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Post by irimi on Aug 16, 2021 6:20:15 GMT -8
"Move on" is right! Guardians is the new name. Move on. But seriously, what is wrong with kneeling for the anthem? I've heard folks complain that it is disrespectful to the troops. That is hilarious! The flag belongs to the troops? No, it represents you and me because we are all America, not just the troops. Those Olympic athletes who got their medals were draped in the flag. They aren't troops. Every school has a flag. They aren't troops. I think you're very confused about America. We've never really been united, except when faced with the terrible need such as after Pearl Harbor was bombed or on Sept. 11th. Otherwise, we are communities of people who are all fighting to get respect and a better way of life. We've been divided by race, by religion, by ethnicity, by wealth, by sports teams. If you think we haven't been divided, then you're a member of the "right" race, religion, and ethnicity who has at least a moderate income. Take a closer look around you. I agree with paragraphs 1. I haven spoken to active duty military and to special forces in Afghanistan about kneeling during the anthem. And both said that it was wildly offensive and disrespectful. And nothing about that is hilarious. Kneeling outside of the anthem, like what the USWNT did at the Olympics, that is a more proper time to kneel. This whole thing only works, if our active duty military are adequately supported. If people disrespect the anthem and flag and it destroys the morale of active duty military, this whole thing collapses upon itself and an Old World vacuum will be created that will have to be filled by someone. I don't understand your last two sentences. I would hazard to guess that we disagree. Why should anyone care what two members of the military say about a national symbol? Because they have been trained to kill, they are experts on civics? And nice job finding unbiased sources! 👍 By the way since you are struggling to come up with the correct answer, simply go back to your elementary school days and recite the pledge of allegiance. You’ll find the answer in those words. And you won’t find the word “military” at all.
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Post by TheGlove on Aug 16, 2021 8:43:19 GMT -8
Remind me . . . . Didn't Kapernick get the idea to kneel from a special forces guy? I'm too lazy to look it up. I still do not understand why the protests have to occur during the Anthem. That still makes no sense to me. Military members usually entirely comprise the flag guard, so kneeling is quite obviously a protest against the present military. I think this is a YOU thing. Others can see the symbolism.
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Post by ochobeavo on Aug 16, 2021 8:56:58 GMT -8
"Move on" is right! Guardians is the new name. Move on. But seriously, what is wrong with kneeling for the anthem? I've heard folks complain that it is disrespectful to the troops. That is hilarious! The flag belongs to the troops? No, it represents you and me because we are all America, not just the troops. Those Olympic athletes who got their medals were draped in the flag. They aren't troops. Every school has a flag. They aren't troops. I think you're very confused about America. We've never really been united, except when faced with the terrible need such as after Pearl Harbor was bombed or on Sept. 11th. Otherwise, we are communities of people who are all fighting to get respect and a better way of life. We've been divided by race, by religion, by ethnicity, by wealth, by sports teams. If you think we haven't been divided, then you're a member of the "right" race, religion, and ethnicity who has at least a moderate income. Take a closer look around you. I haven spoken to active duty military and to special forces in Afghanistan about kneeling during the anthem. And both said that it was wildly offensive and disrespectful. And nothing about that is hilarious. and i happen to share a whole lot of DNA with 2 retired members of the military and both said they fought for those rights and freedoms for individuals to peacefully protest during the anthem and voice dissenting opinions. Now I'm starting to wonder if your two data points don't speak for everyone?
