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Post by Werebeaver on Feb 27, 2022 14:55:13 GMT -8
For sure. Hard to find a shred of sympathy for anyone in Russia right now. That said, hearing about 2 Russian transport planes being shot down with 150 paratroopers in each doesn't make me feel any better. That's tragic no matter who you are. If there was any question before hand it has become completely obvious that this was a HUGE mistake by Putin and Russia. In a twist of irony, I predict one way or another that this will be the end of Putin, and it will be Zalensky who will survive this and will emerge the "victor". If there can be one. The idea that a puppet govt would hold up in Ukraine, even if Russia does take the territory, is as delusional as the idea that anyone could possibly just redraw the borders of other countries at will in this day and age. The strategic goal in all of this is impossible to understand because there isn't one. Reports are now coming out that the captured Russian forces were told this is a training exercise. Imagine your surprise if you think that, and your platoon starts taking live fire. How long are you going to stand and fight when you weren't even expecting resistance, and when the objective is dubious at best? This is more than just the irrational, meandering, paranoid lashing out of one psycho or the misguided fervor of a good part of the Russian population. I'm convinced the Russian military brass was sold on a modern world "closing in on them" in more ways than one, including a diminishing return on their military "might". What good is a bunch of tanks in a world where tiny drones can fly around dropping bombs on a force built for the wars of yesterday? It was now or never for the Russian military to make a move before their hardware becomes obsolete, along with their notions of the world order. Hard not to laugh at Putin's warning to not intercede or face the wrath of the Russian military. Buddy, you can't even successfully blitzkrieg a neighboring country that you hold a giant military advantage over. Might want to check yourself their bub. That’s a cold statement. Russia isn’t exactly a democracy, and lots of Russian people do not support Putin. Many of them do not want this war at all. Many of them have family or friends in Ukraine. If you live in Oregon, we have a large number of Russians and Ukrainians who live here. Talk to some. Find out what they think. You might be surprised. To paraphrase General Sherman: ”War is the remedy that (Ukraine’s) enemies have chosen, and I say let (Ukraine)* give them all they want. *with the world’s help |
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Post by TheGlove on Feb 27, 2022 15:00:16 GMT -8
Can you imagine driving your family across the border to Canada and coming back to fight an invading force on the streets of your hometown?
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Post by lebaneaver on Feb 27, 2022 15:59:42 GMT -8
I’ll add; can ANYONE here imagine Roosevelt or Churchill PRAISING Hitler and calling him “brilliant” and “savvy” after invading Poland? I can’t either. Politics, my ass.
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Post by irimi on Feb 27, 2022 17:07:58 GMT -8
That’s a cold statement. Russia isn’t exactly a democracy, and lots of Russian people do not support Putin. Many of them do not want this war at all. Many of them have family or friends in Ukraine. If you live in Oregon, we have a large number of Russians and Ukrainians who live here. Talk to some. Find out what they think. You might be surprised. To paraphrase General Sherman: ”War is the remedy that (Ukraine’s) enemies have chosen, and I say let (Ukraine)* give them all they want. *with the world’s help “Have chosen” clearly indicates that they’ve had a say in the matter. But Russia is full of propaganda, from stories of Russian children being crucified to being told that the “military operation” (it is forbidden to call it a war) is going well and that the Russian forces are not killing civilians or even soldiers but liberating them. They are being told that Russia is liberating the poor Ukrainian people from the neo-Nazis in the government. Videos show how the Russians are assisting the poor Ukrainian people. Before this, about two weeks ago, three 14 year olds were arrested for planning to build the Federal Security Service building in Minecraft and then blow it up…in Minecraft. One boy will spend 5 years in jail for this crime. The people of Russia are oppressed by their government. Don’t be fooled into thinking that they are their government. And don’t assume that Russia, like the US, is probably split 50-50 on the issue. |
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Post by beavheart on Feb 27, 2022 18:42:38 GMT -8
