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Post by beavermd on Apr 27, 2023 16:23:50 GMT -8
I think the point, grackle , is not that we don't see mistakes. It's that we don't expect perfection. Nab' -- I DON'T expect perfection from players or coaches in any sport. On the other hand, when coaches are making six-figure salaries, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a level of coaching acumen, insight and growth beyond what MC/Dorman have shown. You’re still at this? Canham and Dorman aren’t perfect, but they’re a heck of a lot better than you and rgeorge give them credit for. |
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Post by Judge Smails on Apr 27, 2023 16:28:39 GMT -8
I really can't wait for the next album from MC Dorman. Maybe it'll be a cover of U Can't Touch This. From the “please Canham don’t hurt them” album. |
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Post by rgeorge on Apr 27, 2023 16:35:32 GMT -8
Nab' -- I DON'T expect perfection from players or coaches in any sport. On the other hand, when coaches are making six-figure salaries, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a level of coaching acumen, insight and growth beyond what MC/Dorman have shown. You’re still at this? Canham and Dorman aren’t perfect, but they’re a heck of a lot better than you and rgeorge give them credit for. Oh my... so where in your fantasy world is any criticism stated that begins to say they are... what below average... I guess?? I'm having a difficult time with your completely subject statement about coaching ability critcisms automatically rating a coach as more negative rhan positive?! "...better than... give them credit for." Really?. Let's hear you just make up how being critical (not sure how I'm lumped in with grackle's recent threads?)is somehow now an objective measure of how one rates the OVERALL coaching acumen? I hope your truly not an "md" with that train of thought/logic! |
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Post by Werebeaver on Apr 27, 2023 17:26:32 GMT -8
You’re still at this? Canham and Dorman aren’t perfect, but they’re a heck of a lot better than you and rgeorge give them credit for. Oh my... so where in your fantasy world is any criticism stated that begins to say they are... what below average... I guess?? I'm having a difficult time with your completely subject statement about coaching ability critcisms automatically rating a coach as more negative rhan positive?! "...better than... give them credit for." Really?. Let's hear you just make up how being critical (not sure how I'm lumped in with grackle's recent threads?)is somehow now an objective measure of how one rates the OVERALL coaching acumen? I hope your truly not an "md" with that train of thought/logic! Glad you didn't take it personally. |
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Post by Mike84 on Apr 27, 2023 18:31:25 GMT -8
I really can't wait for the next album from MC Dorman. Maybe it'll be a cover of U Can't Touch This. It'll be a follow-on hit.. U Can't Coach This. |
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Post by Mike84 on Apr 27, 2023 18:49:55 GMT -8
I don't think the entire pitching staff "collapsing" is likely. I also don't think that we can lead the country in ERA if our HC and pitching coach are not ready for prime time. Same goes for not only making the post season but winning in the post season. I think the evidence is there that you are wrong, but you refuse to see or accept it. You're making my point for me Mike. We (did) lead the country in ERA before ASU, then suddenly our nation-leading staff can't get anyone out and throws gopherballs with regularity. In any case, my point is NOT that MC/Dorman are ALWAYS screwing up-- they don't. Rather, too often they make questionable in-game decisions or fail to pick up on opportunities when they present themselves. In doing so, often they fail to take maximum advantage of their player's talents. And, turning your final statement back to you...I suspect that you (and some others here) "refuse to see or accept" coaching errors by MC/Dorman...even when the evidence might well be there. I of course knew I was leaving the door open for rebuttal by pointing out the ERA (prior to ASU). But my point was that you don't GET to that point this far into the season by being "a day late and a dollar short" as a coaching staff. That's not a description that indicates they dropped the ball once or twice, like all coaches do. It's not even a description that indicates that MC is still learning some things. It's a description of a chronic failure. And I think it fits with the opinion you formed, in Canham's case at least, before he even coached his first game at OSU. You feel that you are right, as we all like to do, but you SAY you are wanting evidence to the contrary -- even saying that you would LOVE to be wrong. But I don't know that you accept any evidence to the contrary, whether that be the performance of the pitching staff up until the ASU game or the post-season appearances and wins. I think you can always find a way to support your original opinion, and probably will. I absolutely think there have been coaching errors by all coaches on every team I've ever cheered for. But don't expect me to spend a lot of time and energy pointing them out on a message board. I like to be patient and wait for the big picture to develop. I'd rather focus on the positive, because I think that is more productive. I would dread a team coached by the fans, especially those that are SURE they know better than the coaches do. Sure, some coaches just never seem to get the hang of things and just aren't any good at producing wins and developing players. I don't think that's the case for Canham or Dorman. Especially for a pitching coach, moves are made with a view of a whole season or a whole career. They don't need to always make sense to the fans. I think the overall results support the view that this coaching staff has a pretty good idea how to do their jobs. |
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Post by chinmusic on Apr 27, 2023 23:09:20 GMT -8
It is a very imperfect world. Coaches are no different than any other human, they make mistakes.
