|
Post by baseba1111 on Aug 24, 2018 20:55:57 GMT -8
What does draft status have to do with anything? The draft is about raw physical potential, not being the best player. It is perfectly possible that TT is the best player in the Pac-12 and still not be drafted. Hmmmmm... no... pretty sure that's not true. I guess of you use the POY vote of Jorge Gutierrez (PG, Cal 2010-11)... he was undrafted. But, most don't feel he was the best player in the league by far (Isaiah Thomas, Derrick Williams, and Klay Thompson year). But, feel free to go back and find an example to back the claim that the league's best weren't drafted.
|
|
|
Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Aug 24, 2018 21:37:27 GMT -8
OSU was four 2-5 point losses from having the 3rd best league record in the Pac 12. It's not like OSU was a horrible team and a bad player had GREAT stats by default. The top player in the nation, who had the best NBA Efficiency stat rating in the Pac 12 was the kid from Arizona who went number one in the NBA draft. The kid with the next highest NBA Efficiency stat rating in the Pac 12.... Tres Tinkle. We did not have the 3rd best record. Obviously the 2nd best NBA efficiency rating was not good enough to even sniff draft possibilities. TT stats can say what ever you wish, but he was not the 2nd best player behind Aydon. And, he will not be in the top 5 of Pac12 players if you want to throw out "NBA" draft comments. Most likely not drafted period, stats or not. A couple things: I actually shortchanged the Beavs. They lost to Utah, ASU and UW by 2, Cal by 4. No 5 point losses there. If they had won those games they'd have had the 3rd best record in the league along with UCLA and Stanford. 6 players with lower NBA Efficiency stats in the Pac 12 WERE drafted. Tinkle never applied to the NBA Undergraduate Advisory Committee for feedback about his draft stock. OSU actually has had a couple players do just that over the last couple of years. You say he didn't even have a sniff at draft possibilities, and he won't be in the top 5 of Pac 12 players, I say not so fast...
|
|
|
Post by baseba1111 on Aug 25, 2018 5:05:42 GMT -8
We did not have the 3rd best record. Obviously the 2nd best NBA efficiency rating was not good enough to even sniff draft possibilities. TT stats can say what ever you wish, but he was not the 2nd best player behind Aydon. And, he will not be in the top 5 of Pac12 players if you want to throw out "NBA" draft comments. Most likely not drafted period, stats or not. A couple things: I actually shortchanged the Beavs. They lost to Utah, ASU and UW by 2, Cal by 4.Ā No 5 point losses there. If they had won those games they'd have had the 3rd best record in the league along with UCLA and Stanford. 6 players with lower NBA Efficiency stats in the Pac 12 WERE drafted.Ā Tinkle never applied to the NBA Undergraduate Advisory Committee for feedback about his draft stock.Ā OSU actually has had a couple players do just that over the last couple of years. You say he didn't even have a sniff at draft possibilities, and he won't be in the top 5 of Pac 12 players,Ā I say not so fast... A couple things: First, that's the same type of thinking that has kept certain coaches at OSU. Wait til they get their own players... give them 4-5 years... we're in close games/competitive... we're turning the corner... but, winning those games in a weaker Pac12 didn't happen. Second, if a player is truly draft ready they only need apply to the draft. Just writing to tell of their interest 60 plus days prior to the draft and fill out the application materials. No "feedback" needed. Hence, what actually 'was' and what could be are very different. One is historical fact, the other speculative opinion. OSU could be headed to the Final 4, Tres the #1 draft pick. I say, not so fast. š
|
|
|
Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Aug 25, 2018 7:13:19 GMT -8
So you are saying a student/player is obligated to apply for the draft if they even get a sniff from the pros?
Is it possible Tres and his dad had a pretty good idea he'd go 50-60th or fall just short of drafted and felt another year could get him a chance at sneaking into the first round? First rounders have a lot better chance at getting a few years in the league.
