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Post by atownbeaver on Jun 21, 2017 14:51:39 GMT -8
Proof is in the pudding on this sort of thing. Right now, Oregon is kicking our ass up and down the block and it isn't even close. they have the 7th ranked class in the nation and we are in the 70's. we aren't close, we aren't competing heck we aren't in the same zip code. That guy that some would argue had recruiting in the toilet here is hitting it out of the park at Nebraska. Even with some recent recruit drama, he has a class we'd all shank an old lady to have. Fluffing sunshine up our butts about improving recruiting is just that. Evidence is not there. product on the field is not there. and as others have mentioned it is CRITICALLY not there at the difficult and crucial spots to recruit at. QB, OL, DL. netting a 4* WR is great... or a 4* safety, but it is not as paradigm shifting as getting the 4* QB or lineman. MAN I HATE losing to tsdtr... but I have to agree, taggart has come out guns a blazing... just more evidence that substance doesn't much matter, it is ALL about the bling! Blarg, back to the good old days (back??? it has always been this way) of hoping our coaches can coach up those 2 and 3 star recruits, and find that diamond in the rough! location, location, location. Oregon never use to be one. Oregon was a peer in ineptitude. Oregon (Phil Knight and company) decided to do something about it. Money, media blitz, attention and perception. Oregon made themselves into a big name before they ever were one. They were arguable not significantly better than us from 1999-2008... but nobody would of realized that because they had massive downtown Manhattan billboards of Joey 5 Pick. Oregon faked it until they make(d) it. and spent a mountain of cash along the way. and look. even after a 4-8 disaster of a season for them, they never missed a beat. new coach, new energy and now completely new highs in recruiting. I would not be shocked to see them at 8 wins and a bowl game next year and back in the conversation for league winner in 2 or 3. UW and USC are big dogs now, but it will not be a rebuild at Oregon... We did not capture our new energy in any way, shape or form, and then fell completely on our faces with a 2-10 opening campaign.
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Post by spudbeaver on Jun 21, 2017 17:52:01 GMT -8
MAN I HATE losing to tsdtr... but I have to agree, taggart has come out guns a blazing... just more evidence that substance doesn't much matter, it is ALL about the bling! Blarg, back to the good old days (back??? it has always been this way) of hoping our coaches can coach up those 2 and 3 star recruits, and find that diamond in the rough! location, location, location. Oregon never use to be one. Oregon was a peer in ineptitude. Oregon (Phil Knight and company) decided to do something about it. Money, media blitz, attention and perception. Oregon made themselves into a big name before they ever were one. They were arguable not significantly better than us from 1999-2008... but nobody would of realized that because they had massive downtown Manhattan billboards of Joey 5 Pick. Oregon faked it until they make(d) it. and spent a mountain of cash along the way. and look. even after a 4-8 disaster of a season for them, they never missed a beat. new coach, new energy and now completely new highs in recruiting. I would not be shocked to see them at 8 wins and a bowl game next year and back in the conversation for league winner in 2 or 3. UW and USC are big dogs now, but it will not be a rebuild at Oregon... We did not capture our new energy in any way, shape or form, and then fell completely on our faces with a 2-10 opening campaign. Sounds like someone's not respecting the process!
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Post by nabeav on Jun 21, 2017 19:37:48 GMT -8
atownbeaver - correct. You shank someone with a shiv. This really has to be a bowl season I think. Has. To. We've got a chance right now to take back the state a little bit, but if we stub our toe, and they bring in the college football equivalent of the Fab 5 down the road next season, we are gonna get forgotten.
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Post by atownbeaver on Jun 22, 2017 7:34:02 GMT -8
atownbeaver - correct. You shank someone with a shiv. This really has to be a bowl season I think. Has. To. We've got a chance right now to take back the state a little bit, but if we stub our toe, and they bring in the college football equivalent of the Fab 5 down the road next season, we are gonna get forgotten. We have the TINIEST of little window's right now to exert ourselves. that window is rapidly closing with every Willie Taggart 4* commit he is nailing.... and it is ALOT of them. That is why there is hand wringing and angst. February is a long ways off, but right now our recruiting is laughable compared to them. We need to be a bowl team and win the civil war in Eugene this year. musts to wrestle our selves back into the conversation. a must to not be an afterthought team and a must to start winning recruiting battles for real. battles for those very hard to land stud OL and DL players we need. Not another 6 foot 200 lb 4.5 40 utility kid which are literally growing on trees these days.
