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Post by grayman on Jan 10, 2023 13:18:12 GMT -8
So many posters have mentioned that they thought TVO has looked like she might be ill or off in some way.
Beav74 has said that TVO does have a nagging injury but that it does not need immediate attention and that "I don't think there is a lot of pain nor a chance of further damage."
My question is that I'm puzzled by what poster think they are seeing when they watch TVO play. I'll be honest, at first I did think that people were making excuses for her.
But when you look at the statistics, to imply that she looks off or whatever doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
I'm going to skip over her 20-21 stats because she only played in 13 games and did not start, etc.
Last season:
TVO played 27.8 minutes per game and started all 31 games.
She was 144-for-357 from the field for a .403 average and was 57-163 from 3-point range (.362).
She hit 78-88 free throws (.888).
She averaged 13.7 points per game, 13.9 in the Pac-12.
She averaged 3.9 rebounds a game, had 49 fouls.
She had 94 assists and 91 turnovers.
This season:
TVO averages 31.5 minutes a game and has started all 16 games.
She is 84-202 from the field (.416) and 28-88 (.318) on 3s.
She has made 59-66 FTs (.894).
She averages 15.9 points a game, 11.2 in conference
She averages 5.7 rebounds and has 28 fouls.
She has 55 assists and 42 turnovers
The only things I can point to is that her 3-point shooting is down and her Pac-12 scoring is down.
Pretty much every other area is up. She's playing more minutes, her scoring is up, her rebounds are way up and her assist to turnover ratio is better.
So is it just the 3-point shooting and/or the Pac-12 scoring? She had a ton of turnovers last season, so that's not new.
Is someone really seeing something that is off with her game that I haven't covered or is it a maybe a matter of expectations that are just too high?
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Post by lotrader on Jan 10, 2023 15:48:09 GMT -8
First, TvO is a stud. I think OSU fans think she has much more upside. What I see holding her back is her ball handling skills, but more importantly, her decision making at key moments. It is not necessarily the number of turnovers, it is when those turnovers happen during the course of the game. TvO's turnovers either happen when she "shows" the ball to a defender, and she gets stripped for an uncontested lay-in. These are the same turnovers TvO experienced last season. Additionally, many of her turnovers are "unforced", not caused by the defense. Lazy passes or low percentage passes. These can be cleaned up as well. That is what I mean when I say TvO has more upside, but she is holding herself back.
I have noticed in the past few games that TvO has really stepped up on defense. Staying with her player, moving her feet, great hands resulting in steals, blocking shots, and great rebounding. I'd like to see her work harder without the ball to give herself a split second more to set her feet firmly before her shot. TvO is our best outside threat and mid range threat.
And I wouldn't want her on any other team beside our team. TvO is also a really fine young lady, which for me as a fan, as important as anything else.
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Post by rmancarl on Jan 10, 2023 16:06:53 GMT -8
Watching the replay of the ASU game, Syd mentioned a screen that Talia made which enabled Bendu to make a perfect pass inside to Raegan. This is not the first time recently I've heard commentators (and in some cases coaches) comment on something TVO was doing to help the team. Stuff that we may often miss. I've said this before, but I believe in most areas, including leadership, TVO is having a good season, and I commented to you before the Arizona games that all her numbers were better except for 3pt shooting. Her role has changed. We counted on her last season as the main person who could put the ball in the basket. The team was woefully short on scorers. That's still a little problem, but is improving as the season goes along and with the emergence of Raegan.
There were (as has been since last season) a lot of comments about Talia's TO's and difficulty with the press and some mentioned this after the Arizona State games, but I didn't hear anything about Noelle's 2 bad inbound passes (or AJ's) in the final minutes. I think this is because we do have high expectations of Talia and because she has a bit of a reputation for TO's so it lingers even though it has been better this year, and even though many star quality players have high TO numbers. Take a look at who has the most TO's in NBA history and you'll find a list of the greatest players of all time.
Some on this board say Talia is in a slump, but I think the fair answer is that she is in a shooting slump, but not an overall game slump. It does appear that she may be dealing with an issue that is a hinderance, so I do believe what Beav74 says. Her rebounding in particular have been an added boost this season.
Letting her teammates speak for her.....
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beav74
Freshman
Posts: 741
Grad Year: OSU 1974
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Post by beav74 on Jan 10, 2023 16:35:03 GMT -8
One thing with Talia is teams can totally concentrate on her in terms of 3 point shooting. We don’t have like in years past a tandom of (Weisner/ Wiese), or (Goodman/Solcum) of 3 point shooters. Talia is pretty much it! Teams can double team….(ie Oregon “watch out for number 22”).