Tres is a better player than you give him credit for. I'm not claiming all-American, but then again if he made some second/third/honorable mention lists by the end of this year it wouldn't shock me either.
|
|
|
Post by bennyskid on Aug 25, 2018 7:36:33 GMT -8
What does draft status have to do with anything? The draft is about raw physical potential, not being the best player. It is perfectly possible that TT is the best player in the Pac-12 and still not be drafted. Hmmmmm... no... pretty sure that's not true. I guess of you use the POY vote of Jorge Gutierrez (PG, Cal 2010-11)... he was undrafted. But, most don't feel he was the best player in the league by far (Isaiah Thomas, Derrick Williams, and Klay Thompson year). But, feel free to go back and find an example to back the claim that the league's best weren't drafted.
Nice logic there. Gutierrez was POY, but he wasn't as good as the others because the others got drafted.
So was Dejounte Murray (second team all-conference) better than GPII (first team all-conference, def POY)? And Marquese Chris (honorable mention all-freshman)? Is there any doubt about which of those players you would pick first for your *college* team.
|
|
|
Post by baseba1111 on Aug 25, 2018 15:03:02 GMT -8
Hmmmmm... no... pretty sure that's not true. I guess of you use the POY vote of Jorge Gutierrez (PG, Cal 2010-11)... he was undrafted. But, most don't feel he was the best player in the league by far (Isaiah Thomas, Derrick Williams, and Klay Thompson year). But, feel free to go back and find an example to back the claim that the league's best weren't drafted.
Nice logic there.Ā Gutierrez was POY, but he wasn't as good as the others because the others got drafted.
So was Dejounte Murray (second team all-conference) better than GPII (first team all-conference, def POY)?Ā And Marquese Chris (honorable mention all-freshman)?Ā Is there any doubt about which of those players you would pick first for your *college* team.
LMAO... obviously he wasn't as good. I never brought up the topics of NBA or best of all time at OSU. I simply disagree with both suppositions and support my opinions. And, the post you quoted me on was in regards to "it's possible to be the best player in the Pac12 and not be drafted". So when those posters continually being up NBA anything... stats and Pac12 honors mean squat. TT was not and so far is not an NBA caliber player just because his stats were good and he was 1st All Pac12. In the case of GPII he was a great player here, but he was NOT the POY... so not sure where your logic is coming from? In terms of the NBA (which again was my discussion) their were 5 drafted that year. So no matter his voted on honors he was not "better" than 3 Fr, 1 So, and 1 Sr in the Pac12. And, not following your logic in trying to argue players drafted no matter their Pac12 honors being better? The NBA thought so, which was the point I was making. Back to my point, in 2016 Jakob Poeltl was the POY and drafted, hence continuing my argument the Pac12 POY is generally drafted.
|
|
|
Post by bigskybeaver on Aug 25, 2018 22:15:14 GMT -8
What does draft status have to do with anything? The draft is about raw physical potential, not being the best player. It is perfectly possible that TT is the best player in the Pac-12 and still not be drafted. Hmmmmm... no... pretty sure that's not true. I guess of you use the POY vote of Jorge Gutierrez (PG, Cal 2010-11)... he was undrafted. But, most don't feel he was the best player in the league by far (Isaiah Thomas, Derrick Williams, and Klay Thompson year). But, feel free to go back and find an example to back the claim that the league's best weren't drafted. A whole 2 years previous to that Jerome Randle was player of the year and went undrafted. A few before and after were second round picks and now play over seas or not at all. One of those being Joseph Young a couple years ago. Good college player but I never thought heād do anything in the nba. Tinkle could fall into that same category.
|
|
|
Post by sagebrush on Aug 26, 2018 12:30:23 GMT -8
Good teams figure out a way to win close games.
