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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Aug 12, 2021 21:31:19 GMT -8
May I ask? WHAT would a religious reason be for NOT taking a vaccine? Not cultural or political. Religious. I appreciate anyone answering, and it begs the question I posed earlier; (paraphrased) did they have the SAME objections to the aforementioned vaccines? Thank you The bishops of the Catholic church raise concerns about how the vaccines are made or tested (using cells from aborted fetuses). I don’t know the validity of this concern, but seeing how some Catholics are single issue voters, you can see how they might object to the Covid vaccine. Especially since the bishops have said that it’s reasonable to refrain from getting the vaccine. On a side note, in a certain Catholic community last fall before the vaccine was out, I heard them say that the mRNA vaccines change your DNA so that God wouldn’t recognize you anymore. 😂 Made me laugh at the thought of an omnipotent supreme being being confused by a vaccine. First Paragraph: Both the AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson vaccines were created by using fetal tissue to create the adenovirus vector (which is what the active portion of the vaccine essentially is). The fetal tissue is supposed to be filtered out after that, and you are supposed to be injected with the adenovirus vector sans fetal tissue. I am no scientist, so I have no idea how successful that filtration process is. At the very least, though, the AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson vaccines result in the intentional infection and destruction of fetal tissue, in order to create the adenovirus vector. And that is how you get zombies. *Beat* Or why you might be religiously-opposed to those two specific vaccines. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are not manufactured in this manner, so the same set of religious objections would not apply. Second Paragraph: mRNA vaccines cannot change your DNA. This differs from the actual virus, which reproduces by actually altering your DNA. Even if mRNA vaccines could change your DNA, it would only apply to infected cells. In any instance, unless you are assumed or resurrected, whether your DNA is altered or not would be irrelevant, because only your soul would survive into the afterlife. At least, that is how I understand Catholic teaching on the afterlife.
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Post by irimi on Aug 13, 2021 6:24:59 GMT -8
A fair accusation. I was in a cynical mood when I wrote that. The simple answer is that I seriously and severely doubt that any religion has it right. The longer answer is that my opinion is that if there is such a thing as (a) god(s), and I tend to think there is (although atheism is equally possible), the fundamental nature of such entities would likely include an intelligence so beyond ours (humans) that it is impossible for us (humans) to fully comprehend such (an) entity (entities) and religion must therefore be flawed, at least in its practice. To go the entire TMI route, I think of myself as 90% agnostic and 10% Catholic, the religion upon which I was raised. So when I consider the idea of reaching out to a deity, which I sometimes do, I usually think of it in Catholic terms. But I am as skeptical of that religion as any other. I really don't know the answer. No religion is perfect, nor can it be, because humans are involved (and they generally f*#k up everything). However, as I view religion, some religions are stairs and others are escalators. To be areligious simply because no religion is perfect is to eschew both the escalator and the stairs and expire on the ground floor because no one has invented a working teleporter. Pastafarianism. FSM has bigger balls than the other gods. Lol I have found that people without organized religion can be quite spiritual and reach beyond this earthly world. I have seen the same with Christians, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, and who knows what else. But too often I’ve seen many, many religious people use their religion as a weapon, as a way to separate and divide, even within their own religious community. The rules give them a sense of validation and a sense of the absolute in a world full of chaos. These people are the bread and butter of religions everywhere, and for them, their religion is a soapbox to stand on and yell at the world for not following their rules.