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Post by beavblvr on Jan 10, 2023 17:00:00 GMT -8
Well stated rmancarl and beav74. Love TVO, she is the heartbeat of this team and will give everything she has to help her team win. As Raegan said, she’s a great leader and this team no doubt needs her on the floor. She finds a way to contribute even when shots aren’t falling, and continues to battle as evidenced by her double-doubles! Her little slump will end, which will just open things up even more for Raegan and others. Hopefully Timea’s addition may provide some more offensive threat that will help relieve some of the pressure off Talia, AJ can continue her aggressive scoring, and everyone can continue to hit some outside shots like this past weekend. Look forwarding to watch the team keep improving this weekend vs. the Washington schools. Go Beavs!
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Post by standerd on Jan 10, 2023 17:59:22 GMT -8
Well said Beavblvr. I admit that I was a little discouraged for awhile this season; but to watch these women grow as a team, to increase how they contribute and trust each other, and to compete with heart has been a great thing to watch. I only see things getting better (rose-colored glasses I guess) as the season inches forward. Go Beavs!
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Post by finleybandbeav on Jan 10, 2023 18:28:49 GMT -8
TVO is an elite-level player. That's what I see.
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Post by grayman on Jan 10, 2023 20:05:23 GMT -8
TVO is an elite-level player. That's what I see. If you're saying that TVO being a great all-around player who is very good at several different aspects of the game equals elite, sure, I can see that. If you're saying that she's an elite scorer, not really. Or ballhandler, no. I think she's a great all-around player but more of a high level complementary player than a star (elite) player and I think the need for her to thrive as a complementary player has gone up with the arrival of Beers as the go-to player on offense. |
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Post by bvrbooster on Jan 10, 2023 20:27:23 GMT -8
I agree with all the positive things said by everybody, but want to throw in a little aside.
Rmancarl says to look at the list of players with the most turnovers in NBA history and you'll see the names of some of the greats. Same, I'm sure, is true of baseball players with the most strikeouts and quarterbacks with the most interceptions. Why? Because they're the guys who were playing the most games for the most years.
True, some of Talia's turnovers (a TVO TO?) can be maddening, but she plays the most minutes. More minutes, more turnovers. Adlee ain't going to have the most turnovers on the team.
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Post by beaveragain on Jan 10, 2023 20:55:19 GMT -8
On why I feel that Talia has had a couple of off games. One of Talia's better abilities is that when she's open she immediately shoots. This has not been a feature of many of SR's players and is a wonderful addition back to the team. But in two of the games this year Talia wasn't recognizing when she had an open shot, which indicates to me fatigue or illness.
The only quibble that I'd have with what everyone is saying, who is a Talia booster that is, is that I think that Bendu is the true leader this year. I don't get the impression that Talia is a loud talker out on the court, and with all of the newbies out there it's good to have Bendu yelling out directions/encouragement to them. Maybe someone who sits courtside could clarify this situation.
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Post by grayman on Jan 10, 2023 21:02:21 GMT -8
I agree with all the positive things said by everybody, but want to throw in a little aside. Rmancarl says to look at the list of players with the most turnovers in NBA history and you'll see the names of some of the greats. Same, I'm sure, is true of baseball players with the most strikeouts and quarterbacks with the most interceptions. Why? Because they're the guys who were playing the most games for the most years. True, some of Talia's turnovers (a TVO TO?) can be maddening, but she plays the most minutes. More minutes, more turnovers. Adlee ain't going to have the most turnovers on the team. Well, yeah, the more you play and the more you have the ball in your hands, the more turnovers you will have. That's particularly true for point guards. Last year TVO had 91 turnovers with 94 assists. To put it in perspective, Sydney Wiese had 97 turnovers with 154 assists in 2016-17. Destiny Slocum had 94 TOs with 165 assists in 17-18. Slocum had 97 TOs with 153 assists and Mikayla Pivec had 76 TOs with 114 assists, in 18-19. Slocum had 76 TOs with 150 assists and Pivec 76 with 145 in 19-20. In 20-21, Aleah Goodman had 47 turnovers with 98 assists in a shortened season..TVO has 55 assists and 45 TOs this season So TVO's 91 TOs last year weren't the most in recent seasons as Slocum had three more one year, six the other and Wiese six more, but look at the assist to turnover ratio for those players and all others as well. Much, much better. I can tell with my own eyes that TVO is not the best ballhandler in the world when under pressure and the stats bear that out. TVO does not have great skills to play point guard and she really doesn't for the most part now. If she would maybe not try to do too much off the dribble and take care on her passes more consistently (she's actually a good passer IMO, but she forces some and is too lackadaisical on others...meaning I've seen her just whip one-handed passes to players and she went behind the back in a recent game as well and those look cool but are not really high percentage and always accurate) then she would cut down on the turnovers. |
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Post by grayman on Jan 10, 2023 21:04:24 GMT -8
On why I feel that Talia has had a couple of off games. One of Talia's better abilities is that when she's open she immediately shoots. This has not been a feature of many of SR's players and is a wonderful addition back to the team. But in two of the games this year Talia wasn't recognizing when she had an open shot, which indicates to me fatigue or illness. The only quibble that I'd have with what everyone is saying, who is a Talia booster that is, is that I think that Bendu is the true leader this year. I don't get the impression that Talia is a loud talker out on the court, and with all of the newbies out there it's good to have Bendu yelling out directions/encouragement to them. Maybe someone who sits courtside could clarify this situation. Interesting take |
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Post by rmancarl on Jan 10, 2023 21:07:00 GMT -8
I think we can all agree that TVO needs to work towards less TO's. She makes some careless passes, and some passes that may be characterized as too good for the talent around her. She allows herself to dribble into trouble at times. I've said this before, most great players also have a lot of TO's. Raegan had one game this year with 7 TO's. She doesn't handle the ball as much as the guards, but can be surrounded with smaller, quicker players. Syd had years with over 100 TO's while playing with the Beavs. Catlin Clark had over 140 last year. Not saying that is an excuse for anyone to have TO's. It's something TVO, and many other players need to work on.
