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Post by rgeorge on Mar 14, 2024 19:16:56 GMT -8
"...guess I get a little triggered by those who imply things can't improve."
Funny isn't that what some mean when they say no other coach would want this job? Or, that no other coach would do better? Add... that history of the program determines the future, and hence mediocrity is acceptable as it's a bit better than past mediocrity?
I guess both "sides" get triggered...
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Post by beaverinohio on Mar 15, 2024 5:54:26 GMT -8
Not Tinkle related, but I thought I’d share a post by Illini board resident MBB insider (though his tea leaves were wrong about Tinkle staying) about the Louisville search. I just find this time of year fascinating, so I enjoy these behind the scenes looks.
”Ihave gotten quite a few messages about Louisville today ...
Here is what I know for a fact:
Drew met with Louisville people today ... They offered him 9.5 per year ... 5 million per year of NIL ...
They have a donor who is willing to pony up BIG for Drew ... Other coaches will not get anywhere near that salary and likely closer to 4 million NIL ...
Drew is "thinking on it" ... It is definitely in play for him ...
Pat Kelsey has met with Louisville ... I personally have a relationship with Pat ... He confirmed the meeting ... I will keep the rest of the details private per his wishes ...
Schertz has met with them as well ... Just a quicker meeting ... He asked me to keep details private but that I could share that they met ...
Jerome Tang will meet with Louisville sometime this weekend ... Zoom meeting is likely vs. in person but subject to change ... He is in play but think he is outside the top 3 ...
Mick Cronin is 2nd on their list ... They are currently working BTS to figure out a way around the buyout due to legislation of the contract being signed when UCLA was a member of Pac 12 and now that they are Big 10 some of/if not all of that buyout should be null and void ... I think they will have to pay some of that buyout but my sources tell me it should be reduced for any team interested ... Cronin has also stated he would be willing to take less money up front in order to pay off said buyout ...
Dusty May has long been involved with Louisville... They know where each other stands ... They have talked a handful of times already ... He wants more NIL ...
This one is going to be interesting ...
Side note: I can't say enough how much I enjoy getting all of your guy's messages and talking hoops, recruiting, coaching carousel, X&O ... And sometimes even some more personal stuff that people on here share with me ... It's awesome ... Never hesitate to reach out ...”
And to keep this post OSU and conference related, saw Haase was let go (expected). Also saw one of our future opponents St Mary’s will likely be losing an assistant as they take over Cal Poly.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 15, 2024 12:50:20 GMT -8
The college basketball game averages 60-80 possessions a gamd - PER TEAM. As far as I know, a 3 possession game means any combination of a ball going in or not going in the basket has occurred, for any number of reasons, over the course of 140+/- possession switches a game. Any team that can hang within a combination of 3 total possessions of another is not being completely outplayed. We were outplayed in too many games in my book, but not in the overwhelming number of them. The majority of the games were quite close, especially when looking at the experience difference between the Beavs and other teams in the league. If this team was as bad as some people imply, it would have been curb-stomped on a regular basis. Sure, close games show up in the record, but the win-loss record is rarely indicative if just how close a team is or isn't to actually being a decent team. It's a young team. In general, young players improve. Reminds me of a few weeks ago when someone said KC Ibekwe is no Steve Johnson. Well guess what, Steve Johnson wasn't exactly the Steve Johnson we remember the 678 minutes (92 minutes more than Ibekwe) he played his first 2 seasons here. He was better offensively than Ibekwe, but he wasn't in his prime yet at all. He actually fouled a bit more than Ibekwe (that surprised me), but a lot of the other numbers were actually pretty close, KC with a bit more assists and fewer turnovers per minute, Steve with a bit more rebounds per minute. I'm not finding steal and blocked shot records from 1976, so I'm not sure who's stats were better