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Post by Judge Smails on Jul 17, 2024 17:16:46 GMT -8
The Big 12 was 1-7 in the CFP. It followed up the game it did win by losing BY NINE TOUCHDOWNS in the finals. Kansas has had ONE winning season since 2009. It is not good. Arizona has two winning seasons in the last eight. It is not good. Kansas State has lost at least four games in every season since 2008. It is a slightly-above average program. Utah has not won a bowl game since 2017. It greatly benefitted by playing Colorado, ASU, UCLA and Arizona every year instead of the tougher north schedule. Colorado has had ONE winning season since 2005. It's the worst P4 team in the country. Except for two seasons, ASU has lost at least five games in every full season since 2007. It is a bad program. Cincinnati, Houston and UCF are glorified AAC programs. BYU mastered the 8-5 season as an independent. There’s a reason the Big 12 went all in on basketball schools. They knew they had no shot to keep up in football.
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Post by grayman on Jul 17, 2024 21:15:51 GMT -8
The Big 12 was 1-7 in the CFP. It followed up the game it did win by losing BY NINE TOUCHDOWNS in the finals. Kansas has had ONE winning season since 2009. It is not good. Arizona has two winning seasons in the last eight. It is not good. Kansas State has lost at least four games in every season since 2008. It is a slightly-above average program. Utah has not won a bowl game since 2017. It greatly benefitted by playing Colorado, ASU, UCLA and Arizona every year instead of the tougher north schedule. Colorado has had ONE winning season since 2005. It's the worst P4 team in the country. Except for two seasons, ASU has lost at least five games in every full season since 2007. It is a bad program. Cincinnati, Houston and UCF are glorified AAC programs. BYU mastered the 8-5 season as an independent. I said "Kansas is a basketball powerhouse and has been good in football recently, as has Arizona." Kansas went 6-7 with a bowl loss in 2022 and was 9-4 and won its bowl this past season. It is considered to be an up and coming program. Arizona actually parallels OSU in football to an extent. The Wildcats were pretty solid for a couple seasons in the second half of Mike Stoops time (8-5 in 2008,and 2009) and then went 8-5, 8-5, 10-4, 7-6, 3-9 and 7-6 from 2012 to 2017 under Rich Rodriguez. Then hit the skids for three seasons under Kevin Sumlin. Jedd Fisch took over and went 1-11, then 5-7 and 10-3 last season. Utah has been good. You can pooh pooh two conferences titles followed by losses in the Rose Bowl, but one was a 48-45 loss to Ohio State. The Penn State loss was a little more disappointing IMO. But Whittingham has led them to records of 9-4, 10-3, 9-4, 7-6, 9-5, 11-3, (3-2 in 2020 Covid year), 10-4, 10-4 and 8-5 from 2015 to present and a bowl game every season during that period except 2020. It's not an elite program but consistently strong. TCU is more big hit or middle of the road. But after joining the Big 12, the Horned Frogs have gone 12-1 (2014), 11-2 (2015), 11-3 (2017) and then 13-2 in 2022. BTW, TCU absolutely dominated the Mountain West most seasons before moving up. Had seasons of 11-1, 11-2, 11-2, 12-1, 13-0 and 11-2. Won the MWC title four times and went undefeated in conference play all four times. Finished second twice and fifth once. Kansas State was really good under Bill Snyder. He had a stretch from 1993 to 2003 with records of 9-2-1, 9-3, 10-2, 9-3, 11-1, 11-2, 11-1, 11-3, 6-6, 11-2, 11-4. They were pretty middle of the road from 2004-2010 but then went 10-3, 11-2, 8-5, 9-4, 6-7, 9-4, 8-5 and 5-7 during Snyder's second go-round. Chris Klieman took over and has had one off season during Covid (4-6). Otherwise it's been 8-5, 8-5, 10-4 and 9-4. That's pretty darn good recent history (31 years). Pretty sure it compares favorably to some programs that most people would assume are better than Kansas State. I'm not sure why I should care about Colorado, Arizona State, Houston, etc. Somebody has to be in the lower half of the conference most seasons. UCF and BYU actually have some potential, especially UCF.
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Post by grayman on Jul 17, 2024 23:10:00 GMT -8
I left out Oklahoma State, which also can now make the argument as the strongest overall football program in the Big 12. From 2008 to present, the Cowboys have gone 9-4, 9-4, 11-2, 12-1, 8-5, 10-3, 7-6, 10-3, 10-3, 10-3, 7-6, 8-5, 8-3, 12-2, 7-6, 10-4. They won the Fiesta Bowl in 2011 and finished as the No. 3 team in the polls. In 2021 they won the Fiesta Bowl again and finished as the No. 7 team. They lost the Sugar Bowl in 2015. Baylor has also had its moments. From 2011 to present, the Bears have had seasons of 12-2, 11-2 twice, 11-3, 10-3 and 8-5 but also has had seasons of 7-6 twice, 6-7, 3-9, 2-7 and 1-11. So some pretty high peaks and a few low valleys. The Big 12 isn't weak in football but it definitely lacks a perennial power program or two now that Texas and Oklahoma are gone. Florida State and Clemson would make up that ground for the most part but we'll see if that actually has legs.
