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Post by willtalk on Apr 25, 2020 10:37:39 GMT -8
The fact that you thought that my reference to Alan Iverson had anything specifically to do with Cayton reveals that you don't even know what I was referring to. It was in reference to a style of play by a point guard. Most of the responses to my posts are generally triggered by the disagreement that some posters have with my not being a fan of score first PG play. I would actually like to start a separate thread where the pluses and minus on scoring Pg can be discussed. Sometimes to get a better perspective it is better to discuss principles rather than individuals. To me, it is about the style of play and not players. When it becomes about the players some objectivity is lost. I really believe it is not in the best interests of players who have plans of going on to the next level to focus on getting the numbers to improve their draft position. The need to spend their time improving in all other areas. It will eventually catch up to them at the next level. Unfortunately, players seem to be satisfied with just focusing on their strengths so they can shine for their fans.
Critizing style of play is not an attack on the player. Most of the time they just are doing what they have been encouraged to do their entire basketball careers by their friends and family. But the light can come on at any time. During her Jr year Layshia Clarendon was the consummate ball-hog/ gunner. I remember in Cals game against TA&M there was a series of 6 straight offensive possessions when no one but her touched or shot the ball. The next year she played shooting guard instead and the light went on and she became the best passer and top assist player on the team. She is still in the WNBA as a Pg. with two All Star Games under her belt.
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Post by beavershoopsfan on Apr 25, 2020 11:16:51 GMT -8
Do the fans on this board who saw most of Oregon State's games consider Slocum as a shoot-first or score-first point guard during her two seasons in Corvallis?
Arizona's McDonald certainly is and that has worked out pretty well for her. McDonald was an All-American this past season but had an assist-to-ratio of less than 1. Scoring point guards can be a good thing in the right system.
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Post by beaveragain on Apr 25, 2020 11:26:00 GMT -8
The problem Will, is that your memory of reality and others memory seem to differ. My memory is that Boyd was the PG at California and that Clarendon just provided some relief on occasion. But maybe it's my memory that's slackin.
And my memory of reality is that Destiny was never the score first type of PG. Yes, she did score. And please point out to me the successful NBA PG that didn't also score.
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Post by grad1973 on Apr 25, 2020 14:57:31 GMT -8
The reason Destiny was benched her first year was because she was a shoot first guard and wasnt setting up the offense as well as Leah. destiny got much better this year with getting control of her game and looking to pass. But this year we had problems with getting points out of the starters so we really needed Destiny to score more this year. I felt Destiny had a break out year this year and not the same pressure on her as her first starting year. I thought she played so well this year I feared something was going to happen. She played really relaxed this year and think relationship with coach /player must have been good.
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Post by beavershoopsfan on Apr 25, 2020 16:42:45 GMT -8
She played really relaxed this year and think relationship with coach/player must have been good. Unfortunately, the fact that Slocum put her name in the portal and transferred gives us some insight about the relationship that the head coach and point guard shared. |
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Post by willtalk on Apr 29, 2020 22:29:49 GMT -8
Beaveragain In respect to Clarendon, you are both wrong and right. You are just mixing up the years she played point and shooting guard. Of course I did not help by putting in the wrong year she switched to shooting guard. She did that her Jr year. For some reason I said she was a gunner in her Jr year. It was her soph year I was referring to. Boyd came in to play the point in Clarendons Jr year. Ironically Boyd was a gunner as well and Clarendon became a really good passer who created offensive flow as a shooting guard. Maybe it was because she finally knew what it was like to have to play without the ball and have to rely on someone else to get the ball to you. Boyd got most of her assists on fast breaks but had real trouble running a half court offense. That's what Clarendon did her last two years on the team. Though she was listed as the SG she was the one that facilitated the half court offense. Boyd did improve her last two years, but those first few were real killers. It did not help that she was not a good perimeter shooter. So defenders just dropped off her and closed her driving and passing lanes. I don't have a problem with Pg scoring. Her problem was not being a gunner. Slocum was never either a high volume shooter or scorer in college. Her problem is that she controls the ball entirely too much looking for an open lane or sometimes even an assist. The thing is if you don't have a shot or an open lane it is better to pass the ball to another player. You can created open shots and driving lanes via ball movement more than off the dribble. Last season she had some of her most effective scoring games playing off the ball. It is not about scoring but knowing when the game calls for you to do so. It's all about making smart decisions. Not just sometimes but consistently. There is time for creating for your self and others off the dribble. You don't want to rely too much on that because you get too predictable. Both her and Pivec like to create off the dribble and with both of them on the floor together it created a real offensive flow problem. So often they had two shooting guards on the floor running the offense. Neither Slocum or Pivec are good enough one on one players for that skill to carry them at the next level. They need to play smarter and make good decisions. Plum was a scoring machine and she had a tough time adjusting her first year. Probably neither Slocum or Pivec will even be given a year. They will have to worry about just making it on a roster. I really want to get into more detail on how this affects other players on a separate thread. |
