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Post by sagebrush on Aug 31, 2017 19:30:57 GMT -8
I'll give you one: Jonathan Smith, QB of the 2001 Fiesta Bowl Champions that stomped the dog too out of notre dame and was probably, on the last week end of the season, the best team in the country. And, he was a team leader.
John Witte was previously discussed. 1956 consensus AA as an OT, played in CFL, educator and coach in Oregon (couple of which was in Sweet Home in the mid 60's Great teacher and good guy). Also, 2ND PLACE IN NCAA IN WRESTLING AS A FRESHMAN. Korean war vet.
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Post by orangeattack on Sept 1, 2017 10:25:06 GMT -8
I'll give you one: Jonathan Smith, QB of the 2001 Fiesta Bowl Champions that stomped the dog too out of notre dame and was probably, on the last week end of the season, the best team in the country. And, he was a team leader. John Witte was previously discussed. 1956 consensus AA as an OT, played in CFL, educator and coach in Oregon (couple of which was in Sweet Home in the mid 60's Great teacher and good guy). Also, 2ND PLACE IN NCAA IN WRESTLING AS A FRESHMAN. Korean war vet. I will forever love Smitty but he was a guy who benefited from a monster receiving corps and, at the time, an oddball offense. St. Dennis' spread offense was lethal at that point in time, Smitty operated it to perfection but he was also a guy who had some of the most horrific outings I've ever seen lol. He had a career 50% completion rate. Great leader, a guy who was more than the sum of his parts for sure.. but he doesn't belong in the same category as DA, Moore, Wilhelm, Mannion etc. I guess this is just the difference between "Legend" and "All Time Great". Smitty is a Legend.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Sept 1, 2017 12:46:13 GMT -8
12 Greatest Oregon State players of their time:
1. Terry Baker (1960-1962) 2. Joseph "The Gray Ghost" Gray (1935-1937) 3. Ken Carpenter (1946-1949) 4. Brandin Cooks (2011-2013) 5. Bob Dethman (1939-1941) 6. Steven Jackson (2001-2003) 7. Don Samuel (1946-1948) 8. Bill "Earthquake" Enyart (1966-1968) 9. Eberle "Elbie" Schultz (1937-1939) 10. Bob Grim (1964-1966) 11. Nick Barnett (1999-2002) 12. Lloyd Wickett (1940-1942)
I noticed that your list is the "12 Greatest Oregon State players of their time". So, for instance, you only have Brandin Cooks in the 20-teens and only have Nick Barnett from the turn of the millennium, etc. Maybe you already did this and I missed it, but what would be your list of the 12 Greatest OSU players of all time? I was mostly throwing this out there to try and get some conversation going on some of the older guys. These best of all time lists usually have a recent slant. Take Terry Baker. He is almost always going to be tops on this list, because he was phenomenal for his time. However, if he was playing in say 1986, would he have beat out Wilhelm? Or, if he had played in 2013, would he have beat out Mannion? My money is on no to both. Or, you could go the other route, if Baker was around in 1995, would he have beat out Tim Alexander? My money is again on no. Baker may have been more well-rounded than the three, but he was small and he did not fit neatly into the offenses that teams ran after the rules changes in the early 80s. In my mind, the three greatest quarterbacks in Oregon State are, in order, Wilhelm, Mannion, and Anderson. After that, it gets murkier, depending on what you value. More passing-oriented, Moore. A better runner, Alexander. More balanced, Baker. Looking at the foregoing in a different way, though, who was the greatest quarterback before Wilhelm? Undoubtedly, my answer is Baker. The Gray Ghost was a phenomenal single-wing halfback, but was he better than Baker at the position? No. Undoubtedly, no. Baker's 1960 season as a single-wing halfback is what made Prothro switch to the more modern, T-formation in 1961, which set the stage for Terry Baker to become Terry Baker. However, the T-formation was not really even a thing before Stanford's "Wow Boys" popularized it in 1940, so Gray never really got to showcase his talents as a true quarterback. Ken Carpenter was more of a true halfback. Carpenter was a WWII veteran, who wound up playing 11 years in the NFL, CFL, and AFL, playing both HB and WR. He was an NFL champion and pro-bowler, who left for the CFL as part of the rift between owners and players that would ultimately lead to the creation of the AFL. He was a three-time CFL All-Star. When the Denver Broncos were created in 1960 in the AFL, he returned to America to play WR. Most of the records that Terry Baker broke were Carpenter's. However, Baker was not able to break most of Carpenter's rushing records. Carpenter's total yardage record was not broken until Ken Simonton finally broke it, during the 2001 Fiesta Bowl run. Brandin Cooks is the best receiver in Oregon State history. He is arguably the greatest Beaver offensive player, as well. Phenomenal athlete. Cooks is probably tops on my personal list. I don't think most of us realized how special what we were watching actually was. The fact that Cooks was able to put up the numbers that he did without a rushing attack and usually in double-coverage........
