father of the niece believed the niece. The father of the niece, Luke's brother will not speak to Luke. The mother of the niece wants to see Luke kicked off the Oregon State baseball team. Luke Heimlich waited for his case to be sealed before giving a single interview. Luke Heimlich refuses to divulge all documents about his case. Luke Heimlich gave an interview to the "New York Times" to try and boost his draft stock. About .027% (roughly 1 in 3700) of criminals are wrongly convicted (this includes pleading guilty). Among sexual assault and violent crime cases, child sex abuse has the lowest rate of wrongful conviction. Racial minorities are more than three times more likely to be wrongfully convicted than an individual like Luke Heimlich. Facts, facts, more facts, and statistics. The odds of the allegations against Luke Heimlich being untrue are very low, almost impossibly low. There is always a chance, but I find it highly unlikely. In the end, it comes to reasonable doubt. Reasonable is defined as what the average reasonable person determines to be reasonable. If you find there to be reasonable doubt, there is in your world. I just disagree. And maybe that is where we wind up. |
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dK
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Post by dK on May 9, 2018 19:28:43 GMT -8
I know where the .027% figure came from. A duck who happens to be a DA here in Oregon. It is a figure that is vigorously contested by real experts in the field who estimate the rate of false convictions is more in the range of 4 to 9%. When about 95% of felonies are settled by plea bargains where no evidence is produced in court, it is really a crap shoot to come up with accurate estimates of false conviction.
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Post by atownbeaver on May 10, 2018 7:35:20 GMT -8
I know where the .027% figure came from. A duck who happens to be a DA here in Oregon. It is a figure that is vigorously contested by real experts in the field who estimate the rate of false convictions is more in the range of 4 to 9%. When about 95% of felonies are settled by plea bargains where no evidence is produced in court, it is really a crap shoot to come up with accurate estimates of false conviction. It is a pretty damn spurious statistic. And one easily picked apart. Personally, I wouldn't trust a DA as far as I could throw him to tell me just how damn good of a job DAs do... The Innocence Project alone has exonerated 356 people to date using DNA evidence. 20 of which were on death row. Think about that for a bit. 20 people were almost killed (murdered really) by the state under completely false pretenses. and... 40 of those 356 people proven innocence from DNA testing had plead guilty to their crimes. 40 people, proven innocent, took plea deals to significant crimes. And of course... 220 of the 356 people were African American. 70% of all those exonerated involved the wrongly accused being misidentified by eye witnesses. The same Innocence Project uses their own proven innocent cases to extrapolate that at least 1% of the prison population is falsely accused. And while that number is certainly low, it is not insignificant, and it is nearly 37x more than the 0.027% figure... And what is worth pointing out is the prison population is only a subset of all crimes. And likely the subset where the rate of rightful conviction is better. When the consequence (the plea deal) involves dodging prison time, it is pretty easy to see more and more innocent people would just take deal. And I get it, 356 people across the nation in 25 years is pretty damn small, but you have to remember it is REALLY hard opening up convicted cases and going back into it. IP gets hundreds of cases referred to them, most of them they close because they cannot act on them. 30% of the cases they close are due to evidence being lost or destroyed. www.innocenceproject.org/dna-exonerations-in-the-united-states/ |
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. You are one of the best posters on here, and I appreciate most everything you have to say. No intent to make this political, just pointing out some of the inconsistencies of some posters on here that wish to see LH kicked off the team, and perpetually embarrassed and punished, when the court in Washington has basically wiped the slate clean and closed the matter. There are lots of times I shake my head at the sentence reduction/ elimination for a proven violent crime - with forensic evidence - because the "experts" say they have rehabilitated themselves - they are let go - then do it again. In this case, it was a one time incident, no real hard evidence, and according to the "experts", based on LH's age, evaluation and counseling, even IF it did happen, very slim chance it happens again. 
