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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Jan 9, 2024 9:23:30 GMT -8
Two of our best rush ends in the 2000-2010 era were Slade Norris and Victor Butler. They were not big guys. Neither was Dylan Wynn several years later.
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Post by bvrbred on Jan 9, 2024 9:48:44 GMT -8
The 4-3, with smaller ends who can really run, is a better fit for the type of athlete we've been able to recruit (until now perhaps). And we had a lot of effective DEs as you mention. I would add in Crichton and I am sure there have been others as well.
Defenses started going to the odd man front in a big way presumably from the idea that 4 backers was a better way to defend the read option or really any dual threat QB offense. We've never really had the NT for it. With GAG our odd man front defense was a disaster and it wasn't a lot better under JS until Trent Bray came along. And Trent threw in some 4 man fronts.
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DL Size
Jan 9, 2024 10:08:06 GMT -8
Post by kersting13 on Jan 9, 2024 10:08:06 GMT -8
The "Fridge" was an anomaly in 1985 when he weighed in "a biscuit shy of 300" I listened to Rocky Blier (sp) give a speech once and he said the average weight of the Steelers OL when they won their first SB was 225lbs. Things have evolved....... Go Beavs!! He might have said 255, not 225. NFL OL-men were typically 250-280 in the 1970s. 250 was typically the floor for OL weight at that time. It was the 1980s when 300lb linemen became the norm. Fridge was the first HUGE dude on defense - well over 300lbs, but able to move in space as well.
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Post by grayman on Jan 9, 2024 10:48:02 GMT -8
OK, the thread is about the size of the INTERIOR defensive linemen that the Beavers have or are bringing in. It's not about defensive ends or edge guys like Inoke Breckterfield (yes, he was a DE), Slade Norris, Victor Bulter, the presidents from 2000, Scott Crichton, Addison Gumbs or anyone else like that. Obviously it would be extremely rare to have an edge guy weighing 300 pounds. I know the title says DL size but IMO it's pretty obvious what kind of DL was meant.
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DL Size
Jan 9, 2024 10:53:39 GMT -8
Post by timber on Jan 9, 2024 10:53:39 GMT -8
OK, the thread is about the size of the INTERIOR defensive linemen that the Beavers have or are bringing in. It's not about defensive ends or edge guys like Inoke Breckterfield (yes, he was a DE), Slade Norris, Victor Bulter, the presidents from 2000, Addison Gumbs or anyone else like that. Obviously it would be extremely rare to have an edge guy weighing 300 pounds. I know the title says DL size but IMO it's pretty obvious what kind of DL was meant. I have a faint memory that Inoke was listed as a nose tackle for at least part of his time here...maybe he started there and ended as an end?
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DL Size
Jan 9, 2024 10:56:03 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by nuclearbeaver on Jan 9, 2024 10:56:03 GMT -8
The 4-3, with smaller ends who can really run, is a better fit for the type of athlete we've been able to recruit (until now perhaps). And we had a lot of effective DEs as you mention. I would add in Crichton and I am sure there have been others as well. Defenses started going to the odd man front in a big way presumably from the idea that 4 backers was a better way to defend the read option or really any dual threat QB offense. We've never really had the NT for it. With GAG our odd man front defense was a disaster and it wasn't a lot better under JS until Trent Bray came along. And Trent threw in some 4 man fronts. 3-4 really came from the NFL where monsters like Ngata, Sapp and Wilfork made the advantage obvious. The obvious problem is basically no one can do that except the 3 largest and best NT in the NFL. I like the hybrid we play with 2 big guys and a mid/large DE then cover the other DT with an EDGE who plays a bit of zone but mostly rushes/contains. Size is definitely not going to hurt our system if it stays anything near consistent. The DT slots are there to maintain gaps and anchor the line. DE, Edge and blitzers are there to get the QB. If we get a 1 in a 1000 DT to develop that can also push the pocket it's pure.chaos for the offenses.
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Post by nuclearbeaver on Jan 9, 2024 11:00:40 GMT -8
OK, the thread is about the size of the INTERIOR defensive linemen that the Beavers have or are bringing in. It's not about defensive ends or edge guys like Inoke Breckterfield (yes, he was a DE), Slade Norris, Victor Bulter, the presidents from 2000, Scott Crichton, Addison Gumbs or anyone else like that. Obviously it would be extremely rare to have an edge guy weighing 300 pounds. I know the title says DL size but IMO it's pretty obvious what kind of DL was meant. I made the thread and I wasn't specific on purpose. With 300 lb DT our DE is going to be guys like Hickle and Howard who are going to be playing in the 265-290 range. It's gonna be a BIG line. For classic 3-4 to be really effective in the NFL you want to be over 900 lbs with the 3 guys up front (unless you have a freak like Donald). If you can get in the 850 range in college that's very competitive. If these 300 lb guys can be athletic at that weight we are probably going to be close to 900 lbs which is extremely stout for college. Would be cool if we could get a 6'6 300 lb TJ Watt though.