|
|
|
Post by baseba1111 on Aug 26, 2018 12:40:35 GMT -8
Hmmmmm... no... pretty sure that's not true. I guess of you use the POY vote of Jorge Gutierrez (PG, Cal 2010-11)... he was undrafted. But, most don't feel he was the best player in the league by far (Isaiah Thomas, Derrick Williams, and Klay Thompson year). But, feel free to go back and find an example to back the claim that the league's best weren't drafted. A whole 2 years previous to that Jerome Randle was player of the year and went undrafted. A few before and after were second round picks and now play over seas or not at all. One of those being Joseph Young a couple years ago. Good college player but I never thought heād do anything in the nba. Tinkle could fall into that same category. A great example of a very good Pac12/college player not NBA talented. Although I think he had some other issues coming out of Chicago and at Cal that gave folks pause. But, in terms of accolades... lead Cal to 1st conference title since 1960, Pac12 1st Team twice, Pac12 POY, at the time (not sure if passed) was Cal's all-time leader in pts/3 pts/FT %, and Class of 2017 Pac12 HOF.
|
|
|
Post by albanianbeav on Aug 26, 2018 13:14:45 GMT -8
My head is spinning a bit reading this thread. I lost track somewhere along the way on how you are judging best ever; does NBA potential matter or not? Regardless, it is always challenging to compare individuals in a team sport, because the team matters so much. I believe TT would actually be better if there were better players around him (primarily a pg), counter to what baseba1111 seems to be saying. If TT was able to play off the ball, relied on less to handle the ball and go 1on1, & played fewer minutes (I could go on), he would have better stats. He would be better, and we would be better, if he was not the focus of our offense. I personally think we could do it with a better offensive scheme, but with the scheme we have, we need better players around him to create.
Since all time greats are being discussed, I just want to toss the name Carson Cunningham out there. Behind GP, the best pg (that I have had the chance to see) to suit up for the Beavs. Just wish he had stayed all four years. And no, I never thought he had the toolset for the NBA.
|
|
|
Post by baseba1111 on Aug 26, 2018 13:46:25 GMT -8
My head is spinning a bit reading this thread. I lost track somewhere along the way on how you are judging best ever; does NBA potential matter or not? Regardless, it is always challenging to compare individuals in a team sport, because the team matters so much. I believe TT would actually be better if there were better players around him (primarily a pg), counter to what baseba1111 seems to be saying. If TT was able to play off the ball, relied on less to handle the ball and go 1on1, & played fewer minutes (I could go on), he would have better stats. He would be better, and we would be better, if he was not the focus of our offense. I personally think we could do it with a better offensive scheme, but with the scheme we have, we need better players around him to create. Since all time greats are being discussed, I just want to toss the name Carson Cunningham out there. Behind GP, the best pg (that I have had the chance to see) to suit up for the Beavs. Just wish he had stayed all four years. And no, I never thought he had the toolset for the NBA. Like all threads there are many components being discussed. I only counter the fact that I do not believe TT is an NBA type talent as some here posted about being drafted, leaving after this year etc. I also think it is way to premature to ever think of TT as an "all-time OSU great". Too many outstanding players (stats or not) on far better teams in a far better league than the current state of the Pac12. I am not a stat guy for the most part, but IF OSU had much better players I'd argue TT's stats would not be better. We'd have depth, he'd hopefully not be the best player on the team, his minutes would decrease, and scoring and rebounding would be spread around. As I said in previous posts, I'm hoping for a better "team" with depth, player development, and any kind of noticeable offensive schemes vs various defenses (maybe even a decent inbound play or two).
