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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Nov 26, 2019 22:45:45 GMT -8
I can't think of any players we've had that remind me of his play (gotta admit, I lived in Hawaii from '99-'12 and couldn't watch the Beavs then) since I started following them in the Shelton days. To say he can't generate a shot I find kind of amazing, he generates shots underneath, he generates foul shots, and he can hit from outside when needed but he seems to be more focused on driving. I cannot recall any player at OSU that could drive like him.. 2 on one, 3 on one, guys that are 3-4 inches taller, he either puts it in, draws a foul or finds an open guy more often than not. Fox's advanced stats had him as the number 2 ranked player in the Pac 12 last year, Hollinger currently has him at 4th in the Pac and 21st overall (couldn't find last year's stats). Now it's early yet this season and I frankly don't even know how they come up with their stats numbers, but Tres is a darned good player, maybe not best in league, but definitely one of the better ones we've ever had here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2019 10:14:58 GMT -8
I can't think of any players we've had that remind me of his play (gotta admit, I lived in Hawaii from '99-'12 and couldn't watch the Beavs then) since I started following them in the Shelton days. To say he can't generate a shot I find kind of amazing, he generates shots underneath, he generates foul shots, and he can hit from outside when needed but he seems to be more focused on driving. I cannot recall any player at OSU that could drive like him.. 2 on one, 3 on one, guys that are 3-4 inches taller, he either puts it in, draws a foul or finds an open guy more often than not. Fox's advanced stats had him as the number 2 ranked player in the Pac 12 last year, Hollinger currently has him at 4th in the Pac and 21st overall (couldn't find last year's stats). Now it's early yet this season and I frankly don't even know how they come up with their stats numbers, but Tres is a darned good player, maybe not best in league, but definitely one of the better ones we've ever had here. agreed. There are more ways to generate shots than jab step or crossover or straight bumrush to the iron using a speed advantage . Tres creates shots from different angles, play off him he will drain the open look, overplay him and he will step around you and finish with either hand, use spin, off the glass, and ALWAYS follows his shot, sometimes even "quick pitching" a shot when the defender isnt ready because his next move is to go right on by and put back his own miss. The guy is endlessly creative at scoring and absolutely torments defenders who think they are playing good D but Tres is still dropping 20 on them with ease. He has cleaned up his game too, and so far this season only average 2.2 turnovers a game, (last year averaged 3). That's fairly immaculate considering how much rock time he gets. The easy take is to say Tres doesn't generate shots because he isn't overpowering the defense for dunks. Anyone actually paying attention can see that TT is an absolutely dominating scorer.
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Post by beaverinohio on Nov 27, 2019 14:25:34 GMT -8
I’m a Tres fan and don’t really understand the pushback he gets about being very good player. But I wouldn’t consider him great at creating his own shot. I say that because to me the test of that is down by two, 30 seconds left and you can give the player the ball and he can create a good shot on his own. Now Tres is skilled at moving without ball and creating angles and such, so maybe it is just splitting hairs. So while he is skilled at getting his shots, I don’t think of him as overly skilled at creating his shot.
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Post by beavadelic on Nov 27, 2019 17:45:31 GMT -8
And for being the amazing defender we all remember GP II to be shouldnt he have more blocks per game and a LOT more steals per game than TT? And even with the crackdown on flopping i think Tres will still average one charge taken a game which i don't recall being a specialty of GP II. Let's remember that GP II was not a reliable shooter. That team made the tourney with a lot of help from a much younger TT. Not trying to demean GP II. Loved the guy's unselfish teamwork and demonic defense but if this team makes the tourney and i think they will, it will be much more because of TT than 2016 was about GP II. GPII and TT affect(ed) the game in different ways. I think they are the same caliber of player with TT taking it a notch higher due to consistently better offense and rebounding. But GPII was a guy that had excellent athleticism and truly put pressure on opposing players, offensively and defensively. he stretched the court in both ways. his ball handing, fast breaking, drives and importantly perimeter defenses were game changers. TT doesn't stretch the court like that. GPII was a big play guy. but TT affects the half court game, so to speak, and commands attention with the ball in his hand. He draws defenders and does a pretty good job of scoring or dishing. 