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Post by jdogge on Jul 9, 2018 19:47:44 GMT -8
Sandy Koufax is probably not a good example. 1966 was his last season. He retired at 30-years-old. I'm sure arm trouble was a factor. Arm trouble was THE factor. Koufax had a series of arm problems and pitched for several years with them. Today, he probably would have been shut down and his elbow repaired. Some pitchers have an easy enough arm motion that they can throw lots of nasty pitches and heat and last for a long time, Nolan Ryan, and Roger Clemens as an example. One of the interesting cases is Tim Lincecum. Many of the "experts" were convinced that he would never be able to sustain his pitching effectiveness because his odd delivery would trash his arm. After he won some Cy Young awards and was a very effective pitcher for a good number of years, he injured his glove side hip instead. It appears that his body motion that allowed his small frame to throw that hard stressed the hip too much. A friend's son played with Cole Gillespie in high school. Cole a very good high school pitcher and shortstop. My friend told me that Cole's coach overused him in high school and he showed up at OS with arm problems. I don't think he ever pitched again. I hope that Kevin Abel is one of the lucky ones that can throw a lot of pitches without injuring his arm. Were you alive in the Koufax era? Because I was. As a Giants fan in the SFBA, we read everything that pertained to the hated bums. Overuse had nothing to do with Koufax's retirement. He suffered from Osteoarthritis from his mid-twenties. After each game he bathed his elbow in ice. Now, they would have scoped it. Instead, they treated with ice and steroid injects which, now they know, if given too frequently, causes more damage than it treats. |
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dK
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Post by dK on Jul 9, 2018 22:40:08 GMT -8
Arm trouble was THE factor. Koufax had a series of arm problems and pitched for several years with them. Today, he probably would have been shut down and his elbow repaired. Some pitchers have an easy enough arm motion that they can throw lots of nasty pitches and heat and last for a long time, Nolan Ryan, and Roger Clemens as an example. One of the interesting cases is Tim Lincecum. Many of the "experts" were convinced that he would never be able to sustain his pitching effectiveness because his odd delivery would trash his arm. After he won some Cy Young awards and was a very effective pitcher for a good number of years, he injured his glove side hip instead. It appears that his body motion that allowed his small frame to throw that hard stressed the hip too much. A friend's son played with Cole Gillespie in high school. Cole a very good high school pitcher and shortstop. My friend told me that Cole's coach overused him in high school and he showed up at OS with arm problems. I don't think he ever pitched again. I hope that Kevin Abel is one of the lucky ones that can throw a lot of pitches without injuring his arm. Were you alive in the Koufax era? Because I was. As a Giants fan in the SFBA, we read everything that pertained to the hated bums. Overuse had nothing to do with Koufax's retirement. He suffered from Osteoarthritis from his mid-twenties. After each game he bathed his elbow in ice. Now, they would have scoped it. Instead, they treated with ice and steroid injects which, now they know, if given too frequently, causes more damage than it treats. In 1955, I was lucky to see 5 future HOF play in my first MLB game at Milwaukee County Stadium. They were Hank Aaron, Eddie Matthews, Roy Campanella, Pee Wee Reese, and Jackie Robinson. Future HOF Spahn, Koufax, and Lasorda were also there but I didn't see them play. Don Newcombe pitched for the Brooklyn Dodgers. Don't remember who pitched for the Braves. I also attended the first game at Parker Stadium in November 1953. So yeah, I was alive then. You're reading things into what I wrote that aren't there. I was agreeing that arm problems were the reason Koufax's career was shortened. I didn't claim that they were from overuse. As I recall, a few years before he retired, Koufax felt something "let go" in his elbow. That was before he jammed his arm diving into a base that brought the arthritis diagnosis. He not only iced his elbow but took Cortisone and other drugs to continue pitching. Pretty sure he pitched a perfect game after that. I believe his arm problems were exacerbated by pitching injured and finally led to his somewhat early retirement. Edit: Forgot HOF Duke Snider in that game too. Might have forgotten someone else. Pretty remarkable to be at a regular season game with 6 HOF playing and 3 more on the bench. Granted, Lasorda was HOF as a manager. |
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Post by ochobeavo on Jul 10, 2018 8:12:31 GMT -8
Razorback fans crying pitcher overuse abuse crack me up. I was just looking at YouTube and noticed the 1965 World Series game 7 between the Twins and Dodgers came up. Sandy Koufax started on 2 days rest after pitching 9 innings the previous game. Koufax pitched all 9 innings of this game. a three hit shutout. He had pitched on 3 days rest his previous start. This was typical. I remember one game that was between the Braves (Spahn) and the Cards (Gibson) and both pitchers were pitching into the 12th. Gibson refused to be relieved, because Spahn was in his 40s and still in. All three are in the HOF. Now the bar is at a 100 pitches and 4 days rest and its not unusual to see them on the DL. When Bumgarner threw 68 pitches in game 7 of the 2014 WS on 2 days rest after throwing 117 in game 5 he was hailed as a hero (also threw 106 pitches game 1). |
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Post by 93beaver on Jul 10, 2018 8:53:09 GMT -8
I have been a long time visitor of Benny’s House. This is the first time I have decided to chime in. This is nothing but sour grapes from Hog fans. A quick google search reveals Arkansas pitcher Kacey Murphy throwing 74 pitches in a June 4 start in the 2017 Fayetteville Regional. Then he throws 81 pitches the next day (June 5) to attempt to close out the Regional. A quick check of many of these tweeters timelines reveals no such concern for their own players safety last year.
