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Post by skyrider on Nov 19, 2019 7:19:46 GMT -8
Coach Rueck is increasingly recruiting the best talent he has ever had at OSU.
That being said, in my opinion, he is unlikely to ever have the "talent" level of a UConn, Stanford, Lousiville, Baylor, or much as I hate to say it U of O as long as Graves and Phil Knight are the unholy duo.
In my view the final determination each year for OSU in how they do during the season and in the playoffs, is how willing the players are to (a) accept totally the concept that team defense as taught by Coach Rueck and his staff and (b) give 100% effort to that defense.
When OSU does that, they can reach final fours. When they do not do that, they are often during the year, a team that can and will lose to teams that are more physically talented than they are.
I would be interested as always to hear the opinions of the group!
Thank you!
GO BEAVS!
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Post by rmancarl on Nov 19, 2019 8:05:48 GMT -8
Overall, I agree with you. With Scott as the head coach, the staple of the Beavs has always been defense, and the opponent field goal percentage is a stat that is always one of the best in the country for the Beavs.....despite many complaints on this board about the defense over the years. Hey, we want perfection. I get it.
You may be very correct about the level of talent, but I hope you end up being wrong. Landing talent has definitely picked up the last few years, and players like Slocum, Brown, Taylor, and Goforth are a sign that landing talent is going the right direction. I will say this though, SR sticks to his guns more on landing the right 'fit' for his program, often over talent. You can tell that just by watching which players the Beavs recruit, while seemingly not paying much attention to other very talented High School players. I still remember Destiny telling of how Coach grilled her before inviting her out to visit to make sure she was a right fit for the program.....despite how obviously talented she was, and the fact that she was freshman of the year in the Big 10.
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Post by shelby on Nov 19, 2019 8:09:01 GMT -8
He seems to be going for length and motors now. We still are not athletic as some of the other teams, but the ramp up ,in terms of these qualities, seems to be paying off in our defensive sets.
I would love to see a long armed 6’3” guard, with the ability to shadow and defend the shooting guard, so we can avoid getting beat by one player towards the end of some upcoming tight games.
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Post by skyrider on Nov 19, 2019 8:49:05 GMT -8
rmancarl and shelby,
Thanks for your thoughtful and insightful comments!
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Post by 411500 on Nov 19, 2019 9:02:28 GMT -8
Just a few quick comments....
First, it is a two-way street on Coach Rueck's insistence on "the right fit" player...Not only does he not accept players of the not-right fit, a lot VERY good players reject the Beavs because they are not the right fit....When players like HVL (Louisville) and DD (Cal) don't accept Beaver offers it is often because they simply do not want to "fit" into what the Beavers call the right fit...
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Second, several people on this board confuse "athletic" with quickness, court speed, and jumping ability. These are merely a few facets of basketball athleticism. Equally important are height, muscle, endurance, full court speed (in contrast to short distance quickness), the ability to absorb rough contact, to control the ball in the midst of slapping and hacking...These are all important indictors of basketball athleticism.
Mik Pivec is a perfect example of an extremely athletic player who does not have exceptional short distance quickness, or good jumping ability....But she is hyper-athletic and she is a player....
If you measure the totality of basketball athleticism you quickly see that the Beavs are, indeed, a very athletic team...Probably not the most athletic, but close to it.
GO BEAVS !!
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 9:08:19 GMT -8
Post by bennyskid on Nov 19, 2019 9:08:19 GMT -8
Disagree about the talent.
Don't assume that super recruiting classes translate into product on the court. Almost every year, some school gets a super class akin to what Graves has coming in next year. And almost every one of those classes falls apart. With the transfer portal being what it is, it's impossible to expect 5-star athletes to sit on the bench for two years before they get to play. There are exactly two exceptions: UConn (for as long as Geno is the coach) and Stanford (because it's Stanford). Of course, coaches like Graves and Wald will argue that it's best to get all the five-stars that you can and if some of them transfer out then you didn't want them anyway. But that's a big risk - the locker room can become a toxic waste dump and you can't build an identity. It's all but impossible to string big classes in a row, so there is no consistency in the program.
The ideal is to be Stanford, where 5-stars are willing to sit on the bench all day long because STANFORD DEGREE! But, lacking that, the ideal is to have 1-2 five-stars per year with the potential to start as freshmen, and 1-2 solid recruits (under-the-radar stars or project bigs). If you can string that together, year-after-year, then every year your starting five is all 5-stars (plus the occasional Ruth Hamblin-type) and your bench is solid. There are enough minutes for everyone, and you can limit your recruiting to ladies that fit your culture.