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Post by grayman on Jan 10, 2023 21:11:19 GMT -8
I think we can all agree that TVO needs to work towards less TO's. She makes some careless passes, and some passes that may be characterized as too good for the talent around her. She allows herself to dribble into trouble at times. I've said this before, most great players also have a lot of TO's. Raegan had one game this year with 7 TO's. She doesn't handle the ball as much as the guards, but can be surrounded with smaller, quicker players. Syd had years with over 100 TO's while playing with the Beavs. Catlin Clark had over 140 last year. Not saying that is an excuse for anyone to have TO's. It's something TVO, and many other players need to work on. I will add that assist to turnover ratio is really the best way to determine if the the TOs are a particularly notable problem (mostly for guards) as I pointed out above. You can have 100 turnovers, but if you have 170 assists, you're probably playing pretty well. EDIT: Just looked Caitlin Clark's stats from last year. She had 152 turnovers, but 257 assists. She also scored 27 points a game and had eight rebounds a game. Just crazy. That's what an elite player is capable of. |
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Post by rmancarl on Jan 10, 2023 21:22:46 GMT -8
I agree with all the positive things said by everybody, but want to throw in a little aside. Rmancarl says to look at the list of players with the most turnovers in NBA history and you'll see the names of some of the greats. Same, I'm sure, is true of baseball players with the most strikeouts and quarterbacks with the most interceptions. Why? Because they're the guys who were playing the most games for the most years. True, some of Talia's turnovers (a TVO TO?) can be maddening, but she plays the most minutes. More minutes, more turnovers. Adlee ain't going to have the most turnovers on the team. Well, yeah, the more you play and the more you have the ball in your hands, the more turnovers you will have. That's particularly true for point guards. Last year TVO had 91 turnovers with 94 assists. To put it in perspective, Sydney Wiese had 97 turnovers with 154 assists in 2016-17. Destiny Slocum had 94 TOs with 165 assists in 17-18. Slocum had 97 TOs with 153 assists and Mikayla Pivec had 76 TOs with 114 assists, in 18-19. Slocum had 76 TOs with 150 assists and Pivec 76 with 145 in 19-20. In 20-21, Aleah Goodman had 47 turnovers with 98 assists in a shortened season..TVO has 55 assists and 45 TOs this season So TVO's 91 TOs last year weren't the most in recent seasons as Slocum had three more one year, six the other and Wiese six more, but look at the assist to turnover ratio for those players and all others as well. Much, much better. I can tell with my own eyes that TVO is not the best ballhandler in the world when under pressure and the stats bear that out. TVO does not have great skills to play point guard and she really doesn't for the most part now. If she would maybe not try to do too much off the dribble and take care on her passes more consistently (she's actually a good passer IMO, but she forces some and is too lackadaisical on others...meaning I've seen her just whip one-handed passes to players and she went behind the back in a recent game as well and those look cool but are not really high percentage and always accurate) then she would cut down on the turnovers. I agree with you regarding Talia's assist to TO ratio, I also wonder how much better last season would have looked for Talia had she been surrounded by better scorers. She was just about the only guard who could score. Ellie finished strong and that helped, but Talia didn't have a 'Raegan' to pass the ball to. Kennedy had a poor shooting year, Jelena wasn't where she is this year. Tea, Emily, AJ, etc, just weren't great shooters. We'll never know, but I bet Talia could have added another 10-20 assist if she had players around her who could score. |
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