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Post by atownbeaver on Sept 1, 2017 13:05:13 GMT -8
I noticed that your list is the "12 Greatest Oregon State players of their time". So, for instance, you only have Brandin Cooks in the 20-teens and only have Nick Barnett from the turn of the millennium, etc. Maybe you already did this and I missed it, but what would be your list of the 12 Greatest OSU players of all time? I was mostly throwing this out there to try and get some conversation going on some of the older guys. These best of all time lists usually have a recent slant. Take Terry Baker. He is almost always going to be tops on this list, because he was phenomenal for his time. However, if he was playing in say 1986, would he have beat out Wilhelm? Or, if he had played in 2013, would he have beat out Mannion? My money is on no to both. Or, you could go the other route, if Baker was around in 1995, would he have beat out Tim Alexander? My money is again on no. Baker may have been more well-rounded than the three, but he was small and he did not fit neatly into the offenses that teams ran after the rules changes in the early 80s. In my mind, the three greatest quarterbacks in Oregon State are, in order, Wilhelm, Mannion, and Anderson. After that, it gets murkier, depending on what you value. More passing-oriented, Moore. A better runner, Alexander. More balanced, Baker. Looking at the foregoing in a different way, though, who was the greatest quarterback before Wilhelm? Undoubtedly, my answer is Baker. The Gray Ghost was a phenomenal single-wing halfback, but was he better than Baker at the position? No. Undoubtedly, no. Baker's 1960 season as a single-wing halfback is what made Prothro switch to the more modern, T-formation in 1961, which set the stage for Terry Baker to become Terry Baker. However, the T-formation was not really even a thing before Stanford's "Wow Boys" popularized it in 1940, so Gray never really got to showcase his talents as a true quarterback. Ken Carpenter was more of a true halfback. Carpenter was a WWII veteran, who wound up playing 11 years in the NFL, CFL, and AFL, playing both HB and WR. He was an NFL champion and pro-bowler, who left for the CFL as part of the rift between owners and players that would ultimately lead to the creation of the AFL. He was a three-time CFL All-Star. When the Denver Broncos were created in 1960 in the AFL, he returned to America to play WR. Most of the records that Terry Baker broke were Carpenter's. However, Baker was not able to break most of Carpenter's rushing records. Carpenter's total yardage record was not broken until Ken Simonton finally broke it, during the 2001 Fiesta Bowl run. Brandin Cooks is the best receiver in Oregon State history. He is arguably the greatest Beaver offensive player, as well. Phenomenal athlete. Cooks is probably tops on my personal list. I don't think most of us realized how special what we were watching actually was. The fact that Cooks was able to put up the numbers that he did without a rushing attack and usually in double-coverage........ My fear is that Nall could be that caliber of generational talent... and is just being squandered.
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Post by orangeattack on Sept 1, 2017 13:12:42 GMT -8
I was mostly throwing this out there to try and get some conversation going on some of the older guys. These best of all time lists usually have a recent slant. Take Terry Baker. He is almost always going to be tops on this list, because he was phenomenal for his time. However, if he was playing in say 1986, would he have beat out Wilhelm? Or, if he had played in 2013, would he have beat out Mannion? My money is on no to both. Or, you could go the other route, if Baker was around in 1995, would he have beat out Tim Alexander? My money is again on no. Baker may have been more well-rounded than the three, but he was small and he did not fit neatly into the offenses that teams ran after the rules changes in the early 80s. In my mind, the three greatest quarterbacks in Oregon State are, in order, Wilhelm, Mannion, and Anderson. After that, it gets murkier, depending on what you value. More passing-oriented, Moore. A better runner, Alexander. More balanced, Baker. Looking at the foregoing in a different way, though, who was the greatest quarterback before Wilhelm? Undoubtedly, my answer is Baker. The Gray Ghost was a phenomenal single-wing halfback, but was he better than Baker at the position? No. Undoubtedly, no. Baker's 1960 season as a single-wing halfback is what made Prothro switch to the more modern, T-formation in 1961, which set the stage for Terry Baker to become Terry Baker. However, the T-formation was not really even a thing before Stanford's "Wow Boys" popularized it in 1940, so Gray never really got to showcase his talents as a true quarterback. Ken Carpenter was more of a true halfback. Carpenter was a WWII veteran, who wound up playing 11 years in the NFL, CFL, and AFL, playing both HB and WR. He was an NFL champion and pro-bowler, who left for the CFL as part of the rift between owners and players that would ultimately lead to the creation of the AFL. He was a three-time CFL All-Star. When the Denver Broncos were created in 1960 in the AFL, he returned to America to play WR. Most of the records that Terry Baker broke were Carpenter's. However, Baker was not able to break most of Carpenter's rushing records. Carpenter's total yardage record was not broken until Ken Simonton finally broke it, during the 2001 Fiesta Bowl run. Brandin Cooks is the best receiver in Oregon State history. He is arguably the greatest Beaver offensive player, as well. Phenomenal athlete. Cooks is probably tops on my personal list. I don't think most of us realized how special what we were watching actually was. The fact that Cooks was able to put up the numbers that he did without a rushing attack and usually in double-coverage........ My fear is that Nall could be that caliber of generational talent... and is just being squandered. so far his durability has been a little too suspect to annoint him as a generational talent IYAOA
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Post by nabeav on Sept 1, 2017 13:20:37 GMT -8
Mike Hass had many of the similar problems Cooks did.