|
|
|
Post by albanianbeav on Aug 26, 2018 20:38:25 GMT -8
My head is spinning a bit reading this thread. I lost track somewhere along the way on how you are judging best ever; does NBA potential matter or not? Regardless, it is always challenging to compare individuals in a team sport, because the team matters so much. I believe TT would actually be better if there were better players around him (primarily a pg), counter to what baseba1111 seems to be saying. If TT was able to play off the ball, relied on less to handle the ball and go 1on1, & played fewer minutes (I could go on), he would have better stats. He would be better, and we would be better, if he was not the focus of our offense. I personally think we could do it with a better offensive scheme, but with the scheme we have, we need better players around him to create. Since all time greats are being discussed, I just want to toss the name Carson Cunningham out there. Behind GP, the best pg (that I have had the chance to see) to suit up for the Beavs. Just wish he had stayed all four years. And no, I never thought he had the toolset for the NBA. Like all threads there are many components being discussed. I only counter the fact that I do not believe TT is an NBA type talent as some here posted about being drafted, leaving after this year etc. I also think it is way to premature to ever think of TT as an "all-time OSU great". Too many outstanding players (stats or not) on far better teams in a far better league than the current state of the Pac12. I am not a stat guy for the most part, but IF OSU had much better players I'd argue TT's stats would not be better. We'd have depth, he'd hopefully not be the best player on the team, his minutes would decrease, and scoring and rebounding would be spread around. As I said in previous posts, I'm hoping for a better "team" with depth, player development, and any kind of noticeable offensive schemes vs various defenses (maybe even a decent inbound play or two). I agree it is too early on the all-time OSU stuff, and Iām willing to bet at best he is on some NBA watch lists. He can achieve both, but he has to develop. At a minimum he needs to become a better ball handler. Guys his size and athleticism do not make the NBA without good ball handling skills. I know he is working hard at getting better. I am rooting for him. I wonāt speculate any more about what a good point guard would do for this team and him individually. Assuming someone steps up as a true point guard this year, maybe once we get into the Pac-12 season one of us will recall this thread and we can poke each other with some stats.
|
|
|
Post by baseba1111 on Aug 27, 2018 0:12:33 GMT -8
Like all threads there are many components being discussed. I only counter the fact that I do not believe TT is an NBA type talent as some here posted about being drafted, leaving after this year etc. I also think it is way to premature to ever think of TT as an "all-time OSU great". Too many outstanding players (stats or not) on far better teams in a far better league than the current state of the Pac12. I am not a stat guy for the most part, but IF OSU had much better players I'd argue TT's stats would not be better. We'd have depth, he'd hopefully not be the best player on the team, his minutes would decrease, and scoring and rebounding would be spread around. As I said in previous posts, I'm hoping for a better "team" with depth, player development, and any kind of noticeable offensive schemes vs various defenses (maybe even a decent inbound play or two). I agree it is too early on the all-time OSU stuff, and Iām willing to bet at best he is on some NBA watch lists. He can achieve both, but he has to develop. At a minimum he needs to become a better ball handler. Guys his size and athleticism do not make the NBA without good ball handling skills. I know he is working hard at getting better. I am rooting for him. I wonāt speculate any more about what a good point guard would do for this team and him individually. Assuming someone steps up as a true point guard this year, maybe once we get into the Pac-12 season one of us will recall this thread and we can poke each other with some stats. Only one stat I'm interested in... Ws. There best be more than 7 Pac12 Ws this season... or... or...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2018 6:43:18 GMT -8
I agree it is too early on the all-time OSU stuff, and Iām willing to bet at best he is on some NBA watch lists. He can achieve both, but he has to develop. At a minimum he needs to become a better ball handler. Guys his size and athleticism do not make the NBA without good ball handling skills. I know he is working hard at getting better. I am rooting for him. I wonāt speculate any more about what a good point guard would do for this team and him individually. Assuming someone steps up as a true point guard this year, maybe once we get into the Pac-12 season one of us will recall this thread and we can poke each other with some stats. Only one stat I'm interested in... Ws. There best be more than 7 Pac12 Ws this season... or... or... Yeah beavs have not had a winning record in conference for 30 years. Of course that's not the fault of WT but That is a truly atrocious albatross that needs to be slayed STAT.
|
|
|
Post by atownbeaver on Aug 27, 2018 8:36:22 GMT -8
Can't go to his right, can't hit a three, plays out of control at times. Not sure how you become the best player in the Pac-12 with those attributes. Best player on OSU's team I agree. But not best in conference. He will make all-conference because he will get great stats playing on a .500 team with not many scoring options. 6th best scorer in the league last year 7th best RPG in the league last year 10th best APG in the league last year Even if he is the only guy on a garbage team, he is well rounded. Best in the league? who knows. He is undoubtedly top 10, and I would argue undoubtedly top 5.
|
|