there. Point being, Johnson got better with age, so can Ibekwe... and the rest of the team. Now people can scream all they want about the horrible year after the NCAA Tourney run, but he's brought in a fairly decent young nucleus to build around, and those that are here could become pretty decent if they stick around (do not know if that happens or not yet). Barnes giving the "vote of confidence" the other day really doesn't mean much. Between the transfer portal and LOI day the next month, a lot could happen the next 30-45 days. I would hope if there is a coaching change made it comes before the third week of May to where the next coach isn't hamstrung by timing like Tinkle was when he came in. That’s all well and good, but the original poster took the scenario Beavs would win all those “close” games with no change in outcome to the close wins, which overall were closer than the close losses. In reality the close games evened out, which is what one would expect — especially with a mediocre team. Listing number of close losses and saying the team nearly had a great season is the definition of seeing things through orange-colored glasses while drinking orange Kool-aid, and lacks any kind of objectivity. My primary point is that this team was close to being a lot better. If this team were seven points better, none of those close wins come into play, because they would just be wins. You or Georgy or Speak point out that the team was close to being a lot worse results-wise, which to some extent is true. But you would expect this team to improve on this year, not regress. We will see......... |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 15, 2024 13:04:32 GMT -8
Some say there has been progress since the 21-22 season. In 21-22 the pac12 record was 1-19 leading to 12th place. The last two years the pac12 record has been 5-15 improving all the way to 11th place last year and sliding back to 12th this year. 12th to 11th to 12th some kind of improvement. This year is probably the weakest pac12 I can remember. The Pac-12 has a better winning percentage in nonconference play this year than last year. The conference was better two years ago. And the conference was very strong three years ago. And even stronger four years ago before COVID-19 sidetracked everything. This year's Pac-12 is stronger than the Pac-12 of five years ago. So, if you cannot remember 2018-19 or 2022-23, then I am sorry. I would say that the Pac-12 is below average for the last nine years or so but definitely not the "weakest pac12" anyone can remember. Just to harp on it again, Oregon State went 5-15, which is typically good for 10th or 11th in the Pac-12. The bottom 2/3 of the Pac-12 is as good or better than it has ever been. There is no out and out awful punching bag or two at the bottom to weigh everyone down. Even the worst team in the Pac-12, Oregon State, beat the best team, Arizona. A lot of parity. Again, Oregon State is improved year over and year over again. |
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Post by lebaneaver on Mar 15, 2024 19:29:32 GMT -8
"...guess I get a little triggered by those who imply things can't improve." Funny isn't that what some mean when they say no other coach would want this job? Or, that no other coach would do better? Add... that history of the program determines the future, and hence mediocrity is acceptable as it's a bit better than past mediocrity? I guess both "sides" get triggered... Here’s a question: WHY would anyone think things CAN IMPROVE? save for a couple years, we’ve SUCKED for decades. There are ahelluvalot of legitimate reasons folks think things CAN’T improve. |
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Post by bvrbooster on Mar 15, 2024 20:59:18 GMT -8
I haven't been following this thread, but my 2 cents:
It seems to me that OSU doesn't have the money to hire a big name coach, nor do we have a very deep pocketed alumnus with a burning desire to spend boatloads of money on a steady stream of one and done guys.
So what, realistically, is the alternative to Wayne? At the low end, a second coming of Jay John or Craig Robinson; at the top end, a younger, and no doubt shorter, version of Wayne. There is no Mark Few waiting in the wings to lead our program to the promised land.
Replace Tinkle? He runs a clean program, brings in good kids who don't get in trouble, and he's a fine man. Like everybody else, I'd like a more competitive team, but I just don't see how it happens. So consider the old saw: Be careful what you wish for; you just might get it.