This is clearly Scott's philosophy. For 2020, we expect Sasha to start immediately and Savannah is apparently an up-and-comer - a four-star that will surely see significant minutes right away. For 2019, we got two great freshmen. He didn't quite get what he wanted in 2018 - Andrea was a five-star, but with an asterisk; Jas was a good second recruit and has seen good minutes. 2017 gave us Taya, a five star and immediate starter - and Aleah, a four-star up-and-comer. 2016 was a bigger class, with Mik the five-star and Kat the four-star who saw good minutes as a freshman. (Maddie was a four-star on some sites, too.) 2015 had five-star Katie Mac, with Taylor Kalmer getting good PT as a freshman.
So far, the results have been pretty good. *Consistent* success. A happy locker room. And every game we can put out a starting line-up of nothing but five-star players, backed up by more five-stars and well-developed four-stars (and Ruth Hamblins). These are teams that can contend for the Final Four and National Championships.
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Post by bvrbooster on Nov 19, 2019 9:29:16 GMT -8
To say that we'll never recruit as well as some others because of the 'fit' thing sells the program short I think. We are a relative newcomer to the ranks of the elite, and have only recently demonstrated that we have the staying power to remain within those ranks. We were never in the conversation for top recruits from different time zones; they probably knew about as much about our program as a current junior in California knows about Missouri State.
That has changed, as evidenced by the 2019 and 2020 recruiting classes which don't include a single player from the Pacific time zone. Also, consider that Katie was once our highest ranked recruit ever 5 years ago. That lasted one year until Mikayla came along, tied the following year by Taya, surpassed again the next year by Andrea, again this year by Kennedy, and yet again next year by Sasha.
Before Destiny transferred in, we had no McDonald's All Americans. Now we have 2. Next year we'll have 3. We have interest for the ollowing year from the numbers 8, 10, 12, and 19 ESPN recruits, and I'd guess they each have a pretty good idea of what the 'fit' is here.
So never say never.
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Post by greybeav on Nov 19, 2019 9:58:37 GMT -8
Dang, that is am amazing collection of good info, thought and discourse, the reason I came to this board, thanks for all that contributed
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Post by baseba1111 on Nov 19, 2019 10:26:44 GMT -8
To say that we'll never recruit as well as some others because of the 'fit' thing sells the program short I think. We are a relative newcomer to the ranks of the elite, and have only recently demonstrated that we have the staying power to remain within those ranks. We were never in the conversation for top recruits from different time zones; they probably knew about as much about our program as a current junior in California knows about Missouri State. That has changed, as evidenced by the 2019 and 2020 recruiting classes which don't include a single player from the Pacific time zone. Also, consider that Katie was once our highest ranked recruit ever 5 years ago. That lasted one year until Mikayla came along, tied the following year by Taya, surpassed again the next year by Andrea, again this year by Kennedy, and yet again next year by Sasha. Before Destiny transferred in, we had no McDonald's All Americans. Now we have 2. Next year we'll have 3. We have interest for the ollowing year from the numbers 8, 10, 12, and 19 ESPN recruits, and I'd guess they each have a pretty good idea of what the 'fit' is here. So never say never. Exactly... how is OSU's "fit' so much different than other top 25-50 schools? "When players like HVL (Louisville) and DD (Cal) don't accept Beaver offers it is often because they simply do not want to "fit" into what the Beavers call the right fit..." From a post above... not sure if I am misreading this, but it presumes that recruits only reject our program because of what SR wants from them. I think on the surface it states a somewhat arrogant approach to recruiting and not at all true of OSU. SR employs multiple styles during a game... uptempo, intricate halfcourt sets, m2m and zone defenses. If these recruits weren't a fit they'd never be offered in the first place regardless of star power. SR is one of many GREAT coaches out there. OSU is one of MANY programs that promote 'family' and treat players very well. SR is like EVERY other coach, he seeks players that fill the program's needs, and if offered they do. Those recruits that do not chose OSU pick teams that are generall very highly regarded... have been elite longer, have a great WBB history. They don;t disregard OSU because of some particular requirement of SR. OSU isn't some WBB basketball anomaly that has such different criteria for "fit". Players have family, social, and academic concerns that mold their decisions. Hard for some to believe, but some times it is not 100% about basketball. To pin recruits going elsewhere on they refuse to "fit" our system is simplistic and sounds a bit like the jilted partner whine. |
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Post by sparty on Nov 19, 2019 12:54:49 GMT -8