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Post by Werebeaver on Jul 10, 2018 9:02:36 GMT -8
Were you alive in the Koufax era? Because I was. As a Giants fan in the SFBA, we read everything that pertained to the hated bums. Overuse had nothing to do with Koufax's retirement. He suffered from Osteoarthritis from his mid-twenties. After each game he bathed his elbow in ice. Now, they would have scoped it. Instead, they treated with ice and steroid injects which, now they know, if given too frequently, causes more damage than it treats. I was lucky to see 5 future HOF play in my first MLB game at Milwaukee County Stadium. They were Hank Aaron, Eddie Matthews, Roy Campanella, Pee Wee Reese, and Jackie Robinson. Future HOF Spahn, Koufax, and Lasorda were also there but I didn't see them play. Don Newcombe pitched for the Brooklyn Dodgers. Don't remember who pitched for the Braves. I also attended the first game at Parker Stadium in November 1953. So yeah, I was alive then. You're reading things into what I wrote that aren't there. I was agreeing that arm problems were the reason Koufax's career was shortened. I didn't claim that they were from overuse. As I recall, a few years before he retired, Koufax felt something "let go" in his elbow. That was before he jammed his arm diving into a base that brought the arthritis diagnosis. He not only iced his elbow but took Cortisone and other drugs to continue pitching. Pretty sure he pitched a perfect game after that. I believe his arm problems were exacerbated by pitching injured and finally led to his somewhat early retirement. Edit: Forgot HOF Duke Snider in that game too. Might have forgotten someone else. Pretty remarkable to be at a regular season game with 6 HOF playing and 3 more on the bench. Granted, Lasorda was HOF as a manager. Gil Hodges? |
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dK
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Post by dK on Jul 10, 2018 9:20:46 GMT -8
He probably played 1st but isn't in the HOF yet. |
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Post by jdogge on Jul 10, 2018 12:46:02 GMT -8
Were you alive in the Koufax era? Because I was. As a Giants fan in the SFBA, we read everything that pertained to the hated bums. Overuse had nothing to do with Koufax's retirement. He suffered from Osteoarthritis from his mid-twenties. After each game he bathed his elbow in ice. Now, they would have scoped it. Instead, they treated with ice and steroid injects which, now they know, if given too frequently, causes more damage than it treats. In 1955, I was lucky to see 5 future HOF play in my first MLB game at Milwaukee County Stadium. They were Hank Aaron, Eddie Matthews, Roy Campanella, Pee Wee Reese, and Jackie Robinson. Future HOF Spahn, Koufax, and Lasorda were also there but I didn't see them play. Don Newcombe pitched for the Brooklyn Dodgers. Don't remember who pitched for the Braves. I also attended the first game at Parker Stadium in November 1953. So yeah, I was alive then. You're reading things into what I wrote that aren't there. I was agreeing that arm problems were the reason Koufax's career was shortened. I didn't claim that they were from overuse. As I recall, a few years before he retired, Koufax felt something "let go" in his elbow. That was before he jammed his arm diving into a base that brought the arthritis diagnosis. He not only iced his elbow but took Cortisone and other drugs to continue pitching. Pretty sure he pitched a perfect game after that. I believe his arm problems were exacerbated by pitching injured and finally led to his somewhat early retirement. Edit: Forgot HOF Duke Snider in that game too. Might have forgotten someone else. Pretty remarkable to be at a regular season game with 6 HOF playing and 3 more on the bench. Granted, Lasorda was HOF as a manager. That was when pitchers were put on the DL for a "sore" shoulder or "sore" elbow. A lot of careers were cut short because of that. But you look at that era, pitchers routinely had 20-30 complete games per year. But then, these guys were adults. The problem we are seeing is injuries due to overuse before they get to college -- playing year round while their bodies are still growing. |
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Post by nabeav on Jul 10, 2018 13:23:47 GMT -8
Totally off topic, but the conversation of first MLB game attended piqued my interest. The first game I saw in person was A's-Angels in Anaheim in 1988. Canseco and McGwire homered. I had always remembered it as the Angels scored late to win, but baseball-reference tells me that the late run just added insurance in a 6-4 victory. No Hall of Famers played.