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Post by speakthetruth on Mar 16, 2024 6:24:39 GMT -8
"...guess I get a little triggered by those who imply things can't improve." Funny isn't that what some mean when they say no other coach would want this job? Or, that no other coach would do better? Add... that history of the program determines the future, and hence mediocrity is acceptable as it's a bit better than past mediocrity? I guess both "sides" get triggered... Here’s a question: WHY would anyone think things CAN IMPROVE? save for a couple years, we’ve SUCKED for decades. There are ahelluvalot of legitimate reasons folks think things CAN’T improve. In the last three years we've been last place, second to last place and last place. Hard to imagine things could get worse. I guess we could have been last place all three years. I hold out hope that there is another Kyle Smith out there. |
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Post by treasurevalleybeav on Mar 16, 2024 8:18:46 GMT -8
I really do respect and almost admire Wilky's dedication to putting a good face on this. I just can't get past the 3-28 abomination when he had the momentum of the elite 8 run at his back. But it made me more upset at just WHY things got so toxic. I know someone who witnessed first hand how poorly he handled the many serious issues (that he allowed to get so bad in the first place). I thought last year had some successful elements. Granted the bar was SO LOW thanks to how terrible of a job he did the year before. However, the progress THIS year was minimal and debatable at that.
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Post by spudbeaver on Mar 16, 2024 8:19:07 GMT -8
I haven't been following this thread, but my 2 cents: It seems to me that OSU doesn't have the money to hire a big name coach, nor do we have a very deep pocketed alumnus with a burning desire to spend boatloads of money on a steady stream of one and done guys. So what, realistically, is the alternative to Wayne? At the low end, a second coming of Jay John or Craig Robinson; at the top end, a younger, and no doubt shorter, version of Wayne. There is no Mark Few waiting in the wings to lead our program to the promised land. Replace Tinkle? He runs a clean program, brings in good kids who don't get in trouble, and he's a fine man. Like everybody else, I'd like a more competitive team, but I just don't see how it happens. So consider the old saw: Be careful what you wish for; you just might get it. I’ll never understand this mentality. But hey, it’s a free country. Upon typing that the thought came to me that it’s only a free country because people refused to accept the situation they were in, and fought a bloody battle to get out of it. Huh. |
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Post by treasurevalleybeav on Mar 16, 2024 8:26:37 GMT -8
I haven't been following this thread, but my 2 cents: It seems to me that OSU doesn't have the money to hire a big name coach, nor do we have a very deep pocketed alumnus with a burning desire to spend boatloads of money on a steady stream of one and done guys. So what, realistically, is the alternative to Wayne? At the low end, a second coming of Jay John or Craig Robinson; at the top end, a younger, and no doubt shorter, version of Wayne. There is no Mark Few waiting in the wings to lead our program to the promised land. Replace Tinkle? He runs a clean program, brings in good kids who don't get in trouble, and he's a fine man. Like everybody else, I'd like a more competitive team, but I just don't see how it happens. So consider the old saw: Be careful what you wish for; you just might get it. I’ll never understand this mentality. But hey, it’s a free country. Upon typing that the thought came to me that it’s only a free country because people refused to accept the situation they were in, and fought a bloody battle to get out of it. Huh. Unfortunately in the horrific post elite 8 season I just referenced he did NOT bring in all good kids and did not act like a fine man. Those were two of his many problems when he burnt the program almost to the ground by almost losing literally every game. |
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Post by fridaynightlights on Mar 16, 2024 11:37:05 GMT -8
I don't buy the "no one can win at OSU" argument. If WSU can hit on 2 coaching hires in the past 20 seasons there is no reason that OSU can't find a coach who can win in Corvallis. Tony Bennett had back-to-back 26 win seasons in the Palouse and their current coach Kyle Smith finished 2nd in the conference this season and has a winning record in conference in his 5 seasons at WSU. Keeping a winning coach at OSU would be a challenge, but at least we would enjoy a few good seasons. If WSU can find a winning coach, there is no reason OSU can't do the same. Finding a coach who can win at OSU is obviously not easy, but imo it is possible.