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Post by RenoBeaver on Jun 22, 2017 10:23:02 GMT -8
atownbeaver - correct. You shank someone with a shiv. This really has to be a bowl season I think. Has. To. We've got a chance right now to take back the state a little bit, but if we stub our toe, and they bring in the college football equivalent of the Fab 5 down the road next season, we are gonna get forgotten. We have the TINIEST of little window's right now to exert ourselves. that window is rapidly closing with every Willie Taggart 4* commit he is nailing.... and it is ALOT of them. That is why there is hand wringing and angst. February is a long ways off, but right now our recruiting is laughable compared to them. We need to be a bowl team and win the civil war in Eugene this year. musts to wrestle our selves back into the conversation. a must to not be an afterthought team and a must to start winning recruiting battles for real. battles for those very hard to land stud OL and DL players we need. Not another 6 foot 200 lb 4.5 40 utility kid which are literally growing on trees these days. First off, I'm going to preach patience, since that's all we have to hang our hat on right now.
Secondly, we all know OS is never going to be Oregon, certainly never going to be UW, USC, Stanford, or even UCLA, with its decades of underachievement. Personally think we need to just hold tight and let CGA develop an "identity" recruiting scheme and model OSU after Utah, or even Boise State, with its lack of competition but always competitive underdog spirit.
This idea that OS has to make its move NOW because Oregon is slaying it recruiting is IMO nonsense. Let's not forget, last year's 4-8 Duck team was filled with high 3 and 4 star recruits, still gotta coach them up. It takes time to develop a reputation, and certainly takes time to build on that. The mindset I think CGA is instilling IS competition and toughness, that's not easy to teach to anybody, much less 18 and 19 year old kids, many whom have been pampered their entire lives because of their athleticism.
It's OK for Oregon State to take baby steps. Agreed it needs to keep showing improvement, and think it will, which will translate into better recruits. But we are never going to be a top 20 program. Ever. If we can sneak into that top 30-35, that's a mountain out of a molehill. But if we can get to that top 30, then an occasional run at double digit win seasons is possible.
It's June, 2017. Oregon State is going to win at least 7 games by December, and by February it's going to land 2 or 3 4 star recruits and a bunch of 3 stars, and it's going to keep improving, slowly, steadily.
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Post by nabeav on Jun 22, 2017 12:55:15 GMT -8
But we are never going to be a top 20 program. Ever. If we can sneak into that top 30-35, that's a mountain out of a molehill. But if we can get to that top 30, then an occasional run at double digit win seasons is possible. Alright now I'm going to go on my own atownbeaver style rant. Yes, this is gonna be about that former coach whose name triggers everyone so much around here. That statement above by lvbeaver is exactly what we had under the previous regime. That's what we were, and it wasn't good enough for anyone around here. During a season in which we won the second highest number of games in program history, people were calling for his firing with signs in the stands. So no, I'm not going to preach patience and baby steps. We did that for 15 years, and it wasn't good enough. GA was brought in to do better. Getting us back to competitive 8-4 seasons where we are on the outskirts of the top 25 is no longer the bar. That's where we were. We had some good years where we were one game away from the Rose Bowl, and we had some bad years (2013-14), but for the most part, we lived in that 8-4 sweet spot for a good 15 years. Nobody was happy there. It blows me away that it is only after a couple of 2-10/4-8 seasons that people are starting to realize that "we will never be Oregon or USC or Washington." Remember how furious everyone was with that contract that tacked on an extra year with every bowl performance? We extended the current coach after meeting the requisite number of wins for a bowl game too....only it took him two years to win them. The great tempering of expectations with our football program continues.
