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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 13:30:03 GMT -8
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Post by baseba1111 on Nov 19, 2019 13:30:03 GMT -8
Every elite program stresses D... you're not a D1 recruit if you can't. Some teams may stress it, but all demand you play it. Unless you are EXTREMELY valuable offensively you're not seeing the floor if you can't defend. And... this OSU team may be one of the weakest as far as individual m2m defenders. Good team defense overall, but shot blockers behind have hidden some big lapses on that end. The zone employed vs Mizz St was highly effective and will be a nice complement. But, right now this team is not where other Beaver defenses have been. Stats are apple to oranges when comparing other teams. All you need to see is amount of dribble penetration by G/W/P. As for recruits, betting on the mindset of teens isn't a great idea. Most elite recruits want to go to elite programs, they want an opportunity to win/win a lot. Some even go to a school to build a new elite program... thx Syd, Jamie, Ruth, etc. But, I'll match your bet that the emphasis on O vs D isn't as big of factor as you think. Plus, as mentioned, OSU/SR aren't unique in what they expect from players. The elite programs aren't where they are without playing great D. Oregon does not stress defense and they don't play great defense. They are still a damn good team. You're wrong... they stress D in a different style with the talent they have. You've never watched Graves if you think D isn't important to him. Opponents get more possessions because of the tempo they play. But, they play D. |
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 13:36:01 GMT -8
Post by beaverwbb fan on Nov 19, 2019 13:36:01 GMT -8
Oregon does not stress defense and they don't play great defense. They are still a damn good team. You're wrong... they stress D in a different style with the talent they have. You've never watched Graves if you think D isn't important to him. Opponents get more possessions because of the tempo they play. But, they play D. And that goes back to my original point of tempo. A lot of players would prefer to play at a higher tempo. Rueck definitely values defense more than Graves. Rueck prioritized Goforth for her defensive abilities. |
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 13:51:44 GMT -8
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Post by baseba1111 on Nov 19, 2019 13:51:44 GMT -8
You're wrong... they stress D in a different style with the talent they have. You've never watched Graves if you think D isn't important to him. Opponents get more possessions because of the tempo they play. But, they play D. And that goes back to my original point of tempo. A lot of players would prefer to play at a higher tempo. Rueck definitely values defense more than Graves. Rueck prioritized Goforth for her defensive abilities. Tempo doesn't mean you don't value/play D. The point was recruits not wanting to come to OSU/SR because they refused to fit the style. Nope... they chose a school they liked better... for many reasons. So... according to your ideas SR wouldn't have recruited a 5* that played lesser D? Cuz, like they can't coach them up? So, SR wouldn't have taken some of the uck 5*s because they can't play D? And, SR allowed Destiny to transfer because she's a stellar defender? Destiny chose OSU because she wanted to be in slow tempo and play D? You diminish other elite programs based on pure bias. Those recruits didn't pick OSU. Making up reasons out of thin air doesn't make it so. SR and staff coach up every recruit... none play D1 level O or D until they are coached up. |
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 14:05:45 GMT -8
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Post by beaverwbb fan on Nov 19, 2019 14:05:45 GMT -8
And that goes back to my original point of tempo. A lot of players would prefer to play at a higher tempo. Rueck definitely values defense more than Graves. Rueck prioritized Goforth for her defensive abilities. Tempo doesn't mean you don't value/play D. The point was recruits not wanting to come to OSU/SR because they refused to fit the style. Nope... they chose a school they liked better... for many reasons. So... according to your ideas SR wouldn't have recruited a 5* that played lesser D? Cuz, like they can't coach them up? So, SR wouldn't have taken some of the uck 5*s because they can't play D? And, SR allowed Destiny to transfer because she's a stellar defender? Destiny chose OSU because she wanted to be in slow