4.4 apg so far, I am sure that will level off, but the kid dishes well and scores well. He isn't going full court and laying down a windmill dunk. He isn't teleporting from one spot to another to jump a pass and give us a monster jam. But on a possession to possession basis, TT influences the game to an equal, or possibly higher degree. I know that it’s mostly that we enjoy having conversations about our players, but I have never understood the obsession with who the GOAT is in any context. When that term gets thrown out there, some people get fiercely protective of their particular favorites, and seem to easily conclude that another person’s divergent opinion is a disrespecting of their guy. In truth, there is no way to satisfactorily gauge who would be the best of all time in a Beaver uniform. We probably couldn’t even establish an agreed upon best criteria used to determine that. Some would say it would be the national recognition that they garnered in their era. Others would strictly go by the career stats. Some would talk about their impact on the teams they played on and how well those teams did, others their athleticism or clutch performances. We have been blessed with a number of great players here through the years, and every one of them has relative weaknesses despite the wonderful players that they were. GP was only an average shooter who willed himself to being a great scorer (he was an incredible all-around player). AC was not a great shooter (he was a relentless rebounder, defender and leader). Lonnie Shelton was inconsistent - not always engaged, but when he was he was a freak athlete in his time with cat-like quickness and agility for his size who could just dominate people for stretches. Steve Johnson was an average defender at best and had limited range, but was magical in the low block. Charlie had slow feet (but was an unbelieveable walking fundamental manual and a fierce competitor). Corey Benjamin and Brent Barry were gifted players, Benjamin should have played another year of college ball and Bones was a late-bloomer. Lester Conner was a mediocre offensive player (he played smothering defense and had an uncanny court-sense). Mark Redford was one of the smoothest, best-shooting players around in his day, but he was a little too laidback at times and Ray Blume has a relentless motor but was a little erratic. Tres will go down as a stat-stuffing machine and has been a nice college player, even though I feel that he is a step slow for the next level. I can’t speak to players pre-70’s (I’ve heard Jim Jarvis and Mel Counts mentioned a lot, but never saw them play) but in my time, I feel that cases could be made for each one of the above to be the GOAT. If I were to weigh in on that debate, I’d go with GP, who absolutely dominated college basketball on both ends of the floor, led a couple of our best teams, and was incredibly clutch (he literally took charge and won us 9 games by my count in his senior season). He was SI national POY his senior year, went #2 in the NBA draft, had by far the best pro career of anyone to wear the OSU uniform, and ended up in the college hoops hall of fame as well as the NBA top 50 list all-time. By any stretch, I could not see any argument that Tres was the greatest Beav of all-time. I can, however, really appreciate the kid. He’s really skilled, has been a great and willing leader for us, and has been the “go to” guy since he got here. Just because he isn’t, IMO, obvious NBA material, it doesn’t detract from his impact and accomplishments in his career. I feel like we were blessed to have him here, and I would love to be wrong about the NBA thing. That level is just such a different level, filled with freaks of nature. My feeling is that debates like this don’t have to be all or nothing, where the guy is either revered or a bum. It’s OK to point out shortcomings, but it’s also important to acknowledge strengths and contributions, and to appreciate the kids who chose to play for OSU and left a significant mark on Beaver Nation.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Nov 27, 2019 18:11:17 GMT -8
Who, in any thread, has said Tres was GOAT?
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Post by beaverinohio on Nov 27, 2019 18:17:09 GMT -8
Beavadelic, couldn’t agree more on the whole Goat thing. I think it is a sign (and “word”) of the times. I don’t really remember all that much discussion about greatest of all times for anything when I was younger and certainly not so much that the phrase had to be shortened to Goat. When I was growing up a Bears fan enjoying the sweetness that was Walter Payton, I recall very little if any comparison of him and Gale Sayers. They were both incredible RBs that Bears’ fans were proud to call their own and there wasn’t this need to proclaim one better than the other.
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Post by beavadelic on Nov 28, 2019 17:20:40 GMT -8
Who, in any thread, has said Tres was GOAT? Maybe not in so many words, but I feel like it’s that kind of the gist of some conversations on here.
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Post by beaverbeliever71 on Nov 28, 2019 17:30:25 GMT -8
I could be wrong but I feel like a lot of the complaining about Tres comes simply from the fact that he is the coaches son..Maybe held to higher standard?. I don't know..I could be wrong. If he wasn't related to the head coach would people nit pick as much?
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Post by baseba1111 on Nov 28, 2019 17:51:35 GMT -8
Who, in any thread, has said Tres was GOAT? Maybe not in so many words, but I feel like it’s that kind of the gist of some conversations on here. Actually been called that, better than GP, top 5 of all time, sure fire NBA draft pick, etc. Almost every discussion isn't about TT being bad or negating his successes. That's how some posters want to turn the opposing views when TT's limitations in those respects are discussed. I've not read anything about being the coach's son being a negative. I've actually mentioned that he is one of the best recruits because of it and WT hasn't proven his recruiting chops other than coaches' kids. I've also heard from people close to the program that TT has had to endure a mercurial relationship with his Dad. All in all TT is a wonderful college player. He'll have great stats when he leaves. But, stats are not everything and certainly don't make him even the certain POY or NBA draft choice. But, when it comes to fans, especially those who have seen decades of OSU hoops, GOAT/MVP etc. is up for debate. As in every thread, some posters like to turn any words contrary to their own beliefs into whatever they want. Not one person in this board has called TT a average player, let alone bad. Have I and others pointed out limitations with regards to the claims of others? Sure. But, that's not even close to diminishing his play.
