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Post by beavershoopsfan on Apr 8, 2020 14:47:53 GMT -8
Cayton was very quick as a frosh for Cal, but really couldn't shoot from midrange or beyond that year. That was three years ago. My guess is her quickness advantage is likely gone now following multiple knee surgeries, but perhaps she has gained a jumpshot in the three seasons since.
She played on the St. Mary's HS team with Tudor that won the Cal open state title in 2015 when both were juniors. Back then, she was a pressing, athletic defender who drove to the paint to get her points. Her game now has likely evolved away from the frenetic pace that she played at prior to surgery.
At this point, her game has to be a bit of a mystery since she really hasn't competed since 2017.
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Post by beaverstever on Apr 8, 2020 15:35:11 GMT -8
She’s had knee injuries the past three seasons. A low risk/high reward scenario for OSU given that we desperately need guard help. I anticipate she should be able to play some PG. I believe she is also known for her defensive abilities, so maybe with Cayton and Goforth we’ll be a much improved defensive team. I think Minyon Moore may be a better comparison than Slocum. I'm curious why you see her as low-risk, high reward. Given her history, to me she's a pretty high risk of being another cheerleader on the bench, and there's not a lot of evidence she can return to Pac-12 level athleticism in terms of upside. Defensive quickness in particular needs good knee stability. |
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Post by beaverwbb fan on Apr 8, 2020 19:34:32 GMT -8
And she just committed to Nebraska (she committed there out of HS before the coaching change). Must love it there.
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Post by beavertd on Apr 8, 2020 20:26:59 GMT -8
If you can get any kind of impression from twitter, I think we have a very good chance. Or not lol! She just committed to Nebraska on twitter! Appeared like some family and friends were pushing for the Beavers. That was my impression from reading comments. Obviously dead wrong! |
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Post by beavershoopsfan on Apr 8, 2020 22:52:29 GMT -8
Best wishes to her at Nebraska. She deserves good health and a productive career there.
I know that there are some other point guard options in the portal for the OSU coaching staff to explore what kind of interest they have in transferring to OSU. And I believe that the quarantine is providing the coaching staff with ample time to reach out and express interest in bringing some experienced backcourt reinforcements to Corvallis.
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Post by willtalk on Apr 9, 2020 16:43:37 GMT -8
Not that it matters now, but some corrections of Cayton. For one, she was a much better perimeter shooter than her frosh stats showed. I saw her in high school and she was generally clutch from 3. Every perimeter player that played for Gottlieb while Anigwe was there 3pt percentage dropped considerably. She had the entire offense geared to Anigwe and players were generally instructed to get her the ball on almost every possession, so the only shots they generally ended up taking were clock expiring low percentage desperation shots. Gottlieb, in Anigwe's final years, ran a more balanced offense, but Cayton did not play those years.
She was perfectly capable of playing the point because she had excellent court vision and looked for the assist before the shot. What she really brought to the game was her intensity on both offense and defense. She was a different sort of scorer on drives than either Slocum or Pivec. She was able to adjust in the air to get her shot off even when facing post defenders. She seldom had to pick up her dribble, but rather her weird off balance shots would draw shooting fouls on contested shots.
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Post by orange123 on Apr 9, 2020 19:32:27 GMT -8
Did OSU even offer her?