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Post by irimi on Aug 13, 2021 6:32:19 GMT -8
The bishops of the Catholic church raise concerns about how the vaccines are made or tested (using cells from aborted fetuses). I don’t know the validity of this concern, but seeing how some Catholics are single issue voters, you can see how they might object to the Covid vaccine. Especially since the bishops have said that it’s reasonable to refrain from getting the vaccine. On a side note, in a certain Catholic community last fall before the vaccine was out, I heard them say that the mRNA vaccines change your DNA so that God wouldn’t recognize you anymore. 😂 Made me laugh at the thought of an omnipotent supreme being being confused by a vaccine. First Paragraph: Both the AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson vaccines were created by using fetal tissue to create the adenovirus vector (which is what the active portion of the vaccine essentially is). The fetal tissue is supposed to be filtered out after that, and you are supposed to be injected with the adenovirus vector sans fetal tissue. I am no scientist, so I have no idea how successful that filtration process is. At the very least, though, the AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson vaccines result in the intentional infection and destruction of fetal tissue, in order to create the adenovirus vector. And that is how you get zombies. *Beat* Or why you might be religiously-opposed to those two specific vaccines. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are not manufactured in this manner, so the same set of religious objections would not apply. Second Paragraph: mRNA vaccines cannot change your DNA. This differs from the actual virus, which reproduces by actually altering your DNA. Even if mRNA vaccines could change your DNA, it would only apply to infected cells. In any instance, unless you are assumed or resurrected, whether your DNA is altered or not would be irrelevant, because only your soul would survive into the afterlife. At least, that is how I understand Catholic teaching on the afterlife. I know the virus doesn’t alter DNA, and even if it did, I’m 99% sure thateven my dog would still recognize me. So does that mean my dog is smarter than God? 😂 Remember that Catholics believe in the “resurrection of the body,” which is why the Church stood against transplants and cremation. Cremation these days is allowed only if all of the ashes are kept together. But I’m not so sure Iwant to spend eternity in this particular body, even if it is glorified. Lol
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Post by seastape on Aug 13, 2021 8:40:10 GMT -8
A fair accusation. I was in a cynical mood when I wrote that. The simple answer is that I seriously and severely doubt that any religion has it right. The longer answer is that my opinion is that if there is such a thing as (a) god(s), and I tend to think there is (although atheism is equally possible), the fundamental nature of such entities would likely include an intelligence so beyond ours (humans) that it is impossible for us (humans) to fully comprehend such (an) entity (entities) and religion must therefore be flawed, at least in its practice. To go the entire TMI route, I think of myself as 90% agnostic and 10% Catholic, the religion upon which I was raised. So when I consider the idea of reaching out to a deity, which I sometimes do, I usually think of it in Catholic terms. But I am as skeptical of that religion as any other. I really don't know the answer. No religion is perfect, nor can it be, because humans are involved (and they generally f*#k up everything). However, as I view religion, some religions are stairs and others are escalators. To be areligious simply because no religion is perfect is to eschew both the escalator and the stairs and expire on the ground floor because no one has invented a working teleporter. I'm not areligious because there is no perfect religion. I am areligious because I think every religion that I have looked into was made up by humans. My second paragraph describes what I think is the best case scenario for religions. However, I also admit that I could be wrong. I'm sure you've heard the expression, "Reasonable people can disagree."
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Aug 13, 2021 14:01:14 GMT -8
First Paragraph: Both the AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson vaccines were created by using fetal tissue to create the adenovirus vector (which is what the active portion of the vaccine essentially is). The fetal tissue is supposed to be filtered out after that, and you are supposed to be injected with the adenovirus vector sans fetal tissue. I am no scientist, so I have no idea how successful that filtration process is. At the very least, though, the AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson vaccines result in the intentional infection and destruction of fetal tissue, in order to create the adenovirus vector. And that is how you get zombies. *Beat* Or why you might be religiously-opposed to those two specific vaccines. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are not manufactured in this manner, so the same set of religious objections would not apply. Second Paragraph: mRNA vaccines cannot change your DNA. This differs from the actual virus, which reproduces by actually altering your DNA. Even if mRNA vaccines could change your DNA, it would only apply to infected cells. In any instance, unless you are assumed or resurrected, whether your DNA is altered or not would be irrelevant, because only your soul would survive into the afterlife. At least, that is how I understand Catholic teaching on the afterlife. I know the virus doesn’t alter DNA, and even if it did, I’m 99% sure thateven my dog would still recognize me. So does that mean my dog is smarter than God? 