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Post by RenoBeaver on Jun 22, 2017 13:38:30 GMT -8
But we are never going to be a top 20 program. Ever. If we can sneak into that top 30-35, that's a mountain out of a molehill. But if we can get to that top 30, then an occasional run at double digit win seasons is possible. Alright now I'm going to go on my own atownbeaver style rant. Yes, this is gonna be about that former coach whose name triggers everyone so much around here. That statement above by lvbeaver is exactly what we had under the previous regime. That's what we were, and it wasn't good enough for anyone around here. During a season in which we won the second highest number of games in program history, people were calling for his firing with signs in the stands. So no, I'm not going to preach patience and baby steps. We did that for 15 years, and it wasn't good enough. GA was brought in to do better. Getting us back to competitive 8-4 seasons where we are on the outskirts of the top 25 is no longer the bar. That's where we were. We had some good years where we were one game away from the Rose Bowl, and we had some bad years (2013-14), but for the most part, we lived in that 8-4 sweet spot for a good 15 years. Nobody was happy there. It blows me away that it is only after a couple of 2-10/4-8 seasons that people are starting to realize that "we will never be Oregon or USC or Washington." Remember how furious everyone was with that contract that tacked on an extra year with every bowl performance? We extended the current coach after meeting the requisite number of wins for a bowl game too....only it took him two years to win them. The great tempering of expectations with our football program continues. Thursday at 2:30, let me buy you a shot.
Now, I'd say half this board, if not more, are huge Riley fans. So saying he wasn't good enough for anyone is a gross overstatement. The other 51% thought it was time for change, a small % thinking he's overrated. I'm a huge Riley fan, but I felt it was time for change...top down change, and I don't regret that happening one bit. So I'm extremely happy for Riley, I'm happy with CGA as the coach, despite the mistakes and pitfalls, but we absolutely had that under Riley too, just a different brand of mistakes and pitfalls. Not going to get into comparing the two, the both have their plusses and minuses.
As for the top 30 program thing, Riley had OSU in that range 2004 through 2008, but he most certainly wasn't when Pac 10 expanded to 12 (other than one good year), but that's been deadhorsekicked time and again so no need to go into it. To be honest, he's not there at Nebraska either, but the potential to get there is certainly looking bright.
It's a new era, embrace it! Cheer for Riley to finally win a conference championship! Root hard for the BEAVERS, I'd hope you do that no matter who the coach is.
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Post by gzrbvr on Jun 22, 2017 14:05:00 GMT -8
Just remember---Rueck will never get us into contention for even a Pac12 title, Pat Casey will never have a successful baseball program in this rainy climate, etc, etc, etc. It can't be done here, blah, blah, blah.
Isn't it funny how the attitude of the coach correlates with success?? We have CGA now, he is trying to make strides--I saw progress at the end of last year. Let him play out his hand and see what he can do. What I hear is that he is shooting for higher than just being average. Or, we could switch tracks and see if we can get another Avezzano. How did that one work out?? Or a Fertig??? As a twist on the old song goes, "Starting over is hard to do."
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Post by nabeav on Jun 22, 2017 14:12:42 GMT -8
Root hard for the BEAVERS, I'd hope you do that no matter who the coach is. Always. It's not like I want GA to fail.....more like I'm hoping he proves me wrong. I wasn't calling you out as those are your personal feelings...sorry if it came off that way.
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Post by nabeav on Jun 22, 2017 14:29:13 GMT -8
Just remember---Rueck will never get us into contention for even a Pac12 title, Pat Casey will never have a successful baseball program in this rainy climate, etc, etc, etc. It can't be done here, blah, blah, blah. Isn't it funny how the attitude of the coach correlates with success?? We have CGA now, he is trying to make strides--I saw progress at the end of last year. Let him play out his hand and see what he can do. What I hear is that he is shooting for higher than just being average. Or, we could switch tracks and see if we can get another Avezzano. How did that one work out?? Or a Fertig??? As a twist on the old song goes, "Starting over is hard to do." Look at the demographics of the football program vs. those of the baseball and women's basketball team, then let me know if you see any differences in the big time recruits who choose Oregon State. A full 66% of the baseball team is from the Pacific Northwest. 33% of the women's basketball team. There are currently 23 football players on the roster (out of 85 listed) who hail from Oregon, Washington, or Idaho.....and I'd venture to guess that five or less of those are currently on scholarship. Recruiting a football team is so different from recruiting a baseball or basketball team, it's like comparing putting together an actual car to putting together a model out of Legos.