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Post by beavershoopsfan on Apr 9, 2020 21:09:22 GMT -8
Not that it matters now, but some corrections of Cayton. For one, she was a much better perimeter shooter than her frosh stats showed. I saw her in high school and she was generally clutch from 3. Every perimeter player that played for Gottlieb while Anigwe was there 3pt percentage dropped considerably. She had the entire offense geared to Anigwe and players were generally instructed to get her the ball on almost every possession, so the only shots they generally ended up taking were clock expiring low percentage desperation shots. Gottlieb, in Anigwe's final years, ran a more balanced offense, but Cayton did not play those years. She was perfectly capable of playing the point because she had excellent court vision and looked for the assist before the shot. What she really brought to the game was her intensity on both offense and defense. She was a different sort of scorer on drives than either Slocum or Pivec. She was able to adjust in the air to get her shot off even when facing post defenders. She seldom had to pick up her dribble, but rather her weird off balance shots would draw shooting fouls on contested shots. Willtalk seems to praise Cayton in his above post after having blasted Slocum, Pivec, and Wiese for their point guard play on this website in recent years. Cayton shot 40% from the field, 27% from distance, and 56% from the free throw line as a frosh. An objective observer can't realistically blame Gottlieb (as willtalk does above) for Cayton's poor shooting that season. Gottlieb was not shooting for Cayton. Cayton received plenty of court time that season, starting 13 of her team's 34 games and averaging 24.4 minutes per game. Her assists/turnovers for that season were 73/63. She was erratic and inconsistent offensively while averaging 5.6 points and 2.1 assists per game. Great to read that Cayton was able to get her shot off "even when facing post defenders." However, the truth is that her shots didn't go in very often. She may have "looked for the assist before the shot" because she was a below average shooter that season. Any comparison of how Cayton performed in '16-'17 to how OSU point guards fared offensively over the past combined seven seasons would result in Cayton's play being significantly marginalized. Cayton was a very good high school player at St. Mary's whose transition to D1 exposed some flaws in her offensive game. It was her quickness on defense that was her strength. Her A:T ratio was poor for a point guard, especially for someone who had "excellent court vision" and "seldom had to pick up her dribble" as willtalk wrote above about Cayton. I wish Cayton well at Nebraska and hope that she has multiple years of injury-free play. I would think that she may be granted a sixth year, allowing her to play two more seasons. My post above was not intended to bash Cayton's play as a frosh, but to point out that willtalk's evaluation of players' performances at the point guard position is often not reflective of what the players' statistics have borne out. |
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Post by 411500 on Apr 10, 2020 7:26:44 GMT -8
bhf--now that's what I call solid player analysis....
Thanks for giving evidence based recruiting a shot in the arm.....
GO BEAVS !!
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Post by shelby on Apr 10, 2020 7:48:50 GMT -8
Sounds / reads like ( if we did offer ), it ended up well for both parties. Hope she has an injury free Nebraska career and that we end up with another Mikayla or Destiny 'type' of player.
I also hope that we will finally get some solid minutes from our bigs ( Taylor - stay healthy ) Kennedy - please take the time to recover at your pace - in other words ... no need to rush. cannot wait to see our 2020 edition .
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Post by gnawitall on Apr 10, 2020 20:42:42 GMT -8
Sounds / reads like ( if we did offer ), it ended up well for both parties. Hope she has an injury free Nebraska career and that we end up with another Mikayla or Destiny 'type' of player. I also hope that we will finally get some solid minutes from our bigs ( Taylor - stay healthy ) Kennedy - please take the time to recover at your pace - in other words ... no need to rush. cannot wait to see our 2020 edition . or 21, 22, 23... so hard to know. We got hope anyway. And no, she's not a 6-1 point/ wing who lead the nation in scoring and assists her senior year. |
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Post by willtalk on Apr 18, 2020 14:03:01 GMT -8
Not that it matters now, but some corrections of Cayton. For one, she was a much better perimeter shooter than her frosh stats showed. I saw her in high school and she was generally clutch from 3. Every perimeter player that played for Gottlieb while Anigwe was there 3pt percentage dropped considerably. She had the entire offense geared to Anigwe and players were generally instructed to get her the ball on almost every possession, so the only shots they generally ended up taking were clock expiring low percentage desperation shots. Gottlieb, in Anigwe's final years, ran a more balanced offense, but Cayton did not play those years. She was perfectly capable of playing the point because she had excellent court vision and looked for the assist before the shot. What she really brought to the game was her intensity on both offense and defense. She was a different sort of scorer on drives than either Slocum or Pivec. She was able to adjust in the air to get her shot off even when facing post defenders. She seldom had to pick up her dribble, but rather her weird off balance shots would draw shooting fouls on contested shots. Willtalk seems to praise Cayton in his above post after having blasted Slocum, Pivec, and Wiese for their point guard play on this website in recent years. To begin with I was not praising Gayton but giving some corrections about her perimeter shooting based on circumstances. She was a better shooter than her stats seemed to show. Your comment on my post seems geared more to discredit any observations I might have stated about my perspective on how the point should be played. In respect to you comment about me blasting Slocum, Pivec and Wiese that is over kill and taken out of context other than the fact I do not prefer ball dominating scoring point guards.