😂 Remember that Catholics believe in the “resurrection of the body,” which is why the Church stood against transplants and cremation. Cremation these days is allowed only if all of the ashes are kept together. But I’m not so sure Iwant to spend eternity in this particular body, even if it is glorified. Lol A body that is burned cannot be resurrected until Judgment Day. It is probably unknowable, but I wonder how much of that is based on actual spiritual thought and how much is derived from Catholics trying to differentiate themselves from the Romans, who referred to cremation as Romanus mos ("the Roman Way"). I am not sure I remember Catholic opposition to transplants. I know that the Catholic Church has been pro-transplants throughout the entirety of my lifetime.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Aug 13, 2021 14:13:38 GMT -8
No religion is perfect, nor can it be, because humans are involved (and they generally f*#k up everything). However, as I view religion, some religions are stairs and others are escalators. To be areligious simply because no religion is perfect is to eschew both the escalator and the stairs and expire on the ground floor because no one has invented a working teleporter. Pastafarianism. FSM has bigger balls than the other gods. Lol I have found that people without organized religion can be quite spiritual and reach beyond this earthly world. I have seen the same with Christians, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, and who knows what else. But too often I’ve seen many, many religious people use their religion as a weapon, as a way to separate and divide, even within their own religious community. The rules give them a sense of validation and a sense of the absolute in a world full of chaos. These people are the bread and butter of religions everywhere, and for them, their religion is a soapbox to stand on and yell at the world for not following their rules. I agree with everything that you said, but I would posit that agnostics and atheists often seem to turn their belief system into a religion in and of itself and do likewise. Just because those people are the loudest voices does not make them the most numerous. Most people know that the loudest voices are trying to compensate, because they are the ones with the least power. The rules or lack thereof make no one good and make no one bad in and of themselves. Every organization, be it religious or not, will always have the one person, who will yell at everyone else for not following the rules. There are both religious and areligious soapboxes out there.
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Post by irimi on Aug 13, 2021 14:15:32 GMT -8
I know the virus doesn’t alter DNA, and even if it did, I’m 99% sure thateven my dog would still recognize me. So does that mean my dog is smarter than God? 😂 Remember that Catholics believe in the “resurrection of the body,” which is why the Church stood against transplants and cremation. Cremation these days is allowed only if all of the ashes are kept together. But I’m not so sure Iwant to spend eternity in this particular body, even if it is glorified. Lol A body that is burned cannot be resurrected until Judgment Day. It is probably unknowable, but I wonder how much of that is based on actual spiritual thought and how much is derived from Catholics trying to differentiate themselves from the Romans, who referred to cremation as Romanus mos ("the Roman Way"). I am not sure I remember Catholic opposition to transplants. I know that the Catholic Church has been pro-transplants throughout the entirety of my lifetime. Dammit, I have to stop listening to Catholics and do my own research. Lol. Easy to do now, so I will do that. Suffice to say that when you start making up rules about life, death and the afterlife, Time is going to make a fool of you, so soon enough you gotta add new rules and interpretations. Pretty soon, you’ve got a mess. Look at marriage and divorce. Lol. Or if it hurts too much to look at your religion, look at the Romans or the Greeks and laugh at their funky rules.
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Post by irimi on Aug 13, 2021 17:20:54 GMT -8
Pastafarianism. FSM has bigger balls than the other gods. Lol I have found that people without organized religion can be quite spiritual and reach beyond this earthly world. I have seen the same with Christians, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, and who knows what else. But too often I’ve seen many, many religious people use their religion as a weapon, as a way to separate and divide, even within their own religious community. The rules give them a sense of validation and a sense of the absolute in a world full of chaos. These people are the bread and butter of religions everywhere, and for them, their religion is a soapbox to stand on and yell at the world for not following their rules. I agree with everything that you said, but I would posit that agnostics and atheists often seem to turn their belief system into a religion in and of itself and do likewise. Just because those people are the loudest voices does not make them the most numerous. Most people know that the loudest voices are trying to compensate, because they are the ones with the least power. The rules or lack thereof make no one good and make no one bad in and of themselves. Every organization, be it religious or not, will always have the one person, who will yell at everyone else for not following the rules. There are both religious and areligious soapboxes out there. Really? How can you turn a belief of nothing into a religion?