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DL Size
Jan 9, 2024 11:03:20 GMT -8
Post by grayman on Jan 9, 2024 11:03:20 GMT -8
OK, the thread is about the size of the INTERIOR defensive linemen that the Beavers have or are bringing in. It's not about defensive ends or edge guys like Inoke Breckterfield (yes, he was a DE), Slade Norris, Victor Bulter, the presidents from 2000, Addison Gumbs or anyone else like that. Obviously it would be extremely rare to have an edge guy weighing 300 pounds. I know the title says DL size but IMO it's pretty obvious what kind of DL was meant. I have a faint memory that Inoke was listed as a nose tackle for at least part of his time here...maybe he started there and ended as an end? Yes, he started as a NT
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DL Size
Jan 9, 2024 11:06:06 GMT -8
Post by grayman on Jan 9, 2024 11:06:06 GMT -8
OK, the thread is about the size of the INTERIOR defensive linemen that the Beavers have or are bringing in. It's not about defensive ends or edge guys like Inoke Breckterfield (yes, he was a DE), Slade Norris, Victor Bulter, the presidents from 2000, Scott Crichton, Addison Gumbs or anyone else like that. Obviously it would be extremely rare to have an edge guy weighing 300 pounds. I know the title says DL size but IMO it's pretty obvious what kind of DL was meant. I made the thread and I wasn't specific on purpose. With 300 lb DT our DE is going to be guys like Hickle and Howard who are going to be playing in the 265-290 range. It's gonna be a BIG line. For classic 3-4 to be really effective in the NFL you want to be over 900 lbs with the 3 guys up front (unless you have a freak like Donald). If you can get in the 850 range in college that's very competitive. If these 300 lb guys can be athletic at that weight we are probably going to be close to 900 lbs which is extremely stout for college. Would be cool if we could get a 6'6 300 lb TJ Watt though. Fair enough. I probably shouldn't have spoken for you. But the players you named in the OP are all interior DLs (I don't really consider someone like Howard or the now ex-Beaver Lolohea edge guys). And it seemed like this thread was sparked by Bray landing a couple of big interior DLs. And for sure, the presence of interior guys like those affect the edge play.
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DL Size
Jan 9, 2024 11:09:53 GMT -8
Post by bucktoothvarmit on Jan 9, 2024 11:09:53 GMT -8
The "Fridge" was an anomaly in 1985 when he weighed in "a biscuit shy of 300" I listened to Rocky Blier (sp) give a speech once and he said the average weight of the Steelers OL when they won their first SB was 225lbs. Things have evolved....... Go Beavs!! He might have said 255, not 225. NFL OL-men were typically 250-280 in the 1970s. 250 was typically the floor for OL weight at that time. It was the 1980s when 300lb linemen became the norm. Fridge was the first HUGE dude on defense - well over 300lbs, but able to move in space as well. Yep, I probably miss heard him. I just looked it up and the starters ranged from 244lbs to 262 lbs
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Post by TheGlove on Jan 9, 2024 12:00:29 GMT -8
Size matters.
What y'all are missing is that the vast majority our "best ever" DL (interior or edge doesn't matter) were likely undersized relative to the ideal. And I argue would have been more effective if they were bigger (all other attributes remain the same.)
Forever we've had lighter guys on the DL and had to compensate in other ways...scheme, etc.
Maybe the Presidents, Swancut, and Butler were close to the quintessential size, but there a few and far between.
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Post by grayman on Jan 9, 2024 12:16:01 GMT -8
The 4-3, with smaller ends who can really run, is a better fit for the type of athlete we've been able to recruit (until now perhaps). And we had a lot of effective DEs as you mention. I would add in Crichton and I am sure there have been others as well. Defenses started going to the odd man front in a big way presumably from the idea that 4 backers was a better way to defend the read option or really any dual threat QB offense. We've never really had the NT for it. With GAG our odd man front defense was a disaster and it wasn't a lot better under JS until Trent Bray came along. And Trent threw in some 4 man fronts. 3-4 really came from the NFL where monsters like Ngata, Sapp and Wilfork made the advantage obvious. The obvious problem is basically no one can do that except the 3 largest and best NT in the NFL. I like the hybrid we play with 2 big guys and a mid/large DE then cover the other DT with an EDGE who plays a bit of zone but mostly rushes/contains. Size is definitely not going to hurt our system if it stays anything near consistent. The DT slots are there to maintain gaps and anchor the line. DE, Edge and blitzers are there to get the QB. If we get a 1 in a 1000 DT to develop that can also push the pocket it's pure.chaos for the offenses. Right. And I would point out that those OLB's are the ones getting the bulk of the sacks. This past season it was Chatfield with 9.5 sacks leading the way and McCartan with 5. In 2022 Riley Sharp led the team with 3. 2021 was Andrzsej Hugjes-Murray with 6 and Sharp with 3. 2019 it was Hamilcar Rashed with 14. McCartan had 3.5 and Sharp 3. In 2018 it was Hughes-Murray. The one outlier was the shortened 2020 season in which safety Kitan Oladapo led the team with 2. So for 3-DL sets to work at a high level you need at least two guys who are top run stuffers (maybe even all three). If the third is kind of a hybrid guy, he had better be able to stop the run consistently and be at least a pretty solid factor as a pass rusher. So that's where someone like Thomas Collins, who seems to have that athletic ability and is listed at 284 (much bigger than Lolohea, for example) could really make a difference. As an aside, this really makes me scratch my head about why they would move Sharp to TE for his final season, especially as opposed to someone like Stover and Sharp being consistently productive at OLB. IDK, maybe Sharp just wanted to make the move.