With respect to Pivec, I praised her play beginning at the end of her sophomore season all through last season. Wiese only became part of the conversation in respect to the difficulties that Pivec had when she was transitioning to play the point. I stated that she really did not have a true point to model herself after because Wiese was also a ball dominate off guard playing the point. In respect to Slocum, she was playing excellent ball at the beginning of this season until she decided to revert to her previous form. I call play as I see it. When a player plays well I credit them and when their play comes up short and it is talked about I also say what I see. I try not to let my fandom interfer with objectivity. I truly believe that fans over the top praise often stand in the way of players getting better.
Cayton shot 40% from the field, 27% from distance, and 56% from the free throw line as a frosh. An objective observer can't realistically blame Gottlieb (as willtalk does above) for Cayton's poor shooting that season. Gottlieb was not shooting for Cayton. Cayton received plenty of court time that season, starting 13 of her team's 34 games and averaging 24.4 minutes per game. Her assists/turnovers for that season were 73/63. She was erratic and inconsistent offensively while averaging 5.6 points and 2.1 assists per game. I have been active poster on the Cal Bear site for about 12 years, and have followed the program for much longer than that. It is no secret that except for some of the later years Cal was where shooters went to die. It was thus under Boyle and I thought it would change under Gottlieb, but it turned out it became worse once Anigwe entered the program. The fact that the offense was predictable and totally geared to getting Anigwe the ball was constantly being discussed on the site by posters. As I stated Gottleib did finally make some changes the last couple of years but the offense was still geared to Anigwe. It was so much so that when Anigwe graduated Gottleib flew the coup leaving the program devoid of talent. I believe I know more about the situation at Cal than you do based purely on your reading of stats. It was not just Cayton who was handcuffed but the other guards as well.Great to read that Cayton was able to get her shot off "even when facing post defenders." However, the truth is that her shots didn't go in very often. She may have "looked for the assist before the shot" because she was a below average shooter that season. Any comparison of how Cayton performed in '16-'17 to how OSU point guards fared offensively over the past combined seven seasons would result in Cayton's play being significantly marginalized. To begin with you would not know how often her shots at the rim went in or not based purely on stats. You can read the Cal site posts and they will tell you that she was their best threat driving to he hoop. Much of the difficulty in doing that was that Anigwe never left the paint and she was usually double teamed which clogged the lanes. Ordinarily that would create open looks but the guards were instructed to get her the ball double team or not. If you read my post carefully I was not comparing Cayton with Pivec or Slocum in effectiveness only in style. I even use the term different than either Pivec or Slocum acknowledging that they were also different from each other. I certainly was not making any comparison in respect to Caytons over all point guard play with the Oregon St players because she did not really play much point for Cal. She basically played back up point and it was as a freshman. It would be stupid to make comparisons in that respect. But you chose to imply that just so you could have some sort of come back argument to discredit my perspective on how the point should be played. You pretty much stated that your self in your last sentence in your post. Cayton was a very good high school player at St. Mary's whose transition to D1 exposed some flaws in her offensive game. It was her quickness on defense that was her strength. Her A:T ratio was poor for a point guard, especially for someone who had "excellent court vision" and "seldom had to pick up her dribble" as willtalk wrote above about Cayton. Her flaws were not exposed anymore than any other freshman's are. St Marys played as tough of a schedule as anyone during her time there. She constantly faced and did well against D1 talent. An example being the Cal Open Title Game against Mater Dei where she was named MVP. We don't really know how well she would have done had she not gotten injured. We still don't know how well she will do at Nebraska. Oh and she didn't have to pick up her dribble because she loved to initiate contact on her drives this is what made her driving style different.