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Aug 16, 2021 14:15:26 GMT -8
I agree with everything that you said, but I would posit that agnostics and atheists often seem to turn their belief system into a religion in and of itself and do likewise. Just because those people are the loudest voices does not make them the most numerous. Most people know that the loudest voices are trying to compensate, because they are the ones with the least power. The rules or lack thereof make no one good and make no one bad in and of themselves. Every organization, be it religious or not, will always have the one person, who will yell at everyone else for not following the rules. There are both religious and areligious soapboxes out there. Really? How can you turn a belief of nothing into a religion? Atheism is the belief that there is no God or gods. That is a belief system. And atheists often try to proselytize and convert others to that belief.
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Post by irimi on Aug 16, 2021 16:35:55 GMT -8
Really? How can you turn a belief of nothing into a religion? Atheism is the belief that there is no God or gods. That is a belief system. And atheists often try to proselytize and convert others to that belief. I think you and I are using terms in different ways. A belief, as defined by Webster, is "an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists." I emphasize that last part because religion, notably, has a belief in a deity. Atheism does not hold that belief. This is how I have been using the term "belief." Now you might want to argue that atheists accept a certain statement, namely that there is no deity, and therefore call it a belief. But I disagree. I wouldn't say that the adult population of the world has a belief that there is no Santa Claus, while the young tikes hold that belief. It doesn't work like that. A belief in nothing requires no faith, no evidence, no outlandish gimmicks. Now, the term "belief system" can be more problematic. Commonly, a "belief system" is directly connected to religions and their sets of beliefs, such as eating meat, virgin mothers, and burning bushes. But a "belief system" can also be used in a more generic manner to indicate the code that a person chooses to live her life by. The chivalry of old, then, is a belief system as was the Budo of the samurai. Your views on the world or your home country are part of your belief system. To say that a non-belief is a belief system only makes sense is the larger sense of the term for certainly a lack of belief cannot be a religion with a set of beliefs that distinguishes it from other religions. As for proselytizing, I've never been approached by an atheist. But I have been approached by many different kinds of Christians. Why? Well, what does the atheist have to gain by your "conversion"? Now, the Christian believes that his belief system will reward him greatly if he can save that one person.
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Post by Werebeaver on Aug 16, 2021 17:33:46 GMT -8
Really? How can you turn a belief of nothing into a religion? Atheism is the belief that there is no God or gods. That is a belief system. And atheists often try to proselytize and convert others to that belief. If I decline to believe that Santa Claus exists, is that a “belief system“? I suppose someone who passionately believes in Santa Claus would see it exactly that way.
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Post by beavs6 on Aug 16, 2021 17:42:24 GMT -8
Atheism is the belief that there is no God or gods. That is a belief system. And atheists often try to proselytize and convert others to that belief. I think you and I are using terms in different ways. A belief, as defined by Webster, is "an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists." I emphasize that last part because religion, notably, has a belief in a deity. Atheism does not hold that belief. This is how I have been using the term "belief." Now you might want to argue that atheists accept a certain statement, namely that there is no deity, and therefore call it a belief. But I disagree. I wouldn't say that the adult population of the world has a belief that there is no Santa Claus, while the young tikes hold that belief. It doesn't work like that. A belief in nothing requires no faith, no evidence, no outlandish gimmicks. Now, the term "belief system" can be more problematic. Commonly, a "belief system" is directly connected to religions and their sets of beliefs, such as eating meat, virgin mothers, and burning bushes. But a "belief system" can also be used in a more generic manner to indicate the code that a person chooses to live her life by. The chivalry of old, then, is a belief system as was the Budo of the samurai. Your views on the world or your home country are part of your belief system. To say that a non-belief is a belief system only makes sense is the larger sense of the term for certainly a lack of belief cannot be a religion with a set of beliefs that distinguishes it from other religions. As for proselytizing, I've never been approached by an atheist. But I have been approached by many different kinds of Christians. Why? Well, what does the atheist have to gain by your "conversion"? Now, the Christian believes that his belief system will reward him greatly if he can save that one person.