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Post by irimi on Jul 18, 2024 4:45:40 GMT -8
Of course they haven't dropped their court case. But as the story says, even if they win, no one wants FSU if the ACC stays relatively intact. Without Oklahoma and Texas, the Big 12 sucks. No reason to watch it at all. You want to disagree, no problem, but Kansas vs. Cincinnati (or Kansas against anyone, really) doesn't turn many cranks. I don't know about that. That Utah team has sure shown some promise recently. And Kansas and Kansas State both finished the year ranked. That other OSU, too. Yeah, it doesn't turn heads like the SEC or the B1G, but it's a good, honest, workingman's conference. I'd be happy if we landed there, especially with UA, ASU, UC, and Wazzu. It would allow for some semblance of continuity.
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Post by irimi on Jul 18, 2024 4:52:36 GMT -8
Vastly superior? Nah. Better overall? Sure. Adding FSU and Clemson to the Big Ten would absolutely change the dynamic and would at the very least pull the Big Ten into equal status with the SEC, maybe better. I don't think it would end the SEC at all, though. 16 national championships for SEC this century, 3 of which from schools not even listed, 14 of the last 20 vs 8 NC for Big 20, 5 of which from FSU, Clemson and USC. Florida and Auburn have as many NCs this century as OSU and Michigan..or all of last years Big 10. Vastly. I think the difference is that over the past 20 years or so, Ohio State has always managed to be in the conversation at the end of the year. Not many teams have done that. Not Auburn. Not Alabama. Not Clemson. Certainly not Michigan. And though they've only won 2 National Championships this century, one was against the Ducks, so it counts triple. ;-)
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Post by killerbeavs on Jul 18, 2024 5:20:56 GMT -8
The Pacific/Atlantic Conference?
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Post by speakthetruth on Jul 18, 2024 5:54:40 GMT -8
The PAC.
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Post by RenoBeaver on Jul 18, 2024 8:30:46 GMT -8
16 national championships for SEC this century, 3 of which from schools not even listed, 14 of the last 20 vs 8 NC for Big 20, 5 of which from FSU, Clemson and USC. Florida and Auburn have as many NCs this century as OSU and Michigan..or all of last years Big 10. Vastly. I think the difference is that over the past 20 years or so, Ohio State has always managed to be in the conversation at the end of the year. Not many teams have done that. Not Auburn. Not Alabama. Not Clemson. Certainly not Michigan. And though they've only won 2 National Championships this century, one was against the Ducks, so it counts triple. ;-) That's because the Big 10 is not a deep conference. I'd argue for most of thst time it was a joke, because before Harbough it was Ohio State and the 13 dwarfs. 5 different SEC schools won the NC this century (Florida, Auburn, LSU, Georgia, Bama). They just added two more. This conversation started by someone opining if the Big 10 add FSU and Clemson it might finish off the SEC. Thats actually kinda hilarious
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Post by irimi on Jul 18, 2024 10:35:46 GMT -8
I think the difference is that over the past 20 years or so, Ohio State has always managed to be in the conversation at the end of the year. Not many teams have done that. Not Auburn. Not Alabama. Not Clemson. Certainly not Michigan. And though they've only won 2 National Championships this century, one was against the Ducks, so it counts triple. ;-) That's because the Big 10 is not a deep conference. I'd argue for most of thst time it was a joke, because before Harbough it was Ohio State and the 13 dwarfs. 5 different SEC schools won the NC this century (Florida, Auburn, LSU, Georgia, Bama). They just added two more. This conversation started by someone opining if the Big 10 add FSU and Clemson it might finish off the SEC. Thats actually kinda hilarious If you'd said that tOSU gets there on the cheap by scheduling rather weak opponents, especially for non-conference games, I'd be right there with you. Only 5 SEC teams? The way they stack them into the playoffs, you'd think that more would have won by now. ;-)
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Post by grayman on Jul 18, 2024 11:04:05 GMT -8
I think the difference is that over the past 20 years or so, Ohio State has always managed to be in the conversation at the end of the year. Not many teams have done that. Not Auburn. Not Alabama. Not Clemson. Certainly not Michigan. And though they've only won 2 National Championships this century, one was against the Ducks, so it counts triple. ;-) That's because the Big 10 is not a deep conference. I'd argue for most of thst time it was a joke, because before Harbough it was Ohio State and the 13 dwarfs. 