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Post by NativeBeav on Mar 16, 2024 12:05:01 GMT -8
I don't buy the "no one can win at OSU" argument. If WSU can hit on 2 coaching hires in the past 20 seasons there is no reason that OSU can't find a coach who can win in Corvallis. Tony Bennett had back-to-back 26 win seasons in the Palouse and their current coach Kyle Smith finished 2nd in the conference this season and has a winning record in conference in his 5 seasons at WSU. Keeping a winning coach at OSU would be a challenge, but at least we would enjoy a few good seasons. If WSU can find a winning coach, there is no reason OSU can't do the same. Finding a coach who can win at OSU is obviously not easy, but imo it is possible. Legit question for our resident statistician, Wilky. It has been referenced many times here that OSU does not put the resources into MBB. What is the comparison between OSU and WSU, in terms of support/ dollars for the MBB program? Are they truly doing more with less, or do they have exponentially better facilities, better paid coach, assistants, etc?
Pat Casey built a nationally ranked and recognized program in the most unlikely of spots. Seems defeatist to think that, as much as I might like WT, that is the best we should hope for? Isn't 10 years enough time to prove who you are, and that you can build a program and win? I am sure many would have thought in the '90's and early 2000's we were tilting at windmills to think we could get to Omaha and win multiple times.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 16, 2024 14:23:22 GMT -8
I don't buy the "no one can win at OSU" argument. If WSU can hit on 2 coaching hires in the past 20 seasons there is no reason that OSU can't find a coach who can win in Corvallis. Tony Bennett had back-to-back 26 win seasons in the Palouse and their current coach Kyle Smith finished 2nd in the conference this season and has a winning record in conference in his 5 seasons at WSU. Keeping a winning coach at OSU would be a challenge, but at least we would enjoy a few good seasons. If WSU can find a winning coach, there is no reason OSU can't do the same. Finding a coach who can win at OSU is obviously not easy, but imo it is possible. Legit question for our resident statistician, Wilky. It has been referenced many times here that OSU does not put the resources into MBB. What is the comparison between OSU and WSU, in terms of support/ dollars for the MBB program? Are they truly doing more with less, or do they have exponentially better facilities, better paid coach, assistants, etc?
Pat Casey built a nationally ranked and recognized program in the most unlikely of spots. Seems defeatist to think that, as much as I might like WT, that is the best we should hope for? Isn't 10 years enough time to prove who you are, and that you can build a program and win? I am sure many would have thought in the '90's and early 2000's we were tilting at windmills to think we could get to Omaha and win multiple times.
Oregon State spends more on the basketball program than Wazzu by about 7%, but that was not true prior to Tinkle's extension and raise after the 2020-21 season. Wazzu was spending more on the basketball team back then. Some people on here seem to forget that Tinkle and his staff agreed to forego part of their salary for the 2020-21 season. The extension and raise was, in part, an opportunity to pay Tinkle and his staff back. Beasley is bigger, newer, and has been refurbished more recently than Gill. Oregon State added the Sports Performance Center, which is probably nicer and newer than Bohler at Wazzu. Pick your poison about facilities. Pat Casey was in a hole, when he started. He had to fundraise to fix Coleman Field (which had holes and mounds throughout). Then, he had to fundraise to build Goss Stadium. Then, he had to fundraise to add lights. Casey's first recruiting class after adding lights were the juniors on the 2005 College World Series. Snowballed from there. Baseball and basketball are hardly comparable, though, at the college level. As for Wayne, he rebuilt Oregon State into a Tournament team, then he rebuilt Oregon State into an Elite team. He has shown twice that he certainly has the coaching acumen to lead a team deep into the Tournament. He is in the middle of his third rebuild. And you have seen progress year over year over year, since the awful 2021-22 season. People piss and moan that it should be faster with nothing to base that off of. Oregon State is invariably the younger of the two teams on the court each and every game. And the results seem to bear that out. You ask about 10 years, but that presupposes that the situation is identical to the one 10 years ago. 10 years ago, Oregon State was a team in the vaunted Pac-12. Next year, Oregon State is going to be another team in the West Coast Conference. I personally want to see how Tinkle does in the West Coast Conference to see, if it is translating or not. If things are not as good or worse next year, then we start thinking about that buyout. Until then, though, a lot of this talk is just stiff-necked whining pure and simple. Like a snot-nosed seven-year-old, whining "Are we there yet?" from the backseat. No, damnit. We're not there yet. And if I hear anymore whining, we are going to extend Tinkle for another five seasons. |
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Post by rgeorge on Mar 16, 2024 16:10:43 GMT -8
All the "it can't... why expect better... who could do better..." etc. are hogwash. And proof is in OSU's own fairly recent history.