To paraphrase General Sherman: ”War is the remedy that (Ukraine’s) enemies have chosen, and I say let (Ukraine)* give them all they want. *with the world’s help “Have chosen” clearly indicates that they’ve had a say in the matter. But Russia is full of propaganda, from stories of Russian children being crucified to being told that the “military operation” (it is forbidden to call it a war) is going well and that the Russian forces are not killing civilians or even soldiers but liberating them. They are being told that Russia is liberating the poor Ukrainian people from the neo-Nazis in the government. Videos show how the Russians are assisting the poor Ukrainian people. Before this, about two weeks ago, three 14 year olds were arrested for planning to build the Federal Security Service building in Minecraft and then blow it up…in Minecraft. One boy will spend 5 years in jail for this crime. The people of Russia are oppressed by their government. Don’t be fooled into thinking that they are their government. And don’t assume that Russia, like the US, is probably split 50-50 on the issue. Yeah, I'm not sure why you singled out the first sentence and then disregarded the rest of my post, but we are in agreement on this. It's why I suggested that "someone", aka someone in Russia, should take Putin out. Because, he is clearly the driving force behind all of this. Cut off the head of the snake, and the body dies. I say that, because unless a Russian is part of the tiny sliver of people out actively protesting in the streets, they are partially complicit in this whole thing. It's not our fault that they have stood idly by while Putin has murdered his adversaries and manipulated his way to Tzar-status over the last couple of decades. What about the many Russian soldiers carrying out the orders to attack Ukraine? Russians dying in a ridiculous war is just as tragic a loss as the Ukrainians they might be killing. No one wins in this. But, one side is clearly on the side of right side of history, and one side is clearly NOT on the right side. I want to sympathize with the Russians who are being fed a raft of BS. Especially after the last several years here in the US. But, they are about to drag the whole world into a protracted war that could effect us all. And I'm supposed to shed a tear for the average Russian that is just mistaken? Ooops, we f#%&ed up EVERYTHING! Sorry guys. |
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Post by irimi on Feb 27, 2022 19:41:20 GMT -8
“Have chosen” clearly indicates that they’ve had a say in the matter. But Russia is full of propaganda, from stories of Russian children being crucified to being told that the “military operation” (it is forbidden to call it a war) is going well and that the Russian forces are not killing civilians or even soldiers but liberating them. They are being told that Russia is liberating the poor Ukrainian people from the neo-Nazis in the government. Videos show how the Russians are assisting the poor Ukrainian people. Before this, about two weeks ago, three 14 year olds were arrested for planning to build the Federal Security Service building in Minecraft and then blow it up…in Minecraft. One boy will spend 5 years in jail for this crime. The people of Russia are oppressed by their government. Don’t be fooled into thinking that they are their government. And don’t assume that Russia, like the US, is probably split 50-50 on the issue. Yeah, I'm not sure why you singled out the first sentence and then disregarded the rest of my post, but we are in agreement on this. It's why I suggested that "someone", aka someone in Russia, should take Putin out. Because, he is clearly the driving force behind all of this. Cut off the head of the snake, and the body dies. I say that, because unless a Russian is part of the tiny sliver of people out actively protesting in the streets, they are partially complicit in this whole thing. It's not our fault that they have stood idly by while Putin has murdered his adversaries and manipulated his way to Tzar-status over the last couple of decades. What about the many Russian soldiers carrying out the orders to attack Ukraine? Russians dying in a ridiculous war is just as tragic a loss as the Ukrainians they might be killing. No one wins in this. But, one side is clearly on the side of right side of history, and one side is clearly NOT on the right side. I want to sympathize with the Russians who are being fed a raft of BS. Especially after the last several years here in the US. But, they are about to drag the whole world into a protracted war that could effect us all. And I'm supposed to shed a tear for the average Russian that is just mistaken? Ooops, we f#%&ed up EVERYTHING! Sorry guys. I guess I feel empathy for the people of Russia because I am a citizen of the US, which has been involved in many wars that I have disagreed with. Am I complicit simply because I live here? Was I supposed to go to DC and take out the President at that time? Would that have solved anything? And we live in a democracy, so my culpability theoretically should be much higher than a typical Russian who doesn’t have access to unregulated news and information, and who sees opponents of Putin murdered or jailed. If this war does become larger, then you will see that what I say is true. Some of the media has already reported instances of Russian soldiers giving up because they didn’t want to fight in Ukraine. You’ll see more of that if the war grows. |
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Post by beavheart on Feb 27, 2022 20:25:59 GMT -8