5 different SEC schools won the NC this century (Florida, Auburn, LSU, Georgia, Bama). They just added two more. This conversation started by someone opining if the Big 10 add FSU and Clemson it might finish off the SEC. Thats actually kinda hilarious The Big Ten has gotten quite a bit deeper through adding USC, UCLA, UW and UO. Putting our thoughts about those teams contributing to the Pac-12's demise aside, they all bring a fair amount to the table to the Big Ten. USC is probably just a half step away from becoming a power once again if it commits to becoming legitimately competitive with Ohio State and Michigan. We know Phil Knight intends to throw a lot of money to put hole over the top. UW has been strong lately. UCLA could also become a major player but I doubt that it will emphasize football enough to do so. As far as the SEC, Florida has not been good lately. The Gators have gone 6-7, 6-7 and 5-7 in the last three seasons. Auburn has gone 6-5, 6-7, 5-7 and 6-7 in the last four seasons. So at this moment they are the two weakest programs in that list of top SEC and Big Ten teams we've been discussing. Easily weaker than Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, USC, UW, Oregon and yeah, even UCLA. So we're really talking about Alabama, Georgia and LSU here as opposed to Michigan, Ohio State and UW as far as far as recent success.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jul 18, 2024 13:48:04 GMT -8
I think the difference is that over the past 20 years or so, Ohio State has always managed to be in the conversation at the end of the year. Not many teams have done that. Not Auburn. Not Alabama. Not Clemson. Certainly not Michigan. And though they've only won 2 National Championships this century, one was against the Ducks, so it counts triple. ;-) That's because the Big 10 is not a deep conference. I'd argue for most of thst time it was a joke, because before Harbough it was Ohio State and the 13 dwarfs. 5 different SEC schools won the NC this century (Florida, Auburn, LSU, Georgia, Bama). They just added two more. This conversation started by someone opining if the Big 10 add FSU and Clemson it might finish off the SEC. Thats actually kinda hilarious I was mostly responding to the stupid article saying that the Big Ten and SEC would not invite Clemson and Florida State. I was positing that the SEC has to keep up with the Big Ten in expansion, or it will be open to being the next one to be picked apart. If the Big Ten add Florida State and Clemson and then offer Oklahoma, Texas, and Texas A&M in a couple of years, what is the result? And, if those three bolt, who gets the invite next? Florida? Bama? LSU? If the Big Ten starts butting into the SEC's territory without the SEC countering the moves, the SEC is very susceptible to being picked apart and vice versa. Part of the danger in all of these moves is that no one is really 100% committed to the new conference. Colorado was a great example of this in the Pac-12. The SEC has had a lot of football success but does not generate the money that the Big Ten is making and does not have a national footprint. The Big Ten has been acquiring key media markets, and the SEC has added good football schools (and Missouri for the St. Louis market or something?). I am curious as to how the Big Ten and SEC ultimately play the ACC's GOR disappearing. I doubt it is to allow the Big 12 to invite Clemson and Florida State.
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Post by RenoBeaver on Jul 18, 2024 16:37:52 GMT -8
That's because the Big 10 is not a deep conference. I'd argue for most of thst time it was a joke, because before Harbough it was Ohio State and the 13 dwarfs. 5 different SEC schools won the NC this century (Florida, Auburn, LSU, Georgia, Bama). They just added two more. This conversation started by someone opining if the Big 10 add FSU and Clemson it might finish off the SEC. Thats actually kinda hilarious I was mostly responding to the stupid article saying that the Big Ten and SEC would not invite Clemson and Florida State. I was positing that the SEC has to keep up with the Big Ten in expansion, or it will be open to being the next one to be picked apart. If the Big Ten add Florida State and Clemson and then offer Oklahoma, Texas, and Texas A&M in a couple of years, what is the result? And, if those three bolt, who gets the invite next? Florida? Bama? LSU? If the Big Ten starts butting into the SEC's territory without the SEC countering the moves, the SEC is very susceptible to being picked apart and vice versa. Part of the danger in all of these moves is that no one is really 100% committed to the new conference. Colorado was a great example of this in the Pac-12. The SEC has had a lot of football success but does not generate the money that the Big Ten is making and does not have a national footprint. The Big Ten has been acquiring key media markets, and the SEC has added good football schools (and Missouri for the St. Louis market or something?). I am curious as to how the Big Ten and SEC ultimately play the ACC's GOR disappearing. I doubt it is to allow the Big 12 to invite Clemson and Florida State. Clemson and FSU offer the Big 10 football clout. That's it. Tallahassee and Clemson are butt zit TV markets. Miami and North Carolina are arguably better commodities. And I'm not sure Miami doesn't hold as much football clout as the other two. ESPN is not going to let the big 10 poach SEC teams. They may partner with Fox to create one large super division, but that is years away. And if that happens the Big 10 far more than the SEC needs to rid itself of the excess baggage. I don't think FSU and Clemson to Big 12 is that far fetched. It's all about what the TV networks want. And what they want the future college football landscape to be.