Questioning a coaching decision is fair game but you need to understand, you have little knowledge of what went into that decision. Coaches work with their players every day, you see them play at Goss Stadium - big difference. Coaches know strengths and weaknesses of a player - what tasks he is capable of executing and what he is incapable of doing. You may not have that knowledge. Coaches make moves two or three plays ahead of time, you may not see that. There are many components that go into baseball decisions but unless you are in that dugout, you are missing many of the components that went into making any decision.
And small ball? little ball, inside the diamond ...whatever you choose to term it, it's all there.
Have we bunted for a base hit?
Have we sacrificed to move a runner?
Have we attempted to advance on every mistake (PB, WP, etc) contact possible?
Have we attempted to steal bases?
Have we used a delayed steal on the 1st & 3d situation?
Have we played hit and run? Do you recognize that when you see it?
Have we used a safety squeeze?
I mean, WTF are you watching?
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Post by Judge Smails on Apr 28, 2023 4:57:29 GMT -8
It is a very imperfect world. Coaches are no different than any other human, they make mistakes. Questioning a coaching decision is fair game but you need to understand, you have little knowledge of what went into that decision. Coaches work with their players every day, you see them play at Goss Stadium - big difference. Coaches know strengths and weaknesses of a player - what tasks he is capable of executing and what he is incapable of doing. You may not have that knowledge. Coaches make moves two or three plays ahead of time, you may not see that. There are many components that go into baseball decisions but unless you are in that dugout, you are missing many of the components that went into making any decision. And small ball? little ball, inside the diamond ...whatever you choose to term it, it's all there. Have we bunted for a base hit? Have we sacrificed to move a runner? Have we attempted to advance on every mistake (PB, WP, etc) contact possible? Have we attempted to steal bases? Have we used a delayed steal on the 1st & 3d situation? Have we played hit and run? Do you recognize that when you see it? Have we used a safety squeeze? I mean, WTF are you watching? The other aspect that fans are in the dark on is player injuries. With the lack of public information, injuries play a huge factor in coaching decisions and the fans have little knowledge of who is banged up. |
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Post by messi on Apr 28, 2023 6:46:06 GMT -8
Some ASU bats aledgedly altered. They must have laid the bats on the ground in the full sun to allow thermal expansion. |
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Apr 28, 2023 8:25:03 GMT -8
I don't think the entire pitching staff "collapsing" is likely. I also don't think that we can lead the country in ERA if our HC and pitching coach are not ready for prime time. Same goes for not only making the post season but winning in the post season. I think the evidence is there that you are wrong, but you refuse to see or accept it. You're making my point for me Mike. We (did) lead the country in ERA before ASU, then suddenly our nation-leading staff can't get anyone out and throws gopherballs with regularity. In any case, my point is NOT that MC/Dorman are ALWAYS screwing up-- they don't. Rather, too often they make questionable in-game decisions or fail to pick up on opportunities when they present themselves. In doing so, often they fail to take maximum advantage of their player's talents. And, turning your final statement back to you...I suspect that you (and some others here) "refuse to see or accept" coaching errors by MC/Dorman...even when the evidence might well be there. Shohei Ohtani was great until yesterday he gave up two homers and five runs in the hapless A's in one inning. Guess he now sucks too. |
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Post by rgeorge on Apr 28, 2023 8:47:48 GMT -8
You're making my point for me Mike. We (did) lead the country in ERA before ASU, then suddenly our nation-leading staff can't get anyone out and throws gopherballs with regularity. In any case, my point is NOT that MC/Dorman are ALWAYS screwing up-- they don't. Rather, too often they make questionable in-game decisions or fail to pick up on opportunities when they present themselves. In doing so, often they fail to take maximum advantage of their player's talents. And, turning your final statement back to you...I suspect that you (and some others here) "refuse to see or accept" coaching errors by MC/Dorman...even when the evidence might well be there. Shohei Ohtani was great until yesterday he gave up two homers and five runs in the hapless A's in one inning. Guess he now sucks too. On another aspect... heard he's the ONLY PERSON in MLB history to have more hits (7) than hits given up (6) over his last 4 starts. The guy is a freak, but also a great example of allowing a young player to grow and not specialize. If he'd grown up in the US he'd probably have be used mainly as one or the other. It's very rare in recent times that college level talent is allowed to be both a starter on the bump and in the field. Yet there are kids that have been very successful at it thru HS. |