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Post by rgeorge on Jan 9, 2024 12:21:51 GMT -8
Size matters.What y'all are missing is that the vast majority our "best ever" DL (interior or edge doesn't matter) were likely undersized relative to the ideal. And I argue would have been more effective if they were bigger (all other attributes remain the same.) Forever we've had lighter guys on the DL and had to compensate in other ways...scheme, etc. Maybe the Presidents, Swancut, and Butler were close to the quintessential size, but there a few and far between. This 100% Funny how for years on such boards the SEC recruiting of "size" for the OL and DL was a major talking point. Everyone spouting the need for those 300 lbers. Yet it doesn't matter to some now?! The key is all that size with athletic ability. Of course the "overweight blob" that can hack two plays in a row is not the size some of us are talking about. The IDL measurements of those invited tot the 2023 combine was... 6'1" - 6'6", 281-335lbs, 9"-11" hands Edge... 6'2" - 6'6", 240-282lbs, 8.5"-11" hands OL numbers in the same ball park, but heavier, and about an inch on average taller. Last I looked the "average" for the NFL overall... not D1 info, but shows that size matters. Height WeightOG 6' 4.25" 316 OT 6' 5.75" 317 C 6' 3.75" 308 DE 6' 4.25" 275 DT 6' 3.25" 310
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DL Size
Jan 9, 2024 13:11:37 GMT -8
Post by orangeattack on Jan 9, 2024 13:11:37 GMT -8
The 4-3, with smaller ends who can really run, is a better fit for the type of athlete we've been able to recruit (until now perhaps). And we had a lot of effective DEs as you mention. I would add in Crichton and I am sure there have been others as well. Defenses started going to the odd man front in a big way presumably from the idea that 4 backers was a better way to defend the read option or really any dual threat QB offense. We've never really had the NT for it. With GAG our odd man front defense was a disaster and it wasn't a lot better under JS until Trent Bray came along. And Trent threw in some 4 man fronts. Across college football, the zone read singlehandedly destroyed the single gap cancellation 4-3 scheme that Oregon State was running in those days. The whole idea was simply to clog up the middle and keep the linebackers clean so they could walk around talking s%#t about their stats, as James Greule explained it. String the play out to the sidelines where small fast OLB's who would be safeties in today's defenses could run them out of bounds. With a single gap to manage for the DE's as well, they could mostly pin their ears back and bring the pressure on the QB. The zone read made them pay dearly for that. It took several years and some rule changes for the rest of college football to catch up. Those undersized fast 4-3 schemes are dead and gone.
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DL Size
Jan 9, 2024 13:44:54 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by nuclearbeaver on Jan 9, 2024 13:44:54 GMT -8
Size matters. What y'all are missing is that the vast majority our "best ever" DL (interior or edge doesn't matter) were likely undersized relative to the ideal. And I argue would have been more effective if they were bigger (all other attributes remain the same.) Forever we've had lighter guys on the DL and had to compensate in other ways...scheme, etc. Maybe the Presidents, Swancut, and Butler were close to the quintessential size, but there a few and far between. JJ Watt changed the game and proved this. Before he was romping around at 290 all over the line (LB/DE/DT) there was very defined roles on the defensive line and the second level. DTs were typically going to be a bit shorter and 300+ immovable objects and DE were in the 240-270 range (Dwight Freeney). DE weren't even necessarily that long but they had to be fast and aggressive. JJ would.mobe all over to disguise blitz and create mismatches at 6'5 290 lbs. Then you get Donald who is short and light but strong as anyone and absolutely freakishly fast on DL who also moves around. The new generation is basically just athletic monsters. Guys like Chris Jones, Myles Garrett and Jalen Carter who move as well as any athletic TE but are also 270-320 lbs. This evolution is unlikely to affect college football as substantially because quite frankly very few humans exist that can do what those guys do. On average modern lines that don't have extreme talents will have to make up for it with big dudes and creative scheme.
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