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Post by RenoBeaver on Jul 18, 2024 16:48:09 GMT -8
That's because the Big 10 is not a deep conference. I'd argue for most of thst time it was a joke, because before Harbough it was Ohio State and the 13 dwarfs. 5 different SEC schools won the NC this century (Florida, Auburn, LSU, Georgia, Bama). They just added two more. This conversation started by someone opining if the Big 10 add FSU and Clemson it might finish off the SEC. Thats actually kinda hilarious The Big Ten has gotten quite a bit deeper through adding USC, UCLA, UW and UO. Putting our thoughts about those teams contributing to the Pac-12's demise aside, they all bring a fair amount to the table to the Big Ten. USC is probably just a half step away from becoming a power once again if it commits to becoming legitimately competitive with Ohio State and Michigan. We know Phil Knight intends to throw a lot of money to put hole over the top. UW has been strong lately. UCLA could also become a major player but I doubt that it will emphasize football enough to do so. As far as the SEC, Florida has not been good lately. The Gators have gone 6-7, 6-7 and 5-7 in the last three seasons. Auburn has gone 6-5, 6-7, 5-7 and 6-7 in the last four seasons. So at this moment they are the two weakest programs in that list of top SEC and Big Ten teams we've been discussing. Easily weaker than Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, USC, UW, Oregon and yeah, even UCLA. So we're really talking about Alabama, Georgia and LSU here as opposed to Michigan, Ohio State and UW as far as far as recent success. What is SEC vs Big 10 head to head? How many times have Iowa, Wisky, or Penn State played for a NC this century...I'll omit the other 8 to 10 schools. But NC winners Florida and Auburn are junk. Mississippi right now is a better program than Penn State. Lastly, Michigan and UW just lost their head coaches. One of them to Bama. Oregon joins the Big 10 and it's one of the favorites to win the conference. That would be one more time than Lanning won the Pac 12. Don't get me started on the failure Lincoln Kennedy is. And UCLA....really? Bottom line...Ohio State is a power team, no doubt. Oregon might be. Michigan and Washington are trending downward. USC is a s%#t show. 6 or 7 SEC teams in any given year could rise up to win the NC. 2 or 3 in Big 10. Vastly.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Jul 18, 2024 16:48:13 GMT -8
Florida State and Clemson have a national following. Their "market size" is immaterial.
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Post by ag87 on Jul 18, 2024 17:27:00 GMT -8
The Big Ten has gotten quite a bit deeper through adding USC, UCLA, UW and UO. Putting our thoughts about those teams contributing to the Pac-12's demise aside, they all bring a fair amount to the table to the Big Ten. USC is probably just a half step away from becoming a power once again if it commits to becoming legitimately competitive with Ohio State and Michigan. We know Phil Knight intends to throw a lot of money to put hole over the top. UW has been strong lately. UCLA could also become a major player but I doubt that it will emphasize football enough to do so. As far as the SEC, Florida has not been good lately. The Gators have gone 6-7, 6-7 and 5-7 in the last three seasons. Auburn has gone 6-5, 6-7, 5-7 and 6-7 in the last four seasons. So at this moment they are the two weakest programs in that list of top SEC and Big Ten teams we've been discussing. Easily weaker than Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, USC, UW, Oregon and yeah, even UCLA. So we're really talking about Alabama, Georgia and LSU here as opposed to Michigan, Ohio State and UW as far as far as recent success. What is SEC vs Big 10 head to head? How many times have Iowa, Wisky, or Penn State played for a NC this century...I'll omit the other 8 to 10 schools. But NC winners Florida and Auburn are junk. Mississippi right now is a better program than Penn State. Lastly, Michigan and UW just lost their head coaches. One of them to Bama. Oregon joins the Big 10 and it's one of the favorites to win the conference. That would be one more time than Lanning won the Pac 12. Don't get me started on the failure Lincoln Kennedy is. And UCLA....really? Bottom line...Ohio State is a power team, no doubt. Oregon might be. Michigan and Washington are trending downward. USC is a s%#t show. 6 or 7 SEC teams in any given year could rise up to win the NC. 2 or 3 in Big 10. Vastly. I don't understand. Because they have not won a title game in six months?
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