In 2013, Cooks caught 31% of all completions for 36% of all receiving yards and 42% of touchdowns and did it on a team that only rushed for 94.4 yards per game (3.5ypc)
In 2004, Hass caught 30% of all completions for 32% of all receiving yards and 24% of touchdowns and did it on a team that only rushed for 70.7 yards per game (2.2 ypc)
Hass definitely didn't have the nose for the end zone like Cooks (also Joe Newton was by far the preferred red zone target on that team), but he had Dwight freaking Wright running the ball. We also threw the ball 17% more than we did in 2004. As amazing as Brandin Cooks was, Mike Hass was quite literally our only offensive weapon in 2004, and did not have the benefit of catching screen passes at the line of scrimmage before the defense could even get their hands on him. Hass's career was one of the most impressive things I've ever seen at OSU......especially given he did it without the insane speed Brandin Cooks was blessed with. Perhaps the most impressive thing of all is that Hass averaged over 3 yards more per reception than Cooks did.
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Post by fumblerooski on Sept 1, 2017 13:27:57 GMT -8
We ALMOST had Paea-Suh. That would've been good. I still think about that every once in a while. That would have been a hell of a defensive line. At the risk of this post turning into a joke, you can take the "what if" a little further and add that Simi Kuli would have been on the team as well. With Gabe Miller at the other end, we would have been pretty stout up front. That 2009 team went 8-5 and had a shot to make the Rose Bowl. What could have been...
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Post by tnarg33 on Sept 1, 2017 14:34:05 GMT -8
Mike Hass had many of the similar problems Cooks did. In 2013, Cooks caught 31% of all completions for 36% of all receiving yards and 42% of touchdowns and did it on a team that only rushed for 94.4 yards per game (3.5ypc) In 2004, Hass caught 30% of all completions for 32% of all receiving yards and 24% of touchdowns and did it on a team that only rushed for 70.7 yards per game (2.2 ypc) Hass definitely didn't have the nose for the end zone like Cooks (also Joe Newton was by far the preferred red zone target on that team), but he had Dwight freaking Wright running the ball. We also threw the ball 17% more than we did in 2004. As amazing as Brandin Cooks was, Mike Hass was quite literally our only offensive weapon in 2004, and did not have the benefit of catching screen passes at the line of scrimmage before the defense could even get their hands on him. Hass's career was one of the most impressive things I've ever seen at OSU......especially given he did it without the insane speed Brandin Cooks was blessed with. Perhaps the most impressive thing of all is that Hass averaged over 3 yards more per reception than Cooks did. Given your personal feelings about Hass it's nice to see you recognize the outstanding if not improbable career that he had. We threw to Cooks a ton in '13 but I never had the feeling like in '04/'05 when it was "3rd and Hass" and they still couldn't stop it.
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Post by ag87 on Sept 1, 2017 15:25:50 GMT -8
Take Terry Baker. He is almost always going to be tops on this list, because he was phenomenal for his time. However, if he was playing in say 1986, would he have beat out Wilhelm? Or, if he had played in 2013, would he have beat out Mannion? My money is on no to both. Or, you could go the other route, if Baker was around in 1995, would he have beat out Tim Alexander? My money is again on no. Baker may have been more well-rounded than the three, but he was small and he did not fit neatly into the offenses that teams ran after the rules changes in the early 80s. I've met Terry Baker a couple of times. The first time he was probably 45. I don't think he is small. Maybe 6'3? On film, he looks thin but that is a product of the times and playing when no one was lifting. I'm guessing if he graduated from Jefferson High School in 2001, he would have been 230# by 2005. Oh, and no way is Wilhelm #1. Sean Mannion has more mobility. I think Wilhelm placed 5th in the state wrestling meet his senior year at 191 so he has that going for him. Of the OSU quarterbacks I have seen he is behind Anderson, Moore, and Mannion. I'd say he is tied with Canfield. Back to Baker - I think he is comparable in talent and size to Colin Kaepernick. OSU did not want Kaepernick out of high school because he was 6'3, 170#, and had a funny throwing motion. Obviously, he ran well. After five years in Reno, Kaepernick had built himself up to #225 and looked like a legit D-1 passer. Given those circumstances Baker may have done the same. Or he may have been a linebacker/Safety or a hybrid tight end/wide out.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Sept 1, 2017 17:14:55 GMT -8
A story about Wilhelm. It might be on the Internet somewhere. His second or third year here he was frustrated that people were questioning his toughness after playing through injuries.
The team had a "challenge" night and he challenged a freshman lineman who was ranked 2nd in the State of California (from what I recall) in the heavyweight division for wrestling to a wrestling match. Pinned him.
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