I wish Cayton well at Nebraska and hope that she has multiple years of injury-free play. I would think that she may be granted a sixth year, allowing her to play two more seasons. My post above was not intended to bash Cayton's play as a frosh, but to point out that willtalk's evaluation of players' performances at the point guard position is often not reflective of what the players' statistics have borne out. Yes you give your real reason for this response. It was agenda driven and thus not really objective. You found stats to quantify the perspective you wished to promote. You admit is was not really about Cayton but only to show that my perspective on her was wrong. You even changed my statements out of context in order to do so. But stats do not tell the whole story in basketball. Especially in a short season like exists in college basketball that do not give you much of a base sample to work with. Stats are often used by people to discredit observational analysis. People that lack that ability often feel it necessary to resort to stats.
You might want to check out the video posted on the Boneyard where Geno gives his player breakdown of why people are so high on Sabally. Much of it involves her play when she is moving without the ball or making the right pass. Geno says that lots of players know how to make plays, but its not really about How but When. . It's about reading defenses and making the best choice. Stats do not always show if a player makes the best play consistently. You can sometimes still score not making the best decision. |
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Post by beavershoopsfan on Apr 18, 2020 14:23:44 GMT -8
The reality is that willtalk had effusive praise for Cayton as a point guard following a freshman season in which she struggled mightily offensively. Hers stats are the most objective measurement of her overall effectiveness as a player on the offensive end.
I won't attempt to rebut the above post. However, style points aren't awarded in basketball for close but unsuccessful shots or turnovers that were almost good passes.
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Post by willtalk on Apr 24, 2020 10:27:34 GMT -8
The reality is that willtalk had effusive praise for Cayton as a point guard following a freshman season in which she struggled mightily offensively. Hers stats are the most objective measurement of her overall effectiveness as a player on the offensive end. I won't attempt to rebut the above post. However, style points aren't awarded in basketball for close but unsuccessful shots or turnovers that were almost good passes. You won't attempt to rebut because you can't. All you have is your looked up stats on a Cal team you knew very little about. Your perspective on basketball is superficial and shallow. You were obviously influence by the media hype that came about once the NBA became more popular and was on TV more often. The networks marketing plan shifted away form promoting teams to promoting the individual players on the teams. Thus also the focus shifted away form team play, except for a few teams who found a lot of success because they had not lost sight of what basketball is all about. Alan ( what practice ) Iverson is the perfect example of a really great one-on-one basketball player who was finally exposed as not really helping his teams as much as his inflated stats initially suggested. So much so, that even though he was still able to put up All Star numbers no team would touch him and his NBA career ended much too early. I, myself, was an early fan of his, but his example taught me some valuable basketball lessons. One of which was you do not only consider the stats of an individual player but also the stats of the players around them. |
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Post by beavershoopsfan on Apr 24, 2020 11:40:04 GMT -8
I recognize that stats often don't reveal the full value of a player's contributions to a team's success. A player's value on the defensive end is also not always reflected in the number of defensive rebounds, blocked shots, and steals that he/she accumulates. However, comparing Allen Iverson's career to Cayton's value as a point guard is an absurd analogy.
I saw Cayton play in high school and at Cal. Her game has flaws with respect to decision making and shooting. Those flaws were on display during her freshman season at Cal. I quickly dismiss the suggestion that a player's poor shooting percentages can be attributed to that player's head coach, especially a 56% free throw percentage during which the player is not guarded. Don't blame a player's season-long struggle from the field, perimeter, and free throw line on her coach. Sometimes, quality high school players just don't make the transition to playing at a high level of D1 play. Cayton's transition was further complicated by knee injuries.
Like it or not, a point guard is often evaluated on her assist-to-turnover ratio, even if she isn't expected to be a solid scorer and is primarily relied upon to be a distributor. With the opportunity to obtain assists by passing inside to Anigwe for easy finishes within the paint, the A:T ratio of 1.1:1 for Cayton leaves a lot to be desired for a point guard with "great court vision." I wrote in a previous post that I would not rebut willtalk in that post, but he called me out and wrote that I couldn't do so. I just didn't feel compelled to shoot him down again
I hope that Cayton has a solid two years at Nebraska. Hopefully, her game has improved being away from competition for the better part of three seasons.
And it is okay for point guards to shoot and score. In fact, a point guard has to shoot to keep the opposing defense honest. Ionescu's value as a point guard was signficiantly enhanced by her ability to shoot and score.
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