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Post by willtalk on Apr 29, 2020 23:35:30 GMT -8
The reason Destiny was benched her first year was because she was a shoot first guard and wasnt setting up the offense as well as Leah. destiny got much better this year with getting control of her game and looking to pass. But this year we had problems with getting points out of the starters so we really needed Destiny to score more this year. I felt Destiny had a break out year this year and not the same pressure on her as her first starting year. I thought she played so well this year I feared something was going to happen. She played really relaxed this year and think relationship with coach /player must have been good. I actually agree with the majority of your post. Throughout this season I always mentioned how much better Destiny was playing. She generally was running the offense really well. Although it was still somewhat of a problem when both her an Pivec were on the floor together because it was Pivec who regressed early on this season. It was just in the latter part of the season that it appeared that Destiny decided she was not going to be a facilitator and would focus primarily on getting numbers for herself. The relationship was good most of the season, because she was playing like Scott wanted her too. I also remember getting on posters cases who were saying that Destiny should take over and play more one on one. It seems that right about then is when she decided to return to her last years style of play. I think I even remember the game when she changed over. I suspected right after that time she might transfer out. I actually thought she might transfer out at the end of last season. I suppose she felt she could wait till after this season and always go pro or leave as a grad transfer and not have to sit. |
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Post by beavershoopsfan on Apr 30, 2020 8:39:32 GMT -8
I just wish willtalk would stop posting here and trying to convince Beaver Nation what transpired with the Beavers this past season. Could OSU's ball movement have been better? Yes. Numerous posters, including me, pointed that out earlier in the season even as the team started 15-0. Willtalk doesn't know about the relationship shared between Slocum and Rueck based upon what he saw on the court.
The Beavers had two players who drove regularly this past season to attack the paint and/or draw double teams. Neither of those two players was a shoot-first player. The stats bear that out. A team has to have players who penetrate the lane to keep the opposing defenses honest. Both of those players were efficient with their shooting percentages and had solid A:T ratios. They both earned All-PAC-12 honors for a second straight season and were quality teammates by all accounts.
Willtalk should stick to Cal's message board and post about things that he knows better. Very bad form for a poster to consistently post on a program's board and criticize its players with regularity.
As for Cayton, there are multiple red flags about her game and style of play that would give pause to any PAC-12 team in need of a point guard. I don't believe that OSU would have offered her, but she listed the Beavs among her "Final 6" just like a high school senior does when she wants extra attention. Did OSU call her and speak with her like lots of other schools do when players put their names in the portal? Perhaps. If willtalk is looking for a ball dominant player who doesn't shoot well to post about, he should do so on the BearInsider message board and praise Cayton or explain away why her stats are misleading all he wants like he did in this thread.
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Post by beavershoopsfan on Apr 30, 2020 10:46:20 GMT -8
Beaveragain In respect to Clarendon, you are both wrong and right. You are just mixing up the years she played point and shooting guard. Of course I did not help by putting in the wrong year she switched to shooting guard. She did that her Jr year. For some reason I said she was a gunner in her Jr year. It was her soph year I was referring to. Boyd came in to play the point in Clarendons Jr year. Ironically Boyd was a gunner as well and Clarendon became a really good passer who created offensive flow as a shooting guard. Maybe it was because she finally knew what it was like to have to play without the ball and have to rely on someone else to get the ball to you. Boyd got most of her assists on fast breaks but had real trouble running a half court offense. That's what Clarendon did her last two years on the team. Though she was listed as the SG she was the one that facilitated the half court offense. Boyd did improve her last two years, but those first few were real killers. It did not help that she was not a good perimeter shooter. So defenders just dropped off her and closed her driving and passing lanes. I don't have a problem with Pg scoring. Her problem was not being a gunner. Slocum was never either a high volume shooter or scorer in college. Her problem is that she controls the ball entirely too much looking for an open lane or sometimes even an assist. The thing is if you don't have a shot or an open lane it is better to pass the ball to another player. You can created open shots and driving lanes via ball movement more than off the dribble. Last season she had some of her most effective scoring games playing off the ball. It is not about scoring but knowing when the game calls for you to do so. It's all about making smart decisions. Not just sometimes but consistently. There is time for creating for your self and others off the dribble. You don't want to rely too much on that because you get too predictable. Both her and Pivec like to create off the dribble and with both of them on the floor together it created a real offensive flow problem. So often they had two shooting guards on the floor running the offense. Neither Slocum or Pivec are good enough one on one players for that skill to carry them at the next level. They need to play smarter and make good decisions. Plum was a scoring machine and she had a tough time adjusting her first year. Probably neither Slocum or Pivec will even be given a year. They will have to worry about just making it on a roster. I really want to get into more detail on how this affects other players on a separate thread. Please, please don't.... |
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