Yeah, I'm not sure why you singled out the first sentence and then disregarded the rest of my post, but we are in agreement on this. It's why I suggested that "someone", aka someone in Russia, should take Putin out. Because, he is clearly the driving force behind all of this. Cut off the head of the snake, and the body dies. I say that, because unless a Russian is part of the tiny sliver of people out actively protesting in the streets, they are partially complicit in this whole thing. It's not our fault that they have stood idly by while Putin has murdered his adversaries and manipulated his way to Tzar-status over the last couple of decades. What about the many Russian soldiers carrying out the orders to attack Ukraine? Russians dying in a ridiculous war is just as tragic a loss as the Ukrainians they might be killing. No one wins in this. But, one side is clearly on the side of right side of history, and one side is clearly NOT on the right side. I want to sympathize with the Russians who are being fed a raft of BS. Especially after the last several years here in the US. But, they are about to drag the whole world into a protracted war that could effect us all. And I'm supposed to shed a tear for the average Russian that is just mistaken? Ooops, we f#%&ed up EVERYTHING! Sorry guys. I guess I feel empathy for the people of Russia because I am a citizen of the US, which has been involved in many wars that I have disagreed with. Am I complicit simply because I live here? Was I supposed to go to DC and take out the President at that time? Would that have solved anything? And we live in a democracy, so my culpability theoretically should be much higher than a typical Russian who doesn’t have access to unregulated news and information, and who sees opponents of Putin murdered or jailed. If this war does become larger, then you will see that what I say is true. Some of the media has already reported instances of Russian soldiers giving up because they didn’t want to fight in Ukraine. You’ll see more of that if the war grows. This "war" is tantamount to us lopping off most of British Columbia and calling it our own, and rolling in our tanks to kill a bunch of Canadians in the process because BC used to be a part of the Oregon territory once upon a time. All of it completely unprovoked. Yeah, I would have something to say about that! Were something that nuts to happen I would very much expect our troops to NOT carry out the orders to invade Canada. I was for war after 9/11, and live to regret it. But, we were justified at the time, as misguided as we were. This has no justification, whatsoever. Big difference IMO. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 27, 2022 20:55:55 GMT -8
I guess I feel empathy for the people of Russia because I am a citizen of the US, which has been involved in many wars that I have disagreed with. Am I complicit simply because I live here? Was I supposed to go to DC and take out the President at that time? Would that have solved anything? And we live in a democracy, so my culpability theoretically should be much higher than a typical Russian who doesn’t have access to unregulated news and information, and who sees opponents of Putin murdered or jailed. If this war does become larger, then you will see that what I say is true. Some of the media has already reported instances of Russian soldiers giving up because they didn’t want to fight in Ukraine. You’ll see more of that if the war grows. This "war" is tantamount to us lopping off most of British Columbia and calling it our own, and rolling in our tanks to kill a bunch of Canadians in the process because BC used to be a part of the Oregon territory once upon a time. All of it completely unprovoked. Yeah, I would have something to say about that! Were something that nuts to happen I would very much expect our troops to NOT carry out the orders to invade Canada. I was for war after 9/11, and live to regret it. But, we were justified at the time, as misguided as we were. This has no justification, whatsoever. Big difference IMO. I was for the War in Afghanistan, because it was necessary to destroy Al Qaeda leadership there there. But I can't believe that we let it continue into a second decade without an exit strategy. The fact that it was allowed to almost drift into a third decade is a real failure of leadership. I was never for the War in Iraq. That always seemed stupid, and, looking back 19 years in the future, it seems dumber still. I agree that this is different. But I believe that Putin is already equating it to the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, which also seemed stupid at the time, and, looking back 23 years in the future, it seems dumber still. What was the United States' justification for getting involved in Yugoslavia? Or Iraq? Or Libya? I agree 100% that there is a huge difference between the Invasion of Afghanistan and the Invasion Ukraine. Also, British Columbia was a part of "Oregon Country," prior to 1846. I do not believe that Oregon Territory ever included any part of British Columbia. |
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Post by irimi on Feb 27, 2022 20:59:27 GMT -8
I guess I feel empathy for the people of Russia because I am a citizen of the US, which has been involved in many wars that I have disagreed with. Am I complicit simply because I live here? Was I supposed to go to DC and take out the President at that time? Would that have solved anything? And we live in a democracy, so my culpability theoretically should be much higher than a typical Russian who doesn’t have access to unregulated news and information, and who sees opponents of Putin murdered or jailed. If this war does become larger, then you will see that what I say is true. Some of the media has already reported instances of Russian soldiers giving up because they didn’t want to fight in Ukraine. You’ll see more of that if the war grows. This "war" is tantamount to us lopping off most of British Columbia and calling it our own, and rolling in our tanks to kill a bunch of Canadians in the process because BC used to be a part of the Oregon territory once upon a time. All of it completely unprovoked. Yeah, I would have something to say about