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Post by ag87 on Apr 28, 2023 10:00:45 GMT -8
Shohei Ohtani was great until yesterday he gave up two homers and five runs in the hapless A's in one inning. Guess he now sucks too. On another aspect... heard he's the ONLY PERSON in MLB history to have more hits (7) than hits given up (6) over his last 4 starts. The guy is a freak, but also a great example of allowing a young player to grow and not specialize. If he'd grown up in the US he'd probably have be used mainly as one or another. It's very rare in recent times that college level talent is allowed to be both a starter on the bump and in the field. Yet there are kids that have been very successful at it thru HS. I agree with this. If a guy is your best hitter, there is a good chance he would be a very good pitcher. And vice-versa, your top pitchers can probably hit. Much of the success of the 1986 team was allowing David Brundage, centerfielder, to pitch in the rotation the last few weeks of the season. |
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cake
Sophomore
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Post by cake on Apr 28, 2023 12:48:31 GMT -8
Some ASU bats aledgedly altered. I need some reminding. I think to end the gorilla ball era, 30 or so years ago, regulations were tightened on bats and specifically how much energy was transferred to the ball through contact. Is that right? If so, and the bats were "altered," the alterations increased how much velocity a batted ball would have after an identical swing with a "legal" bat? I thought the ASU pitchers were getting more low strikes called compared to our pitchers. I also thought that observation was a bias problem with me. Yeah, there were 2 stages to the bat changes.
First, BESR came along in 1998 and lasted until 2011. BBCOR became the standard in 2012.
BESR tried to regulate the ratio of exit velocity to swing speed and pitch speed.
BBCOR does basically the same thing, but has a lower ratio, so the bats are significantly more dead. They also have a much smaller sweet spot.
And yeah, if they tampered with a bat or added a BBCOR label to a BESR standard bat, or one of the completely unregulated bats they still make, or most likely, bat rolling, the exit velocities would be much higher.
I thought their spin rates were absurd, that would have been my guess as to how they were cheating, if they were cheating. One guy was spinning it close to 3000 RPM. That's ridiculous.
But it was tough to see much looking through the Vaseline covered lens on their potato quality cameras.
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Post by irimi on Apr 28, 2023 13:13:04 GMT -8
Shohei Ohtani was great until yesterday he gave up two homers and five runs in the hapless A's in one inning. Guess he now sucks too. On another aspect... heard he's the ONLY PERSON in MLB history to have more hits (7) than hits given up (6) over his last 4 starts. The guy is a freak, but also a great example of allowing a young player to grow and not specialize. If he'd grown up in the US he'd probably have be used mainly as one or the other. It's very rare in recent times that college level talent is allowed to be both a starter on the bump and in the field. Yet there are kids that have been very successful at it thru HS. But even in Japan at the pro level, pitchers are pitcher and hitters are hitters. Otani is special in that way, and while I agree with your basic premise, Otani falls so far outside that model that even in the US he would have found success at both. I think it’s the man more than the system. |
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Post by beaver1989 on Apr 28, 2023 13:52:10 GMT -8
On another aspect... heard he's the ONLY PERSON in MLB history to have more hits (7) than hits given up (6) over his last 4 starts. The guy is a freak, but also a great example of allowing a young player to grow and not specialize. If he'd grown up in the US he'd probably have be used mainly as one or another. It's very rare in recent times that college level talent is allowed to be both a starter on the bump and in the field. Yet there are kids that have been very successful at it thru HS. I agree with this. If a guy is your best hitter, there is a good chance he would be a very good pitcher. And vice-versa, your top pitchers can probably hit. Much of the success of the 1986 team was allowing David Brundage, centerfielder, to pitch in the rotation the last few weeks of the season. Anybody that witnessed Oregon St games in 1980's deserves a thumbs up. I was a kid that loved baseball and enjoyed a few games in that era. My dad was a friend of Tom Bowen who was the father of Ken Bowen, a stud short stop drafted by Kansas City.(IIRC Tom played for OSU in the 1950's) Ken played high school ball at Newberg, the high school I graduated from. Our legendary coach...... Pat Casey played high school ball there in the late 1970's. The good old days, when crowds were small, but the baseball was pretty good.(Nostalgia😀😀) |
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