To say that we'll never recruit as well as some others because of the 'fit' thing sells the program short I think. We are a relative newcomer to the ranks of the elite, and have only recently demonstrated that we have the staying power to remain within those ranks. We were never in the conversation for top recruits from different time zones; they probably knew about as much about our program as a current junior in California knows about Missouri State. That has changed, as evidenced by the 2019 and 2020 recruiting classes which don't include a single player from the Pacific time zone. Also, consider that Katie was once our highest ranked recruit ever 5 years ago. That lasted one year until Mikayla came along, tied the following year by Taya, surpassed again the next year by Andrea, again this year by Kennedy, and yet again next year by Sasha. Before Destiny transferred in, we had no McDonald's All Americans. Now we have 2. Next year we'll have 3. We have interest for the ollowing year from the numbers 8, 10, 12, and 19 ESPN recruits, and I'd guess they each have a pretty good idea of what the 'fit' is here. So never say never. Exactly... how is OSU's "fit' so much different than other top 25-50 schools? "When players like HVL (Louisville) and DD (Cal) don't accept Beaver offers it is often because they simply do not want to "fit" into what the Beavers call the right fit..." From a post above... not sure if I am misreading this, but it presumes that recruits only reject our program because of what SR wants from them. I think on the surface it states a somewhat arrogant approach to recruiting and not at all true of OSU. SR employs multiple styles during a game... uptempo, intricate halfcourt sets, m2m and zone defenses. If these recruits weren't a fit they'd never be offered in the first place regardless of star power. SR is one of many GREAT coaches out there. OSU is one of MANY programs that promote 'family' and treat players very well. SR is like EVERY other coach, he seeks players that fill the program's needs, and if offered they do. Those recruits that do not chose OSU pick teams that are generall very highly regarded... have been elite longer, have a great WBB history. They don;t disregard OSU because of some particular requirement of SR. OSU isn't some WBB basketball anomaly that has such different criteria for "fit". Players have family, social, and academic concerns that mold their decisions. Hard for some to believe, but some times it is not 100% about basketball. To pin recruits going elsewhere on they refuse to "fit" our system is simplistic and sounds a bit like the jilted partner whine. You are not alone in your thinking, I think many agree . Excellent post btw in regards to "fit" . I might add you win some and you lose some and then you move on. |
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Post by beaverwbb fan on Nov 19, 2019 13:03:04 GMT -8
To say that we'll never recruit as well as some others because of the 'fit' thing sells the program short I think. We are a relative newcomer to the ranks of the elite, and have only recently demonstrated that we have the staying power to remain within those ranks. We were never in the conversation for top recruits from different time zones; they probably knew about as much about our program as a current junior in California knows about Missouri State. That has changed, as evidenced by the 2019 and 2020 recruiting classes which don't include a single player from the Pacific time zone. Also, consider that Katie was once our highest ranked recruit ever 5 years ago. That lasted one year until Mikayla came along, tied the following year by Taya, surpassed again the next year by Andrea, again this year by Kennedy, and yet again next year by Sasha. Before Destiny transferred in, we had no McDonald's All Americans. Now we have 2. Next year we'll have 3. We have interest for the ollowing year from the numbers 8, 10, 12, and 19 ESPN recruits, and I'd guess they each have a pretty good idea of what the 'fit' is here. So never say never. Exactly... how is OSU's "fit' so much different than other top 25-50 schools? "When players like HVL (Louisville) and DD (Cal) don't accept Beaver offers it is often because they simply do not want to "fit" into what the Beavers call the right fit..." From a post above... not sure if I am misreading this, but it presumes that recruits only reject our program because of what SR wants from them. I think on the surface it states a somewhat arrogant approach to recruiting and not at all true of OSU. SR employs multiple styles during a game... uptempo, intricate halfcourt sets, m2m and zone defenses. If these recruits weren't a fit they'd never be offered in the first place regardless of star power. SR is one of many GREAT coaches out there. OSU is one of MANY programs that promote 'family' and treat players very well. SR is like EVERY other coach, he seeks players that fill the program's needs, and if offered they do. Those recruits that do not chose OSU pick teams that are generall very highly regarded... have been elite longer, have a great WBB history. They don;t disregard OSU because of some particular requirement of SR. OSU isn't some WBB basketball anomaly that has such different criteria for "fit". Players have family, social, and academic concerns that mold their decisions. Hard for some to believe, but some times it is not 100% about basketball. To pin recruits going elsewhere on they refuse to "fit" our system is simplistic and sounds a bit like the jilted partner whine. Rueck’s system is traditionally a very slow system. Players like HVL would much rather play more uptempo. |
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Post by baseba1111 on Nov 19, 2019 13:06:26 GMT -8