that! Were something that nuts to happen I would very much expect our troops to NOT carry out the orders to invade Canada. I was for war after 9/11, and live to regret it. But, we were justified at the time, as misguided as we were. This has no justification, whatsoever. Big difference IMO. I understand your point. But you supported the war in Iraq, even though the government lied to you. You believed their lies. And we are a free country. You were a victim of the propaganda or at least the government’s agenda. But don’t feel bad because Senators and Representatives were too. And this is America. How much harder then for the Russian people who have less freedom than we have? So imagine being told how the Canadians are crucifying the children of Americans. Making a mockery of us. Seeing professors or important people deliver talks on this (though without evidence, of course). Imagine being fed information about how the government of BC is filled with Nazis who hate us and hate peace. Propaganda is a powerful tool. They can’t convince everyone, but they’ll get a lot. Repeat lies enough and people will believe them. |
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Post by beavheart on Feb 27, 2022 21:15:52 GMT -8
This "war" is tantamount to us lopping off most of British Columbia and calling it our own, and rolling in our tanks to kill a bunch of Canadians in the process because BC used to be a part of the Oregon territory once upon a time. All of it completely unprovoked. Yeah, I would have something to say about that! Were something that nuts to happen I would very much expect our troops to NOT carry out the orders to invade Canada. I was for war after 9/11, and live to regret it. But, we were justified at the time, as misguided as we were. This has no justification, whatsoever. Big difference IMO. I was for the War in Afghanistan, because it was necessary to destroy Al Qaeda leadership there there. But I can't believe that we let it continue into a second decade without an exit strategy. The fact that it was allowed to almost drift into a third decade is a real failure of leadership. I was never for the War in Iraq. That always seemed stupid, and, looking back 19 years in the future, it seems dumber still. I agree that this is different. But I believe that Putin is already equating it to the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, which also seemed stupid at the time, and, looking back 23 years in the future, it seems dumber still. What was the United States' justification for getting involved in Yugoslavia? Or Iraq? Or Libya? I agree 100% that there is a huge difference between the Invasion of Afghanistan and the Invasion Ukraine. Also, British Columbia was a part of "Oregon Country," prior to 1846. I do not believe that Oregon Territory ever included any part of British Columbia.Ok, I'll admit I'm pretty sure that wasn't historically correct and I was just riffing there. Oregon territory included Oregon, Washington, and most of Idaho I believe, correct? How about this? We'll just go ahead and lay claim to the entire area historically known as Cascadia. Including all of Oregon, Washington, Idaho, BC, and Alaska. Because, you know, western expansionism. Thank you very much. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 27, 2022 21:22:13 GMT -8
Churchill was sort of a weird cat. He was a Conservative who became a Liberal. When he determined that the Liberals had grown too Socialist, he became a Centrist Conservative.
Anyway:
"One may dislike Hitler’s system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations."--Winston Churchill (September 17, 1937).
That was after Germany enacted the Nuremburg Laws, started to rebuild its navy and remilitarized the Rhineland.
Finally, IMO, Putin is a boot-licking scumbag. But comparing Hitler to Putin is a gross insult to Putin.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 27, 2022 21:38:46 GMT -8
I was for the War in Afghanistan, because it was necessary to destroy Al Qaeda leadership there there. But I can't believe that we let it continue into a second decade without an exit strategy. The fact that it was allowed to almost drift into a third decade is a real failure of leadership. I was never for the War in Iraq. That always seemed stupid, and, looking back 19 years in the future, it seems dumber still. I agree that this is different. But I believe that Putin is already equating it to the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, which also seemed stupid at the time, and, looking back 23 years in the future, it seems dumber still. What was the United States' justification for getting involved in Yugoslavia? Or Iraq? Or Libya? I agree 100% that there is a huge difference between the Invasion of Afghanistan and the Invasion Ukraine. Also, British Columbia was a part of "Oregon Country," prior to 1846. I do not believe that Oregon Territory ever included any part of British Columbia.Ok, I'll admit I'm pretty sure that wasn't historically correct and I was just riffing there. Oregon territory included Oregon, Washington, and most of Idaho I believe, correct? How about this? We'll just go ahead and lay claim to the entire area historically known as Cascadia. Including all of Oregon, Washington, Idaho, BC, and Alaska. Because, you know, western expansionism. Thank you very much. I did not realize you were going all Bluto Blutarsky on us. I am sorry. I should have just let you roll. Oregon Territory originally included all of Idaho, Oregon and Washington. It also included portions of Montana and Wyoming. In 1853, Oregon and Washington Territory were split with the 46th parallel serving as the eastern border all the way into present-day Montana. The State of Oregon was proposed by Congress on February 14, 1859, with Oregon's current borders. No one in Oregon knew for more than a month. And the State of Oregon did actually accept the United States' invitation to become the 33rd State with the current borders until June 3, 1859. |
