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Post by nabeav on Sept 13, 2016 15:38:23 GMT -8
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Post by beav2007 on Sept 13, 2016 15:54:16 GMT -8
Here's the thing. So many have wanted #blm protestor to do so peacefully. I'm not sure how much more peaceful it gets.
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Post by jdogge on Sept 13, 2016 16:12:22 GMT -8
3rd party observation: That's solid asterisk use.. Always keeps'em guessing. lol dipsuit dipseat dipseet dipsuet lots of possibilities here! dipsuit -- British English dipseat -- Australian dipseet -- Indian [Sub-continent] dipsuet -- French
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mike
Freshman
Posts: 6
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Post by mike on Sept 13, 2016 19:07:36 GMT -8
It is the racists disrespecting the anthem, our flag, and what they stand for. Land of the Free might ring a little hollow for anyone harassed by the police, or who has to deal with the receiving end of racism, or anyone who has been treated less than equal in the eyes of this nation. This country made some terrible mistakes when it has come to defining equality. It was white men, making those mistakes.
As a white male who grew up on a farm in Idaho... I will never be "offended" by a man or a woman who is fighting to get the same level of freedom this country has given me since birth.
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Post by nabeav on Sept 13, 2016 19:42:06 GMT -8
And nowhere does it say "one time." Thanks for playing. Easy big fella. I was posting it in support of your claim that he did it multiple times. They are socks with Porky Pig on them. Nobody understood the significance of it until he started doing something people noticed.
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Post by 93beav on Sept 13, 2016 19:45:49 GMT -8
Media has been talking about it for 3 weeks. that is a lifetime in the ADHD world of news. Will it bring around change? doubtful. Are people talking about it? yes. Has others joined in the protest? yes. have people taken new twists on it, like the black panther's esque fist raising? yep. Let me explain why this is not effective. First, the vast, vast, vast, vast (did I mention vast yet?) majority of coverage is in what he is doing not the cause he is doing it for. He could be supporting the right of penguins to rule Tanzania for all the media cares. Secondly, instead of actually adding to the conversation he's polarized it. It's really unlikely, IMO, that someone who was on the fence about the status of black people in America went "Gee, Kap decided to protest using the nation anthem, I guess I'd better get out there and do something." You could argue that other NFL players have joined in, so I guess it's non-zero but let's just all be realistic for a moment and agree that NFL players are an elite little club that neither you or I will ever join. It's certainly unlikely that someone who initially disagreed has suddenly taken a different stance. I'm going to go a bit cynical here, so bear with me, but it seems like someone who has millions and millions of dollars at his disposal and access to people with other millions and millions of dollars could enact more effectual action. Finally, and I say this from a point of quasi-historical ignorance because I wasn't around then (but I'm well aware of what went on), I'm not sure that having players suddenly pulling out Black Panthers symbolism is really a good thing. The Black Panthers were not the solution. If people want to walk down some romanticized historical lane (note: people who wear Che t-shirts), I guess that is also their right. But at some point people's "rights" may eventually translate into action that in unstoppable and unwarranted. And I hope that before that point is reached calmer, wiser heads can prevail.
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Post by spudbeaver on Sept 13, 2016 19:56:20 GMT -8
. And I hope that before that point is reached calmer, wiser heads can prevail.
[/quote][
I think the wiser heads (in society, not this board per se) are becoming more scarce.
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Post by zebraworks on Sept 13, 2016 20:50:35 GMT -8
I think KAP has more attention from folks than people that were shot by LEO's and unarmed, there's something horribly wrong about that coupled with the fact that in most cases the only people that pay any price for these incidents are tax payers with civil judgements. Not that long ago LAPD was wigged out about ex-cop Dorner and his killing spree that they opened fire on two separate pickup trucks (wrong color and wrong make mind you on one of them) and wounded people in the process. Those officers were not FIRED! unbelievable.