(I guess I can't help myself.) Please explain this.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Aug 16, 2021 21:41:33 GMT -8
Atheism is the belief that there is no God or gods. That is a belief system. And atheists often try to proselytize and convert others to that belief. I think you and I are using terms in different ways. A belief, as defined by Webster, is "an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists." I emphasize that last part because religion, notably, has a belief in a deity. Atheism does not hold that belief. This is how I have been using the term "belief." Now you might want to argue that atheists accept a certain statement, namely that there is no deity, and therefore call it a belief. But I disagree. I wouldn't say that the adult population of the world has a belief that there is no Santa Claus, while the young tikes hold that belief. It doesn't work like that. A belief in nothing requires no faith, no evidence, no outlandish gimmicks. Now, the term "belief system" can be more problematic. Commonly, a "belief system" is directly connected to religions and their sets of beliefs, such as eating meat, virgin mothers, and burning bushes. But a "belief system" can also be used in a more generic manner to indicate the code that a person chooses to live her life by. The chivalry of old, then, is a belief system as was the Budo of the samurai. Your views on the world or your home country are part of your belief system. To say that a non-belief is a belief system only makes sense is the larger sense of the term for certainly a lack of belief cannot be a religion with a set of beliefs that distinguishes it from other religions. As for proselytizing, I've never been approached by an atheist. But I have been approached by many different kinds of Christians. Why? Well, what does the atheist have to gain by your "conversion"? Now, the Christian believes that his belief system will reward him greatly if he can save that one person. Atheism is a religious belief system that can neither be proven nor disproven and is thus based upon faith in much the same way that every other religion is a religious belief system that can neither be proven nor disproven and is thus based upon faith. If your beliefs are based on anything other than evidence and outlandish gimmicks, it must be based on faith. That is where your Santa Claus correlation falls apart, because you must ignore evidence and instead rely on outlandish gimmicks. As for proselytizing, I have never been approached by a Catholic, because I am one. I have gotten preached to by other faiths and atheists. Why would a proselytizing atheist preach to the choir? Although, I would hazard to guess that once upon a time, an atheist proselytized you. The benefit to the atheist is usually to refocus an individual upon this life in the (I would say misguided) belief that you are thereby making the world a better place. Before I tumble too far down an esoteric rabbit hole, though, the Second and Seventh Circuit Courts of Appeals have found that atheism is a "religion." I will leave it to you as to whether the various Courts of Appeal determining that atheism is "true" philosophically. But given the case law, I would say that an esoteric discussion about whether atheism is a religion or not is pretty moot.
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Post by irimi on Aug 17, 2021 7:05:24 GMT -8
I think you and I are using terms in different ways. A belief, as defined by Webster, is "an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists." I emphasize that last part because religion, notably, has a belief in a deity. Atheism does not hold that belief. This is how I have been using the term "belief." Now you might want to argue that atheists accept a certain statement, namely that there is no deity, and therefore call it a belief. But I disagree. I wouldn't say that the adult population of the world has a belief that there is no Santa Claus, while the young tikes hold that belief. It doesn't work like that. A belief in nothing requires no faith, no evidence, no outlandish gimmicks. Now, the term "belief system" can be more problematic. Commonly, a "belief system" is directly connected to religions and their sets of beliefs, such as eating meat, virgin mothers, and burning bushes. But a "belief system" can also be used in a more generic manner to indicate the code that a person chooses to live her life by. The chivalry of old, then, is a belief system as was the Budo of the samurai. Your views on the world or your home country are part of your belief system. To say that a non-belief is a belief system only makes sense is the larger sense of the term for certainly a lack of belief cannot be a religion with a set of beliefs that distinguishes it from other religions. As for proselytizing, I've never been approached by an atheist. But I have been approached by many different kinds of Christians. Why? Well, what does the atheist have to gain by your "conversion"? Now, the Christian believes that his belief system will reward him greatly if he can save that one person. Atheism is a religious belief system that can neither be proven nor disproven and is thus based upon faith in much the same way that every other religion is a religious belief system that can neither be proven nor disproven