tempo and play D? You diminish other elite programs based on pure bias. Those recruits didn't pick OSU. Making up reasons out of thin air doesn't make it so. SR and staff coach up every recruit... none play D1 level O or D until they are coached up. The staff has already stated that Goforth is a superior perimeter defender to anyone on this current squad, so I'll assume he doesn't think she needs much coaching up to get to the D1 level, unless the rest of our defenders aren't on that level. I'm not saying Rueck wouldn't have taken them, but that he didn't recruit them for one reason or another (with the exception of PaoPao who we did recruit). What I have said and will continue to say is many recruits choose program off of fit, and many coaches recruit players off of fit, tempo, style of play, etc. If a player values an uptempo style of play, they ultimately won't choose OSU in most cases, but they would be more likely interested in a school like Oregon or UConn which is known for running. I love Van Lith's game, but I question how well it fit Rueck's style, which is likely a reason she eliminated us before she cut to four schools. She is a pitbull and plays very good defense, but she also likes to play a lot of one on one. If she saw that Rueck's system doesn't entail a lot of one on one (outside of Slocum, who at times has gotten benched for it), she would be smart to realize OSU is not a great fit for her, and move on to schools that are a better fit. Rueck clearly recruited Van Lith hard, but she did not want to be here, it happens. Two players I liked a lot were Clark and Martin, but both chose schools closer to home. A lot of people on other boards have questioned Slocum's decision to go from a high tempo offense at Maryland that didn't stress defense (and sorry, but Destiny said it herself) to Oregon State which plays at a more controlled tempo and stresses defense. Also, not sure how I've diminished programs. Oregon is a damn good program, so is Uconn, so is Baylor, so is Oregon State. Uconn plays a high tempo and stresses D. From what I've seen of Oregon, my personal opinion is that they aren't a great defensive team. |
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Post by skyrider on Nov 19, 2019 14:45:38 GMT -8
Thanks to all for an excellent discussion. I learned a lot and acquired a different perspective on several areas.
As an possible topic of discussion, I vote for Gabby Hansen as the best individual and team defender during the time I have watched OSU women's basketball (about 20 years). The floor is open for other nominees!
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 15:03:40 GMT -8
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Post by beaverwbb fan on Nov 19, 2019 15:03:40 GMT -8
Thanks to all for an excellent discussion. I learned a lot and acquired a different perspective on several areas.
As an possible topic of discussion, I vote for Gabby Hansen as the best individual and team defender during the time I have watched OSU women's basketball (about 20 years). The floor is open for other nominees!
Goforth will be neck and neck with Gabby by the time she leaves if she is as good as the coaches say. Ruth and Marie were both very good and I think Brown can be too. Of course those aren’t perimeter defenders though. |
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Post by beaveragain on Nov 19, 2019 17:12:01 GMT -8
The discussion about "fit" I agree with in general. The specifics of HVL and DD were different from the usual I believe. HVL has made no bones about how she wanted to be the starter from day 1, and that wasn't going to happen at OSU with Destiny and Aleah here. And DD had the combo problem of lots of bigs on line ahead of her and her families interest in her going to a higher level academic school. So I think that DD and HVL even having the Beav's in contention until late is a complement to SR and staff.
And the idea that everyone plays great defense. Last year on EFG defense Baylor, Conn, and OSU were all in the top 20. But Louisville, Notre Dame, and Oregon ranked in the 50's or lower. So yes, there are differences in emphasis between schools, and players know that. And yes, last year Oregon, Louisville and Notre Dame were all in the top 20 in their EFG.
And on everyone having a "family" atmosphere? Louisville redshirting 2 guards while still recruiting guards seems more like running a continuous pit fight than running a "family" sort of team. Obviously it works for Walz. But no, it is not the same everywhere. And saying it is is a disservice to SR and his staff who seem to me to be trying to do it differently.