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Post by TheGlove on Jun 22, 2017 16:04:17 GMT -8
Just remember---Rueck will never get us into contention for even a Pac12 title, Pat Casey will never have a successful baseball program in this rainy climate, etc, etc, etc. It can't be done here, blah, blah, blah. Isn't it funny how the attitude of the coach correlates with success?? We have CGA now, he is trying to make strides--I saw progress at the end of last year. Let him play out his hand and see what he can do. What I hear is that he is shooting for higher than just being average. Or, we could switch tracks and see if we can get another Avezzano. How did that one work out?? Or a Fertig??? As a twist on the old song goes, "Starting over is hard to do." Look at the demographics of the football program vs. those of the baseball and women's basketball team, then let me know if you see any differences in the big time recruits who choose Oregon State. A full 66% of the baseball team is from the Pacific Northwest. 33% of the women's basketball team. There are currently 23 football players on the roster (out of 85 listed) who hail from Oregon, Washington, or Idaho.....and I'd venture to guess that five or less of those are currently on scholarship. Recruiting a football team is so different from recruiting a baseball or basketball team, it's like comparing putting together an actual car to putting together a model out of Legos. This is just excuse making and a loser's attitude.
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Post by TheGlove on Jun 22, 2017 16:07:08 GMT -8
Alright now I'm going to go on my own atownbeaver style rant. Yes, this is gonna be about that former coach whose name triggers everyone so much around here. That statement above by lvbeaver is exactly what we had under the previous regime. That's what we were, and it wasn't good enough for anyone around here. During a season in which we won the second highest number of games in program history, people were calling for his firing with signs in the stands. So no, I'm not going to preach patience and baby steps. We did that for 15 years, and it wasn't good enough. GA was brought in to do better. Getting us back to competitive 8-4 seasons where we are on the outskirts of the top 25 is no longer the bar. That's where we were. We had some good years where we were one game away from the Rose Bowl, and we had some bad years (2013-14), but for the most part, we lived in that 8-4 sweet spot for a good 15 years. Nobody was happy there. It blows me away that it is only after a couple of 2-10/4-8 seasons that people are starting to realize that "we will never be Oregon or USC or Washington." Remember how furious everyone was with that contract that tacked on an extra year with every bowl performance? We extended the current coach after meeting the requisite number of wins for a bowl game too....only it took him two years to win them. The great tempering of expectations with our football program continues. Thursday at 2:30, let me buy you a shot.
Now, I'd say half this board, if not more, are huge Riley fans. So saying he wasn't good enough for anyone is a gross overstatement. The other 51% thought it was time for change, a small % thinking he's overrated. I'm a huge Riley fan, but I felt it was time for change...top down change, and I don't regret that happening one bit. So I'm extremely happy for Riley, I'm happy with CGA as the coach, despite the mistakes and pitfalls, but we absolutely had that under Riley too, just a different brand of mistakes and pitfalls. Not going to get into comparing the two, the both have their plusses and minuses.
As for the top 30 program thing, Riley had OSU in that range 2004 through 2008, but he most certainly wasn't when Pac 10 expanded to 12 (other than one good year), but that's been deadhorsekicked time and again so no need to go into it. To be honest, he's not there at Nebraska either, but the potential to get there is certainly looking bright.
It's a new era, embrace it! Cheer for Riley to finally win a conference championship! Root hard for the BEAVERS, I'd hope you do that no matter who the coach is.
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Post by nabeav on Jun 23, 2017 7:28:43 GMT -8
Just saying, it's harder to recruit a good football team to Corvallis than almost any other sport. It was hard to recruit a football team in Eugene until they started giving them 87 pairs of free shoes and installing flatscreens in their gym lockers.