and is thus based upon faith. If your beliefs are based on anything other than evidence and outlandish gimmicks, it must be based on faith. That is where your Santa Claus correlation falls apart, because you must ignore evidence and instead rely on outlandish gimmicks. As for proselytizing, I have never been approached by a Catholic, because I am one. I have gotten preached to by other faiths and atheists. Why would a proselytizing atheist preach to the choir? Although, I would hazard to guess that once upon a time, an atheist proselytized you. The benefit to the atheist is usually to refocus an individual upon this life in the (I would say misguided) belief that you are thereby making the world a better place. Before I tumble too far down an esoteric rabbit hole, though, the Second and Seventh Circuit Courts of Appeals have found that atheism is a "religion." I will leave it to you as to whether the various Courts of Appeal determining that atheism is "true" philosophically. But given the case law, I would say that an esoteric discussion about whether atheism is a religion or not is pretty moot. Rely on gimmicks? Ignore evidence? Are you sure you’re talking about belief in Santa, not some dude whose body you eat at church on Sundays? Had a priest tell me all about this sacred host that bleeds, all the while looking like a child talking about Santa and naming his reindeer. It’s the same sort of belief, though with different intentions. Question: if a person were to avoid religion her whole life, would she be an atheist in your view, or must one profess themselves to be an atheist to actually be an atheist? As for me being an atheist, you are wrong. I am not an atheist. I dislike how Christians (including Catholics) think that this is a Christian nation. I dislike how much organized religion there is in politics. I can’t stand the hypocrisy that seems part and parcel with organized religion. But I am not atheist.
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Post by Werebeaver on Aug 17, 2021 8:01:52 GMT -8
I think you and I are using terms in different ways. A belief, as defined by Webster, is "an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists." I emphasize that last part because religion, notably, has a belief in a deity. Atheism does not hold that belief. This is how I have been using the term "belief." Now you might want to argue that atheists accept a certain statement, namely that there is no deity, and therefore call it a belief. But I disagree. I wouldn't say that the adult population of the world has a belief that there is no Santa Claus, while the young tikes hold that belief. It doesn't work like that. A belief in nothing requires no faith, no evidence, no outlandish gimmicks. Now, the term "belief system" can be more problematic. Commonly, a "belief system" is directly connected to religions and their sets of beliefs, such as eating meat, virgin mothers, and burning bushes. But a "belief system" can also be used in a more generic manner to indicate the code that a person chooses to live her life by. The chivalry of old, then, is a belief system as was the Budo of the samurai. Your views on the world or your home country are part of your belief system. To say that a non-belief is a belief system only makes sense is the larger sense of the term for certainly a lack of belief cannot be a religion with a set of beliefs that distinguishes it from other religions. As for proselytizing, I've never been approached by an atheist. But I have been approached by many different kinds of Christians. Why? Well, what does the atheist have to gain by your "conversion"? Now, the Christian believes that his belief system will reward him greatly if he can save that one person. Atheism is a religious belief system that can neither be proven nor disproven and is thus based upon faith in much the same way that every other religion is a religious belief system that can neither be proven nor disproven and is thus based upon faith. If your beliefs are based on anything other than evidence and outlandish gimmicks, it must be based on faith. That is where your Santa Claus correlation falls apart, because you must ignore evidence and instead rely on outlandish gimmicks. As for proselytizing, I have never been approached by a Catholic, because I am one. I have gotten preached to by other faiths and atheists. Why would a proselytizing atheist preach to the choir? Although, I would hazard to guess that once upon a time, an atheist proselytized you. The benefit to the atheist is usually to refocus an individual upon this life in the (I would say misguided) belief that you are thereby making the world a better place. Before I tumble too far down an esoteric rabbit hole, though, the Second and Seventh Circuit Courts of Appeals have found that atheism is a "religion." I will leave it to you as to whether the various Courts of Appeal determining that atheism is "true" philosophically. But given the case law, I would say that an esoteric discussion about whether atheism is a religion or not is pretty moot. You can't definitively "prove" that Santa Claus doesn't exist. Go ahead and try. If that makes disbelief in Santa Claus a "religion" or a "belief system" in your eyes then I'll take that for what it's worth.
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