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Post by beavheart on Feb 27, 2022 21:41:41 GMT -8
This "war" is tantamount to us lopping off most of British Columbia and calling it our own, and rolling in our tanks to kill a bunch of Canadians in the process because BC used to be a part of the Oregon territory once upon a time. All of it completely unprovoked. Yeah, I would have something to say about that! Were something that nuts to happen I would very much expect our troops to NOT carry out the orders to invade Canada. I was for war after 9/11, and live to regret it. But, we were justified at the time, as misguided as we were. This has no justification, whatsoever. Big difference IMO. I understand your point. But you supported the war in Iraq, even though the government lied to you. You believed their lies. And we are a free country. You were a victim of the propaganda or at least the government’s agenda. But don’t feel bad because Senators and Representatives were too. And this is America. How much harder then for the Russian people who have less freedom than we have? So imagine being told how the Canadians are crucifying the children of Americans. Making a mockery of us. Seeing professors or important people deliver talks on this (though without evidence, of course). Imagine being fed information about how the government of BC is filled with Nazis who hate us and hate peace. Propaganda is a powerful tool. They can’t convince everyone, but they’ll get a lot. Repeat lies enough and people will believe them. Ok, that's all understandable. We have plenty of problems with misinformation here in the US. We can only imagine what it might be like to live under a cloud of misinformation. Does that excuse this? Or to what extent? Are most Russians simply accomplices? Keep in mind, this is 2020 and even Russians have access to social media. Still, I get it. We see what we want to see, and it's frightening how easily an entire population can be swayed. Given all that, can I safely assume that we agree that Putin just needs to go? |
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Post by beavheart on Feb 27, 2022 21:49:59 GMT -8
Ok, I'll admit I'm pretty sure that wasn't historically correct and I was just riffing there. Oregon territory included Oregon, Washington, and most of Idaho I believe, correct? How about this? We'll just go ahead and lay claim to the entire area historically known as Cascadia. Including all of Oregon, Washington, Idaho, BC, and Alaska. Because, you know, western expansionism. Thank you very much. I did not realize you were going all Bluto Blutarsky on us. I am sorry. I should have just let you roll. Oregon Territory originally included all of Idaho, Oregon and Washington. It also included portions of Montana and Wyoming. In 1853, Oregon and Washington Territory were split with the 46th parallel serving as the eastern border all the way into present-day Montana. The State of Oregon was proposed by Congress on February 14, 1859, with Oregon's current borders. No one in Oregon knew for more than a month. And the State of Oregon did actually accept the United States' invitation to become the 33rd State with the current borders until June 3, 1859. But of course. Even when I try, I'm still wrong. |
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Post by irimi on Feb 28, 2022 6:54:02 GMT -8
I understand your point. But you supported the war in Iraq, even though the government lied to you. You believed their lies. And we are a free country. You were a victim of the propaganda or at least the government’s agenda. But don’t feel bad because Senators and Representatives were too. And this is America. How much harder then for the Russian people who have less freedom than we have? So imagine being told how the Canadians are crucifying the children of Americans. Making a mockery of us. Seeing professors or important people deliver talks on this (though without evidence, of course). Imagine being fed information about how the government of BC is filled with Nazis who hate us and hate peace. Propaganda is a powerful tool. They can’t convince everyone, but they’ll get a lot. Repeat lies enough and people will believe them. Ok, that's all understandable. We have plenty of problems with misinformation here in the US. We can only imagine what it might be like to live under a cloud of misinformation. Does that excuse this? Or to what extent? Are most Russians simply accomplices? Keep in mind, this is 2020 and even Russians have access to social media. Still, I get it. We see what we want to see, and it's frightening how easily an entire population can be swayed. Given all that, can I safely assume that we agree that Putin just needs to go? Oh, I think we agree on more than that. But definitely, Putin is a bastard who needs to be removed. Perhaps this will be his downfall. We shall see. I also agree that this war is unjust. And Russia, the country, needs to be held accountable. My heart is with the Ukrainian people and their stout resistance. |
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