I did see Pedro Martinez vs. Andy Pettitte at Fenway in 2000, though. Jeter, Bernie Williams, and Paul O'Neil all homered in a 3-0 win for the Yanks. Pedro is the only current HoF guy, but Jeter and Rivera (who got the save) will both be in, and you could make a case for Pettitte, Williams and Posada.
Roger Clemens was also on that Yankee team, as were non HoFers but certainly great players David Cone, Dwight Gooden, and El Duque Orlando Hernandez.
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lefty
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Post by lefty on Jul 10, 2018 14:29:12 GMT -8
He probably played 1st but isn't in the HOF yet. I am from that era and was never a Dodger fan, but always a Gil Hodges fan. He should be in in HOF as well as one of the premier 3rd baseman Ken Boyer. |
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Post by ochobeavo on Jul 10, 2018 14:29:37 GMT -8
Totally off topic, but the conversation of first MLB game attended piqued my interest. That would be a fascinating thread. So I'll add to it... First game: 1991 Dodgers vs Pirates. Game was completely boring. 2-0 Dodgers. The names involved were more interesting than the actual game: Pirates had skinny Barry Bonds, Bobby Bonilla. Dodgers had Eddie Murray and Gary Carter that season. Darryl Strawberry was on the team but injured (that sucked). Other highlights/lowlights in my MLB baseball watching career: 1993: head to Kingdome specifically to watch Randy Johnson pitch against White Sox. Pre-smart phones so we find out about an hour before game time that he's a late scratch and we get Chris Bosio instead - which is probably a worst case scenario. Got there early enough to see Bo Jackson take BP though and just do Bo Jackson things in general. 1997: Dodgers vs Mariners - we leave in top of 9, Dodgers up big. Griffey looks terrible so far, 0-4, 3Ks. Pretty bummed, seemed like he never did much when I saw him in person. We leave, he hits a 3 run bomb as we are in the parking lot. Confirmed: I'm an idiot. 1999: Saw McGwire take BP in SF. Like they say.. the sound off the bat is different w/certain guys (also #PEDs). Anyhow, we were probably 10th row in LF and realized we were sitting way too close, everything in BP was over us by a ton - probably for the best because a couple of those were missiles and I'd be missing teeth today. Mac goes 0-4, Bonds pinch hits, goes 0-1. |
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Post by mbabeav on Jul 10, 2018 14:53:23 GMT -8
Saw a lot of top players move through the Kingdome and Safeco, but I remember most watching the Twins play Detroit in Target field in Minneapolis in 2011. Twins didn't seem to be doing too well at the plate and then I realized that Verlander was pitching, duhhhhhh.
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Post by nabeav on Jul 10, 2018 15:16:18 GMT -8
Other highlights for me include seeing Bonds hit one upper deck in right at Coors Field in 2001 or 2002, a 14 inning marathon between the Angels and Cubs in 2003, and seeing Trout, Pujols, and Josh Hamilton hit homers at Wrigley Field in 2013.
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Post by jdogge on Jul 10, 2018 15:25:09 GMT -8
Well this has veered way off topic.
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Post by giantkillers83 on Jul 10, 2018 18:10:19 GMT -8
Pigs gotta bitch about something.... lol.
They should focus more on fielding drills and their own team.... imop.
And..... it’s not like they wouldn’t have thrown Knight another 25 innings if it would have meant anything’....
woo pig sooey.....
gawd I got tired of that there.
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Post by Werebeaver on Jul 10, 2018 18:15:35 GMT -8
Totally off topic, but the conversation of first MLB game attended piqued my interest. The first game I saw in person was A's-Angels in Anaheim in 1988. Canseco and McGwire homered. I had always remembered it as the Angels scored late to win, but baseball-reference tells me that the late run just added insurance in a 6-4 victory. No Hall of Famers played. I did see Pedro Martinez vs. Andy Pettitte at Fenway in 2000, though. Jeter, Bernie Williams, and Paul O'Neil all homered in a 3-0 win for the Yanks. Pedro is the only current HoF guy, but Jeter and Rivera (who got the save) will both be in, and you could make a case for Pettitte, Williams and Posada. Roger Clemens was also on that Yankee team, as were non HoFers but certainly great players David Cone, Dwight Gooden, and El Duque Orlando Hernandez. My grandfather took me to see the 1970 World Champion Oakland A's vs Brewers (first season after moving from Seattle) at Oakland Coliseum. Reggie Jackson still with the A's. Sal Bando and Bert Campaneris hit home runs in the first. Rollie Fingers actually started and got the W. www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=197006212OAKDidn't know how special it was at the time. |
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