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Post by atownbeaver on Jun 23, 2017 7:37:04 GMT -8
Look at the demographics of the football program vs. those of the baseball and women's basketball team, then let me know if you see any differences in the big time recruits who choose Oregon State. A full 66% of the baseball team is from the Pacific Northwest. 33% of the women's basketball team. There are currently 23 football players on the roster (out of 85 listed) who hail from Oregon, Washington, or Idaho.....and I'd venture to guess that five or less of those are currently on scholarship. Recruiting a football team is so different from recruiting a baseball or basketball team, it's like comparing putting together an actual car to putting together a model out of Legos. This is just excuse making and a loser's attitude. That is kind of like saying, the reason i am poor is because I work at Mcdonalds, and your out of touch baby boomer dad saying you just need to work more hours! Someday you'll make shift manager and get a $0.25/hr raise! No man, what I am saying is I gotta stay in school and get a new job! I gotta change something! It is not an excuse... it is the bitter punch of reality in the face. I also want to be clear about this... OSU has to do the work. not just CGA. I have banged this drum for 10 years now. Ask OA. The coach and program matters of course, but not nearly as much as the overall school. It is exactly why Oregon has a #7 class right now, from a coach that has never had a national ranked class over 58 (prior 69 and 70 and unranked...) and has recruited exactly 2 4* players in his entire career. That coach has 7 4* commits right now. A life time 60's ranked coach that averaged a 4 star player maybe every other year here at Oregon State currently has the #15 class in the nation with 6 4* recruits at Nebraska. You can't ignore that evidence. excuses? no, reality. Unless we suddenly drop Nick Saban in Corvallis, there are incredibly few coaches that are going to move the needle on recruiting alone. GA can have all the process he wants, but until Oregon State finishes a football stadium, decides to have grown up marketing, game day experiences, until we get apparel deals that appeal to young kids... until we can somehow create an identity for us that is unique and a brand kids want to associate with... we are not going to get there. And of course, CGA needs to win games. Even at Nike U, if they go 4-8 again this year, and 4-8 again... they will not survive that on the recruiting front. So yeah. I wish we could just say HEY Casey can do it! Rueck can do it! so can CGA. but NABEAV is right. huge difference in recruiting 85 players for a game 11 people play at a time and an easy 45 will rotate though. Different dynamic and expectations to build. Baseball has 11 shared scholarships for 35 slots. Basketball has something like 12 roster spots period....
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Post by gzrbvr on Jun 23, 2017 10:50:32 GMT -8
This is just excuse making and a loser's attitude. That is kind of like saying, the reason i am poor is because I work at Mcdonalds, and your out of touch baby boomer dad saying you just need to work more hours! Someday you'll make shift manager and get a $0.25/hr raise! No man, what I am saying is I gotta stay in school and get a new job! I gotta change something! It is not an excuse... it is the bitter punch of reality in the face. I also want to be clear about this... OSU has to do the work. not just CGA. I have banged this drum for 10 years now. Ask OA. The coach and program matters of course, but not nearly as much as the overall school. It is exactly why Oregon has a #7 class right now, from a coach that has never had a national ranked class over 58 (prior 69 and 70 and unranked...) and has recruited exactly 2 4* players in his entire career. That coach has 7 4* commits right now. A life time 60's ranked coach that averaged a 4 star player maybe every other year here at Oregon State currently has the #15 class in the nation with 6 4* recruits at Nebraska. You can't ignore that evidence. excuses? no, reality. Unless we suddenly drop Nick Saban in Corvallis, there are incredibly few coaches that are going to move the needle on recruiting alone. GA can have all the process he wants, but until Oregon State finishes a football stadium, decides to have grown up marketing, game day experiences, until we get apparel deals that appeal to young kids... until we can somehow create an identity for us that is unique and a brand kids want to associate with... we are not going to get there. And of course, CGA needs to win games. Even at Nike U, if they go 4-8 again this year, and 4-8 again... they will not survive that on the recruiting front. So yeah. I wish we could just say HEY Casey can do it! Rueck can do it! so can CGA. but NABEAV is right. huge difference in recruiting 85 players for a game 11 people play at a time and an easy 45 will rotate though. Different dynamic and expectations to build. Baseball has 11 shared scholarships for 35 slots. Basketball has something like 12 roster spots period.... I am the guy who made the Rueck and Casey comments so this may surprise you, but I like this post. I, too, have been arguing for institutional commitment for a long time. At least, I feel CGA is committed to more than just settling. I also see more fire from his assistants. He may eventually get beat down by the task, but at least he is trying. That is where it has to start. Hopefully, other people down there will wake up to reality. GZR
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