If you compare how many people are shot by law enforcement in other western countries to the US it shows we have a serious problem that save for "body cameras" is seemingly not being addressed as DA's don't like to prosecute and juries rarely convict.
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Post by seastape on Sept 14, 2016 8:36:50 GMT -8
If you saw a fan not stand during the anthem at Reser on Saturday, would it bother anyone? I'm sure it would bother a lot of people, but not me. I don't care if people stand sit, or kneel for the national anthem. I don't think the national anthem should be played at every sporting event. Since it is, I think people should be quiet and still so others who appreciate it can listen to the show.
It has become an Oath to America ceremony in which many people judge others to see if they hold to some pre-decided ideal. Are you standing? Did you take off your hat? Is your hand over your heart? Are you singing? Are tears threatening to seep from your eyes as you are swept by patriotic fervor? Are tears actually flowing? Are you properly thinking about our fallen heroes from every war in our nation's 240 year history, or are you failing to think the right thoughts? I sure hope you're not a communist! I don't want any commies at football games! blah blah blah
It's just a song written, incidentally, by a slaveowner, which makes "land of the free" a rather odd choice of lyrics.
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Post by nabeav on Sept 14, 2016 8:46:53 GMT -8
The tears streaming down the face thing is exactly why I stopped going to church. I was a senior in high school, and this girl in the pew in front of me was crying during a hymn and looking towards heaven as we sang about "are you there God, can you hear me?" or something along those lines. I was like "wow, if this is affecting her that much and I'm not feeling it, maybe this isn't the place for me."
I hope I never get to that point with my country.
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Post by nabeav on Sept 14, 2016 12:31:46 GMT -8
Ah, the Rotating Tap....where hotly debated topics go to die.....
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Post by mbabeav on Sept 14, 2016 12:56:58 GMT -8
The National Anthem, as the story goes, was a song popular with military bands grabbed by the US Olympic Team at the first modern Olympics because each team needed a "national" song, and the US had nothing. Then baseball teams started using it before the start of games, and President Wilson made it the official song to be used for appropriate military times - but the competition between baseball teams to use it, and a Ripley's Believe it or Not cartoon announcing that the US had no national anthem helped spur the passing of a law making it official (something that had been tried for several years).
Despite what has been posted on-line in places, there is no law that says that any specific behavior is mandated during the playing of the National Anthem, and while I might chose to behave in what has become the traditional way to honor our country when it is played, I am not going to hold anyone else to that standard. The fact that others "honor" it by recognizing its meaning as freedom to peacefully protest - I mean most people consider the men from the 1968 Olympics as meaningful in a positive way now (tho it took a long time) - is for me another representation of our strengths, not our weaknesses.
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Post by TheGlove on Sept 14, 2016 13:31:00 GMT -8
Ah, the Rotating Tap....where hotly debated topics go to die..... Very cogent point on this hot topic. Thanks for your contribution.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Sept 15, 2016 13:47:38 GMT -8
If you saw a fan not stand during the anthem at Reser on Saturday, would it bother anyone? I'm sure it would bother a lot of people, but not me. I don't care if people stand sit, or kneel for the national anthem. I don't think the national anthem should be played at every sporting event. Since it is, I think people should be quiet and still so others who appreciate it can listen to the show.
It has become an Oath to America ceremony in which many people judge others to see if they hold to some pre-decided ideal. Are you standing? Did you take off your hat? Is your hand over your heart? Are you singing? Are tears threatening to seep from your eyes as you are swept by patriotic fervor? Are tears actually flowing? Are you properly thinking about our fallen heroes from every war in our nation's 240 year history, or are you failing to think the right thoughts? I sure hope you're not a communist! I don't want any commies at football games! blah blah blah
It's just a song written, incidentally, by a slaveowner, which makes "land of the free" a rather odd choice of lyrics.