If THE major moment making program can go for so long, and be so bad, and yet be where they are, so can hoops. And, it isn't all about $ to get it started. OSU was the lowest or near the bottom in every resource but yet turned the football program around. THEN came the $.
To not have the same competitive expectations for every program at OSU is ridiculous. And, it begins with the right coaching hire. WT has proven he's not the guy!
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Post by fridaynightlights on Mar 16, 2024 16:43:19 GMT -8
Legit question for our resident statistician, Wilky. It has been referenced many times here that OSU does not put the resources into MBB. What is the comparison between OSU and WSU, in terms of support/ dollars for the MBB program? Are they truly doing more with less, or do they have exponentially better facilities, better paid coach, assistants, etc?
Pat Casey built a nationally ranked and recognized program in the most unlikely of spots. Seems defeatist to think that, as much as I might like WT, that is the best we should hope for? Isn't 10 years enough time to prove who you are, and that you can build a program and win? I am sure many would have thought in the '90's and early 2000's we were tilting at windmills to think we could get to Omaha and win multiple times.
Oregon State spends more on the basketball program than Wazzu by about 7%, but that was not true prior to Tinkle's extension and raise after the 2020-21 season. Wazzu was spending more on the basketball team back then. Some people on here seem to forget that Tinkle and his staff agreed to forego part of their salary for the 2020-21 season. The extension and raise was, in part, an opportunity to pay Tinkle and his staff back. Beasley is bigger, newer, and has been refurbished more recently than Gill. Oregon State added the Sports Performance Center, which is probably nicer and newer than Bohler at Wazzu. Pick your poison about facilities. Pat Casey was in a hole, when he started. He had to fundraise to fix Coleman Field (which had holes and mounds throughout). Then, he had to fundraise to build Goss Stadium. Then, he had to fundraise to add lights. Casey's first recruiting class after adding lights were the juniors on the 2005 College World Series. Snowballed from there. Baseball and basketball are hardly comparable, though, at the college level. As for Wayne, he rebuilt Oregon State into a Tournament team, then he rebuilt Oregon State into an Elite team. He has shown twice that he certainly has the coaching acumen to lead a team deep into the Tournament. He is in the middle of his third rebuild. And you have seen progress year over year over year, since the awful 2021-22 season. People piss and moan that it should be faster with nothing to base that off of. Oregon State is invariably the younger of the two teams on the court each and every game. And the results seem to bear that out. You ask about 10 years, but that presupposes that the situation is identical to the one 10 years ago. 10 years ago, Oregon State was a team in the vaunted Pac-12. Next year, Oregon State is going to be another team in the West Coast Conference. I personally want to see how Tinkle does in the West Coast Conference to see, if it is translating or not. If things are not as good or worse next year, then we start thinking about that buyout. Until then, though, a lot of this talk is just stiff-necked whining pure and simple. Like a snot-nosed seven-year-old, whining "Are we there yet?" from the backseat. No, damnit. We're not there yet. And if I hear anymore whining, we are going to extend Tinkle for another five seasons. That was the definition of condescending. I am trying to decide, are you Scott Barnes, Tinkles agent or a family member or relative. OSU fans who complain about the lousy product that is OSU basketball, being whining overly demanding and impatient is laughable. At just about any other school in the country WT would have been fired by now. What fans still support OSU men's basketball are the most patient fans in sports, you have to be to endure decades of hopeless losing. Multiyear rebuilds in the era of NIL and the portal is a fool's errand, coaches have to rebuild their roster EVERY year as you don't know who is going to be on the roster year to year. The old "were young" excuse has been used by losing coaches and their apologists since they used peach baskets for hoops. No fan base in the country has earned the right to "whin" more than Oregon State men's basketball fans. But don't worry I will make sure I have a handkerchief to whip my nose. |
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