Exactly... how is OSU's "fit' so much different than other top 25-50 schools? "When players like HVL (Louisville) and DD (Cal) don't accept Beaver offers it is often because they simply do not want to "fit" into what the Beavers call the right fit..." From a post above... not sure if I am misreading this, but it presumes that recruits only reject our program because of what SR wants from them. I think on the surface it states a somewhat arrogant approach to recruiting and not at all true of OSU. SR employs multiple styles during a game... uptempo, intricate halfcourt sets, m2m and zone defenses. If these recruits weren't a fit they'd never be offered in the first place regardless of star power. SR is one of many GREAT coaches out there. OSU is one of MANY programs that promote 'family' and treat players very well. SR is like EVERY other coach, he seeks players that fill the program's needs, and if offered they do. Those recruits that do not chose OSU pick teams that are generall very highly regarded... have been elite longer, have a great WBB history. They don;t disregard OSU because of some particular requirement of SR. OSU isn't some WBB basketball anomaly that has such different criteria for "fit". Players have family, social, and academic concerns that mold their decisions. Hard for some to believe, but some times it is not 100% about basketball. To pin recruits going elsewhere on they refuse to "fit" our system is simplistic and sounds a bit like the jilted partner whine. Rueck’s system is traditionally a very slow system. Players like HVL would much rather play more uptempo. SR system plays as the talent allows. It is very much a mixture, especially the last two seasons. Much like every other elite team. There is typically a mix as much as the opponents talent and style allows. HVL didn't play in a high tempo system in HS... other than in many games she was the only D1 talent on the floor. And, certainly not in comparison to what high tempo D1 is like. |
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 13:13:31 GMT -8
Post by beaverwbb fan on Nov 19, 2019 13:13:31 GMT -8
Rueck’s system is traditionally a very slow system. Players like HVL would much rather play more uptempo. SR system plays as the talent allows. It is very much a mixture, especially the last two seasons. Much like every other elite team. There is typically a mix as much as the opponents talent and style allows. HVL didn't play in a high tempo system in HS... other than in many games she was the only D1 talent on the floor. And, certainly not in comparison to what high tempo D1 is like. I'll bet a large percent of recruits would rather play in a system that prides itself on its high level offense (UO) than they would in a system that takes more pride on the defensive end (OSU). Since the arrival of Destiny, we've definitely kicked our offensive tempo up a bit. |
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 13:25:08 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by baseba1111 on Nov 19, 2019 13:25:08 GMT -8
SR system plays as the talent allows. It is very much a mixture, especially the last two seasons. Much like every other elite team. There is typically a mix as much as the opponents talent and style allows. HVL didn't play in a high tempo system in HS... other than in many games she was the only D1 talent on the floor. And, certainly not in comparison to what high tempo D1 is like. I'll bet a large percent of recruits would rather play in a system that prides itself on its high level offense (UO) than they would in a system that takes more pride on the defensive end (OSU). Every elite program stresses D... you're not a D1 recruit if you can't. Some teams may stress it, but all demand you play it. Unless you are EXTREMELY valuable offensively you're not seeing the floor if you can't defend. And... this OSU team may be one of the weakest as far as individual m2m defenders. Good team defense overall, but shot blockers behind have hidden some big lapses on that end. The zone employed vs Mizz St was highly effective and will be a nice complement. But, right now this team is not where other Beaver defenses have been. Stats are apple to oranges when comparing other teams. All you need to see is amount of dribble penetration by G/W/P. As for recruits, betting on the mindset of teens isn't a great idea. Most elite recruits want to go to elite programs, they want an opportunity to win/win a lot. Some even go to a school to build a new elite program... thx Syd, Jamie, Ruth, etc. But, I'll match your bet that the emphasis on O vs D isn't as big of factor as you think. Plus, as mentioned, OSU/SR aren't unique in what they expect from players. The elite programs aren't where they are without playing great D. |
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Defense
Nov 19, 2019 13:27:33 GMT -8
Post by beaverwbb fan on Nov 19, 2019 13:27:33 GMT -8
I'll bet a large percent of recruits would rather play in a system that prides itself on its high level offense (UO) than they would in a system that takes more pride on the defensive end (OSU). Every elite program stresses D... you're not a D1 recruit if you can't. Some teams may stress it, but all demand you play it. Unless you are EXTREMELY valuable offensively you're not seeing the floor if you can't defend. And... this OSU team may be one of the weakest as far as individual m2m defenders. Good team defense overall, but shot blockers behind have hidden some big lapses on that end. The zone employed vs Mizz St was highly effective and will be a nice complement. But, right now this team is not where other Beaver defenses have been. Stats are apple to oranges when comparing other teams. All you need to see is amount of dribble penetration by G/W/P. As for recruits, betting on the mindset of teens isn't a great idea. Most elite recruits want to go to elite programs, they want an opportunity to win/win a lot. Some even go to a school to build a new elite program... thx Syd, Jamie, Ruth, etc. But, I'll match your bet that the emphasis on O vs D isn't as big of factor as you think. Plus, as mentioned, OSU/SR aren't unique in what they expect from players. The elite programs aren't where they are without playing great D. Oregon does not stress defense and they don't play great defense. They are still a damn good team. |
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