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Post by Werebeaver on Aug 16, 2021 9:20:17 GMT -8
I haven spoken to active duty military and to special forces in Afghanistan about kneeling during the anthem. And both said that it was wildly offensive and disrespectful. And nothing about that is hilarious. and i happen to share a whole lot of DNA with 2 retired members of the military and both said they fought for those rights and freedoms for individuals to peacefully protest during the anthem and voice dissenting opinions. Now I'm starting to wonder if your two data points don't speak for everyone? While I personally appreciate seeing the flag and standing for the national anthem before sports gatherings, it’s always puzzled me why we need to publicly profess our patriotism before we watch a sports contest (and not before other public gatherings like movies, plays, rock concerts, etc). And why that expression is so strictly and narrowly defined. From what I’ve read we only started doing it during WWI but discontinued it after the armistice. We picked it up again following the Pearl Harbor attacks and have been doing it ever since.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Aug 16, 2021 9:36:48 GMT -8
I haven spoken to active duty military and to special forces in Afghanistan about kneeling during the anthem. And both said that it was wildly offensive and disrespectful. And nothing about that is hilarious. and i happen to share a whole lot of DNA with 2 retired members of the military and both said they fought for those rights and freedoms for individuals to peacefully protest during the anthem and voice dissenting opinions. Now I'm starting to wonder if your two data points don't speak for everyone? Agreed. I've never bought into the narrative that those in the military have a corner on patriotism, that they are somehow "better" than others, or that their opinion should mean any more than anyone else's in this country. The flag represents all of us and those in the military take a vow to uphold the Constitution - which specifically protects, if not encourages, the rights of citizens to peacefully protest.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Aug 16, 2021 13:43:40 GMT -8
Yes, the Irish have only experienced a few decades of trouble. To quote you, "That is hilarious!" The point is several-fold and nuanced. One point, which seems completely lost upon you, is that the Irish were dumped upon for centuries, subjected to what easily falls into your defined term of "genocide" but generally get fingered as being at fault somehow and someway for what happened to Native Americans. I am half-Polish, which systematically had their country stolen out from under them over a period of 155 years. And had to endure the Kulturkampf. And had to put up with the Prime Minister of Germany making speeches about the "Polish Question." And had to put up with a German government that had written plans to ethnically cleanse 3 million Polish people during World War I. And then the Polish people were the second-largest group of people killed during the Holocaust. And the Polish immigrants, who were able to get out came to a country populated by a bunch of people who are largely German, who used a bunch of wildly-offensive terms and jokes, which are somehow still ok to tell. And what happened to the Native Americans is all of the fault of the Polish-Americans as well for some reason that can neither be defined nor explained. You are citing the 1890 census numbers. In 1890, Native Americans living off of reservations were only counted as Native American, if they were 100% Native American. As of the 2010 Census, there are 5,220,579 Native Americans in the United States of America. And that is probably low, because there are a lot of people, who have Native American DNA, who do not know it. The rest of it is a lot of guesswork, which often contradicts one another. I have seen some estimates that there were only 8 million Native Americans in all of the Americas in 1491. 18 million seems very high. 10 million is probably a maximum for all lands North of what is today Mexico organized into about 600 tribes. In any instance, by 1650, there were only about 6 million Native Americans in all of the Americas. The introduction of smallpox, typhus, measles, influenza, bubonic plague, mumps, and whooping cough decimated the Native American population. 1,000 tribes completely wiped out? There are 574 Federally-recognized tribes in the United States of America and there are an additional 200+ tribes (estimated to be about 245), which are not Federally-recognized. There may, in fact, now be more tribes and more Native Americans living in the United States than there were back in 1491. As for other tribes, the Celts/Gauls had colonized most of Europe, including England beginning with the middle to late third millennium BC. And that had all been accomplished by about 275 BC. And the Celts/Gauls were almost completely wiped out by 117 AD, almost exclusively limited to Ireland and Scotland. The City of Carthage was founded in 814 BC and built an empire in the Western Mediterranean and expanded for approximately 600 years before being completely wiped off the map in 146 BC, the remnants being incorporated into the Roman Empire, which was taken over by the Vandals and then the Byzantines. The Carthaginian culture was able to exist in Northwestern Africa under the Vandals and Byzantines but was completely annihilated by Hassan Ibn al Numan, who forced all of the people of Carthage to Tunis, using Carthage primarily as a resource center. History is needlessly nuanced and messy. What makes the Native Americans different than what happened in Ireland or Carthage? Everyone gets their shot. The residents of the original Chicago, Fort Dearborn, were all killed and Fort Dearborn was burned to the ground in 1812 by Chief Blackbird and the Potawatomi. Some peoples and tribes are bound to succeed and others are bound to fail. The weird survivors' guilt expressed by some is very weird. History is history. We cannot change it and here because of it. Just point me to an event in US history that equals the horror, scale, utter disregard for human life as the Trail of Tears which the Irish or Italians endured and the government sponsored. Black 47. But that would exceed the horror, scale and utter disregard for human life.