If Key was to do what he did today, he would be a criminal. However, he did not live in our time. At that time, people were almost literally slaves of the king or queen of their countries (or at least they felt like they were). So, to say that the United States was the land of the free was wildly accurate. I mean England actively (or at least very passively) sought to exterminate the Irish in the Great Potato Famine in the 1840s and 1850s and killed, enslaved, and deported the Irish in the decades and centuries before. As for Francis Scott Key, he owned slaves but released seven of his slaves in his lifetime (that may have been all of his slaves, but I cannot figure that out definitively). He also worked pro bono to release several slaves from their masters. He worked to free the more than 400 slaves of John Randolph of Roanoke and to provide them with land to support themselves for over a decade. One newspaper editorial indicated that Key was so anti-slavery that he was referred to derisively as the "Ni--er Lawyer." Perfect? Certainly not, but he was more anti-slavery than several of his countrymen at the time. One need only remember that Ulysses S. Grant, the champion of the North was a slave-owner until 1859. The "free" states of New Hampshire and New Jersey still had slaves until passage of the 13th Amendment in 1865. The whole issue of slavery is a very complex one. I do not think that you should try and paint people in broad strokes as "good" or "bad" based on the issue without looking at the all of the facts first.
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Post by seastape on Sept 16, 2016 10:54:33 GMT -8
I'm sure it would bother a lot of people, but not me. I don't care if people stand sit, or kneel for the national anthem. I don't think the national anthem should be played at every sporting event. Since it is, I think people should be quiet and still so others who appreciate it can listen to the show.
It has become an Oath to America ceremony in which many people judge others to see if they hold to some pre-decided ideal. Are you standing? Did you take off your hat? Is your hand over your heart? Are you singing? Are tears threatening to seep from your eyes as you are swept by patriotic fervor? Are tears actually flowing? Are you properly thinking about our fallen heroes from every war in our nation's 240 year history, or are you failing to think the right thoughts? I sure hope you're not a communist! I don't want any commies at football games! blah blah blah
It's just a song written, incidentally, by a slaveowner, which makes "land of the free" a rather odd choice of lyrics.
If Key was to do what he did today, he would be a criminal. However, he did not live in our time. At that time, people were almost literally slaves of the king or queen of their countries (or at least they felt like they were). So, to say that the United States was the land of the free was wildly accurate. I mean England actively (or at least very passively) sought to exterminate the Irish in the Great Potato Famine in the 1840s and 1850s and killed, enslaved, and deported the Irish in the decades and centuries before. As for Francis Scott Key, he owned slaves but released seven of his slaves in his lifetime (that may have been all of his slaves, but I cannot figure that out definitively). He also worked pro bono to release several slaves from their masters. He worked to free the more than 400 slaves of John Randolph of Roanoke and to provide them with land to support themselves for over a decade. One newspaper editorial indicated that Key was so anti-slavery that he was referred to derisively as the "Ni--er Lawyer." Perfect? Certainly not, but he was more anti-slavery than several of his countrymen at the time. One need only remember that Ulysses S. Grant, the champion of the North was a slave-owner until 1859. The "free" states of New Hampshire and New Jersey still had slaves until passage of the 13th Amendment in 1865. The whole issue of slavery is a very complex one. I do not think that you should try and paint people in broad strokes as "good" or "bad" based on the issue without looking at the all of the facts first. I actually have looked at a lot of these facts that you have stated, and fairly in-depth at that. Francis Scott Key was actually all over the place on the slavery issue; as a practicing private lawyer and as a prosecutor, he tried both pro- and anti-slavery cases. Yes, he was a man of his times, but I think people give way too much leeway on the issue of slavery in the 19th century. Obvious slavery existed, but the abolitionist was well underway by the late 18th century and there were many people advocating the end of that "peculiar institution" long before the Civil War occurred. Contemporaries of Francis Scott Key did criticize his "land of the free" line in the context of him as slave owner.
Sorry I turned this into a political discussion. I know people are trying to avoid it on the board.
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