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 17:27:03 GMT -8
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Post by Werebeaver on Nov 19, 2019 17:27:03 GMT -8
Tempo doesn't mean you don't value/play D. The point was recruits not wanting to come to OSU/SR because they refused to fit the style. Nope... they chose a school they liked better... for many reasons. So... according to your ideas SR wouldn't have recruited a 5* that played lesser D? Cuz, like they can't coach them up? So, SR wouldn't have taken some of the uck 5*s because they can't play D? And, SR allowed Destiny to transfer because she's a stellar defender? Destiny chose OSU because she wanted to be in slow tempo and play D? You diminish other elite programs based on pure bias. Those recruits didn't pick OSU. Making up reasons out of thin air doesn't make it so. SR and staff coach up every recruit... none play D1 level O or D until they are coached up. The staff has already stated that Goforth is a superior perimeter defender to anyone on this current squad,. Link? |
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 17:38:03 GMT -8
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Post by beaverwbb fan on Nov 19, 2019 17:38:03 GMT -8
The staff has already stated that Goforth is a superior perimeter defender to anyone on this current squad,. Link? Gladly: pamplinmedia.com/pt/12-sports/433141-341973-lots-going-on-with-oregon-state-womens-basketball“OSU coaches believe she is already a superior perimeter defender to anyone they have on their squad next season.” She is going to be a lot of fun to watch on that end. Used her long wingspan so well, and has quick feet too. Also a typo on my end because it says on next season’s squad, so it doesn’t include Mik. |
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Post by Werebeaver on Nov 19, 2019 17:47:11 GMT -8
Excellent. Thanks for the clarification. |
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 18:06:43 GMT -8
Post by beaverwbb fan on Nov 19, 2019 18:06:43 GMT -8
Excellent. Thanks for the clarification. I'm not really sure how that works though, because that article was obviously done well before Goforth was signed, but I guess since it wasn't direct it is allowed? |
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Post by rmancarl on Nov 19, 2019 20:36:43 GMT -8
I think I may have been the first person in this thread to mention 'fit', but I want to clarify a bit. Obviously players and coaches try to find players that fit what they are looking for....be that quickness, height, certain skills (3pt shooters) etc. While there is truth in all of that, it's my feeling that SR goes out of his way to find a 'person'that fits, not just a 'player' that fits. Obviousy the ideal recruit is the right person, as well as the right player. This is why you will hear Destiny tell of being grilled by SR before offering a visit, or why Greata K will make a comment like "he ask me questions other coaches haven't ask", or comments from recruits like "he recruits a certain type of person" (I think that was Sasha....maybe it was Kennedy). Whatever the case, I don't think I've ever seen a staff that emphasizes that 'person' fit as much as the Beavs do. I'm not saying others don't do it and I'm not saying the Beavers won't take the number one recruit in the country just because they are not sure about that 'fit'. I'm just saying that SR and staff puts more importance on total, all around fit, as a player and as a person than I have seen from any other program.
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 21:41:51 GMT -8
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Post by baseba1111 on Nov 19, 2019 21:41:51 GMT -8
I think I may have been the first person in this thread to mention 'fit', but I want to clarify a bit. Obviously players and coaches try to find players that fit what they are looking for....be that quickness, height, certain skills (3pt shooters) etc. While there is truth in all of that, it's my feeling that SR goes out of his way to find a 'person'that fits, not just a 'player' that fits. Obviousy the ideal recruit is the right person, as well as the right player. This is why you will hear Destiny tell of being grilled by SR before offering a visit, or why Greata K will make a comment like "he ask me questions other coaches haven't ask", or comments from recruits like "he recruits a certain type of person" (I think that was Sasha....maybe it was Kennedy). Whatever the case, I don't think I've ever seen a staff that emphasizes that 'person' fit as much as the Beavs do. I'm not saying others don't do it and I'm not saying the Beavers won't take the number one recruit in the country just because they are not sure about that 'fit'. I'm just saying that SR and staff puts more importance on total, all around fit, as a player and as a person than I have seen from any other program. My point... we're bias and more knowledgeable about this program. Everything is 2nd, 3rd hand or rumor about other programs, but they go about their biz basically the same way SR does. And, every program has their hits and misses. We just tend to amplify our hits and their misses. Other programs "grill" potential players and look for the complete person. All you have to do is look at all the wonderful young women that have come out of numerous universities. SR doesn't have some secret formula that isn't known to other coaches. He knows how to recruit to OSU and to his standards. Just like Geno at UConn, Tara at Furd, Muffet at ND, Graves at Gonzaga and now uckville, etc, etc, etc. And, each doesn't get all the kids they recruit. But, it doesn't mean they weren't a 'fit'... they just chose to go elsewhere for whatever reason. Bottom line recruits who don't choose to come to OSU turned us down, not the other way around. They would have been a "fit" had they chosen to attend. |
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 22:40:25 GMT -8
Post by beaveragain on Nov 19, 2019 22:40:25 GMT -8
I guess it depends on what you mean by "basically the same way".