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Post by Judge Smails on Nov 28, 2019 20:31:14 GMT -8
Maybe not in so many words, but I feel like it’s that kind of the gist of some conversations on here. Actually been called that, better than GP, top 5 of all time, sure fire NBA draft pick, etc. Almost every discussion isn't about TT being bad or negating his successes. That's how some posters want to turn the opposing views when TT's limitations in those respects are discussed. I've not read anything about being the coach's son being a negative. I've actually mentioned that he is one of the best recruits because of it and WT hasn't proven his recruiting chops other than coaches' kids. I've also heard from people close to the program that TT has had to endure a mercurial relationship with his Dad. All in all TT is a wonderful college player. He'll have great stats when he leaves. But, stats are not everything and certainly don't make him even the certain POY or NBA draft choice. But, when it comes to fans, especially those who have seen decades of OSU hoops, GOAT/MVP etc. is up for debate. As in every thread, some posters like to turn any words contrary to their own beliefs into whatever they want. Not one person in this board has called TT a average player, let alone bad. Have I and others pointed out limitations with regards to the claims of others? Sure. But, that's not even close to diminishing his play. Show me one comment where anyone has said he is better than GP. I’ll save you some time...it hasn’t happened, so keep exaggerating. However, he is top 5 or top 10 at a minimum. And yes, I think he does get more criticism because he is the coaches’ son. I think he will be more appreciated after he is gone.
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Post by Judge Smails on Nov 28, 2019 20:32:52 GMT -8
Who, in any thread, has said Tres was GOAT? No one
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Nov 29, 2019 8:33:57 GMT -8
Seems to me there was a huge thread about this when someone said he was among the best ever here and someone in this thread said he wasn't even in the top 12 or more andcwas challenged to name 'em.
I'd figure the top 2 in my lifetime right off the top of my head would be Mel Counts and Gary Payton. After that there would be a group of kids filling out the top 10-12 and Tres would certainly be in the mix. Statistically he's right up there with anyone, and frankly talent-wise he's no Lonnie Shelton (who was freakishly physically talented) but he should be included in the next level group as well.
I gotta admit, when this conversation first came up I didn't realize the NBA is down to just 2 rounds of draft picks (when I first followed the NBA there were 19 rounds, I knew it shrunk but not to 2) but I still think he's got a decent shot at being drafted this time around.
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Post by bennyskid on Nov 29, 2019 9:51:02 GMT -8
Is there anyone who doesn't think he's somewhere between #2 and #12 all-time?
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Post by seastape on Nov 29, 2019 10:46:34 GMT -8
Just adding my two cents because I know that everyone is dying to hear my opinion as to Tres on the all-time list.
My all-time knowledge is limited as I only started caring about OSU in the spring of 1986...I of course have heard of past greats like Mel Counts, Steven Johnson, Charlie Sitton, Lester Connor, etc. and even saw AC Green play against Santa Clara in the early/mid-80s. Since 1986, no one is even in the same ballpark as GP. Not on either side of the ball, not in raw athleticism, not as a basketball player.
I don't think I've seen many, if any, guys (again, this is since 1986) I would put #2 behind GP and in front of Tres. Jose Ortiz is up there. Brent Barry was good and Scott Haskin turned into a very good (not great) college center by the time he was done. But really there is no one else in the last 30 years that ranks with Tres as #2 behind Payton. I know that the golden age of OSU basketball came before 1986 but just based on the fact that no one in the last 30 years can surpass Tres (except GP), I suspect that Tres can crack the OSU all-time top ten list.
Tres had an impact starting as a freshman and kept it up ever since. He has flirted with the Pac 12 player of the year award a couple times now. His impact was felt particularly keenly in 2016-2017 when he only played six games and OSU went 5-27 on the year. I have a bad, bad feeling that we are going to see the same impact next year. Hope the new guys on the team this year progress quickly...
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Post by baseba1111 on Nov 29, 2019 11:11:34 GMT -8
There are many, many OSU greats and most do not have the stats or TT, or even ST. But, no one would argue Stevie as one of the best of all time!? I don't think??
Opinions will vary all over the place and those who rest theirs on statistical data will rely heavily on those players of the 1990's to the present day. The earlier eras of OSU basketball were typically not as offensive oriented. I believe in the early to mid 80's OSU won Pac10 titles averaging 60 points/game. In those earlier eras there were many more complete players that were supperior athletes and defenders but not asked to score as much. Less scoring leads to less rebounds available and of course less assists recorded.
To me it doesn't matter as it is a discussion and not something concrete. My opinion, and that of many others, take leadership, defense, court presence, contribution with respect to the era of ball into consideration. Bias toward a larger picture, taking into account the changes in the game and the sustained successes in an era where basketall was a much different game.
Is TT belong in a larger grouping of OSU greats? Of course. Is he 'better than; Counts, Jarvis, Crandall, Gambee, White, Halbrook, Shelton, Nickleberry, Boyd, Lee, Johnson, Radford, Blume, Sitton, Green, Payton I and II, Connor, Ortiz?? IMHO TT would be low on this list when considering each player at the height of their career and the completeness of their game.
Some will argue yes. Some have no idea who any of these guys are. Many are AA (when there were far less AA awards given), some multiple when there was no national media hype machine and social media blitzes.
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