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Post by Judge Smails on Aug 16, 2021 13:49:14 GMT -8
Just point me to an event in US history that equals the horror, scale, utter disregard for human life as the Trail of Tears which the Irish or Italians endured and the government sponsored. Black 47. But that would exceed the horror, scale and utter disregard for human life. That's small potatoes
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Post by TheGlove on Aug 16, 2021 14:27:05 GMT -8
Just point me to an event in US history that equals the horror, scale, utter disregard for human life as the Trail of Tears which the Irish or Italians endured and the government sponsored. Black 47. But that would exceed the horror, scale and utter disregard for human life. We're talking about US history and irmi clearly states that point. You reply with something that happened in Ireland.
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Post by TheGlove on Aug 16, 2021 14:28:05 GMT -8
Black 47. But that would exceed the horror, scale and utter disregard for human life. That's small potatoes
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Aug 16, 2021 15:05:00 GMT -8
Black 47. But that would exceed the horror, scale and utter disregard for human life. We're talking about US history and irmi clearly states that point. You reply with something that happened in Ireland. Black 47 is a part of the history of the United States of America. Just by way of example, Catherine Eugenia "Jean" Finnegan Biden is Joe Biden's Mom. Her dad is a first-generation-American born of two survivors of Black 47. Her mom's two parents were both first-generation-Americans born of four survivors of Black 47. Jean Biden and her ancestors are survivors of Black 47. They all came to the United States of America in coffin ships in the 1840s and early 1850s. The genocide (to use other's word) that was Black 47 was, is and will continue to be a huge part of the history of the United States of America. If you want something of a larger-scale again, though, you could go with the Civil War.
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Post by TheGlove on Aug 16, 2021 16:04:56 GMT -8
We're talking about US history and irmi clearly states that point. You reply with something that happened in Ireland. Black 47 is a part of the history of the United States of America. Just by way of example, Catherine Eugenia "Jean" Finnegan Biden is Joe Biden's Mom. Her dad is a first-generation-American born of two survivors of Black 47. Her mom's two parents were both first-generation-Americans born of four survivors of Black 47. Jean Biden and her ancestors are survivors of Black 47. They all came to the United States of America in coffin ships in the 1840s and early 1850s. The genocide (to use other's word) that was Black 47 was, is and will continue to be a huge part of the history of the United States of America. If you want something of a larger-scale again, though, you could go with the Civil War.
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Post by spudbeaver on Aug 16, 2021 19:21:29 GMT -8
Just point me to an event in US history that equals the horror, scale, utter disregard for human life as the Trail of Tears which the Irish or Italians endured and the government sponsored. Black 47. But that would exceed the horror, scale and utter disregard for human life. That’s what I always bet in roulette! I hate that game….
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Post by seastape on Aug 16, 2021 20:32:23 GMT -8
Critical Race Theory for conservatives.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Aug 16, 2021 21:44:53 GMT -8
Critical Race Theory for conservatives. History is messy and nuanced. The various governments of the United States of America and the people thereof have crapped on almost everyone at various times. And, the people that did the crapping often were crapped on themselves both in the New World and the Old World. And the people who got crapped on in the Old World is often why they wound up in the New World in the first place. Victims of victims of victims of victims victimize victims. And we are all supposed to have survivor's guilt about not being the most-victimized. And harping on it is all designed to bring us all closer together.....or something.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Aug 16, 2021 22:58:58 GMT -8
Black 47 is a part of the history of the United States of America. Just by way of example, Catherine Eugenia "Jean" Finnegan Biden is Joe Biden's Mom. Her dad is a first-generation-American born of two survivors of Black 47. Her mom's two parents were both first-generation-Americans born of four survivors of Black 47. Jean Biden and her ancestors are survivors of Black 47. They all came to the United States of America in coffin ships in the 1840s and early 1850s. The genocide (to use other's word) that was Black 47 was, is and will continue to be a huge part of the history of the United States of America. If you want something of a larger-scale again, though, you could go with the Civil War. More Irish died in the American Civil War than Native Americans on the Trail of Tears. My great-great-great-great grandfather was a first generation Irish immigrant via Canada and served in the 15th Maine. He died in Pensacola in 1862.
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