Geno has the budget to go see a lot of kids, decides who he likes, and has his folks keep track of 20 or so of them. A few of them stay up to his standards of behavior and play and he gives them an offer. That's 5-7 kiddos that he then expands or shrinks based on how he recruited the year before.
Tara combs the world trying to find kiddos who will be able to get into Stanford and who can play bball etc. So her group of possible greatly expands and shrinks year to year.
Graves and Walz make offers to everyone on the ESPN top 100 list and then chase down all of the bites. The difference is that with Nike money Graves can afford to send people overseas to find more possibles. I've seen claims that Walz had offers to 40 this recruiting season and Graves had 30. Don't know the exact numbers but they put out a LOT of offers.
I can't tell but I'd guess SR started with about 10 offers this year and ended up with 2 so far. Which is about the same % as Graves got with his 30 offers.
So in some ways they go about it the same. But it's not how I'd describe it.
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 23:25:32 GMT -8
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Post by baseba1111 on Nov 19, 2019 23:25:32 GMT -8
I guess it depends on what you mean by "basically the same way". Geno has the budget to go see a lot of kids, decides who he likes, and has his folks keep track of 20 or so of them. A few of them stay up to his standards of behavior and play and he gives them an offer. That's 5-7 kiddos that he then expands or shrinks based on how he recruited the year before. Tara combs the world trying to find kiddos who will be able to get into Stanford and who can play bball etc. So her group of possible greatly expands and shrinks year to year. Graves and Walz make offers to everyone on the ESPN top 100 list and then chase down all of the bites. The difference is that with Nike money Graves can afford to send people overseas to find more possibles. I've seen claims that Walz had offers to 40 this recruiting season and Graves had 30. Don't know the exact numbers but they put out a LOT of offers. I can't tell but I'd guess SR started with about 10 offers this year and ended up with 2 so far. Which is about the same % as Graves got with his 30 offers. So in some ways they go about it the same. But it's not how I'd describe it. I just checked two sites on offers. You just made up numbers. Ucks, Louisville, UConn didn't offer anywhere near what you state... not in the same universe! First it was "everyone on the top 100", then 30-40. It wasn't close to 30! And, you'll be wrong if you think OSU spends a lot less to recruit. I don't know the current budget or amount specific to recruiting, but in 2016-17 OSU spent $3.52 million on WBB, ucks $3.83 million (they don't get to use extra Nike $ to use on school related travel). UConn was just over $4 million last season. I'd bet OSU is nearing that after 3 years. Did see Louisville spent only $173k on recruiting last season. Betting OSU at or near that?! Geno's budget pretty close to ours I'm betting. SR has "folks" keep track of his offers. SR used the entire globe to find players. SR can put out as many offers as anyone else. And, the discussion wasn't on offers out, that's never going to be an accurate number. Offers aren't publicized by schools and players often don't list all of them. The discussion was on players that sign and why they chose the school. So they do go about it in the same basic way... |
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