lefty
Freshman
Posts: 430
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Post by lefty on Jul 9, 2018 11:27:45 GMT -8
Razorback fans crying pitcher overuse abuse crack me up. I was just looking at YouTube and noticed the 1965 World Series game 7 between the Twins and Dodgers came up. Sandy Koufax started on 2 days rest after pitching 9 innings the previous game. Koufax pitched all 9 innings of this game. a three hit shutout. He had pitched on 3 days rest his previous start. This was typical. I remember one game that was between the Braves (Spahn) and the Cards (Gibson) and both pitchers were pitching into the 12th. Gibson refused to be relieved, because Spahn was in his 40s and still in. All three are in the HOF. Now the bar is at a 100 pitches and 4 days rest and its not unusual to see them on the DL.
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Post by ag87 on Jul 9, 2018 11:33:08 GMT -8
Sandy Koufax is probably not a good example. 1966 was his last season. He retired at 30-years-old. I'm sure arm trouble was a factor.
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Post by jdogge on Jul 9, 2018 12:31:06 GMT -8
Sandy Koufax is probably not a good example. 1966 was his last season. He retired at 30-years-old. I'm sure arm trouble was a factor. He retired because of osteoarthritis. Bad genes and wear and tear are the culprits. But, back then, pitchers routinely pitched 300-350 innings every year. As we everything, baseball became so specialized. Look at states for teams in the 60s. You'll see ten, maybe twelve pitchers per year made it to the big dance. Now? 20-25 is routine. Of course, also back then each team had extensive minor league systems: Rookie, D-level, C, B, A, AA, AAA. Now, Rookie, A-short season, A, AA, AAA. Why? Colleges and universities do the bulk of the training. Baseball training costs are now heavily subsidized by the tax payer.
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dK
Freshman
Posts: 393
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Post by dK on Jul 9, 2018 12:36:55 GMT -8
Sandy Koufax is probably not a good example. 1966 was his last season. He retired at 30-years-old. I'm sure arm trouble was a factor. Arm trouble was THE factor. Koufax had a series of arm problems and pitched for several years with them. Today, he probably would have been shut down and his elbow repaired. Some pitchers have an easy enough arm motion that they can throw lots of nasty pitches and heat and last for a long time, Nolan Ryan, and Roger Clemens as an example. One of the interesting cases is Tim Lincecum. Many of the "experts" were convinced that he would never be able to sustain his pitching effectiveness because his odd delivery would trash his arm. After he won some Cy Young awards and was a very effective pitcher for a good number of years, he injured his glove side hip instead. It appears that his body motion that allowed his small frame to throw that hard stressed the hip too much. A friend's son played with Cole Gillespie in high school. Cole a very good high school pitcher and shortstop. My friend told me that Cole's coach overused him in high school and he showed up at OS with arm problems. I don't think he ever pitched again. I hope that Kevin Abel is one of the lucky ones that can throw a lot of pitches without injuring his arm.
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dK
Freshman
Posts: 393
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Post by dK on Jul 9, 2018 12:45:04 GMT -8
Razorback fans crying pitcher overuse abuse crack me up. I was just looking at YouTube and noticed the 1965 World Series game 7 between the Twins and Dodgers came up. Sandy Koufax started on 2 days rest after pitching 9 innings the previous game. Koufax pitched all 9 innings of this game. a three hit shutout. He had pitched on 3 days rest his previous start. This was typical. I remember one game that was between the Braves (Spahn) and the Cards (Gibson) and both pitchers were pitching into the 12th. Gibson refused to be relieved, because Spahn was in his 40s and still in. All three are in the HOF. Now the bar is at a 100 pitches and 4 days rest and its not unusual to see them on the DL. Tarhole fans were chirping the same thing about Nickerson and Gundy after the 06 season, complaining that Casey was prone to abusing his pitchers. As I recall the decisions on who pitched when and how much rested primarily with Spencer not Casey. Every fan base, including ours find things to gripe about especially when they lose the big one.
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Post by Werebeaver on Jul 9, 2018 13:07:43 GMT -8
Razorback fans crying pitcher overuse abuse crack me up. I was just looking at YouTube and noticed the 1965 World Series game 7 between the Twins and Dodgers came up. Sandy Koufax started on 2 days rest after pitching 9 innings the previous game. Koufax pitched all 9 innings of this game. a three hit shutout. He had pitched on 3 days rest his previous start. This was typical. I remember one game that was between the Braves (Spahn) and the Cards (Gibson) and both pitchers were pitching into the 12th. Gibson refused to be relieved, because Spahn was in his 40s and still in. All three are in the HOF. Now the bar is at a 100 pitches and 4 days rest and its not unusual to see them on the DL. I’ve read a lot on the Arkansas message boards and I’ve honestly not seen much carping about “overuse” of Abel. Just lamenting his brilliant stuff and that they weren’t able to hit him.
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Post by mbabeav on Jul 9, 2018 13:47:59 GMT -8
Sandy Koufax is probably not a good example. 1966 was his last season. He retired at 30-years-old. I'm sure arm trouble was a factor. Arm trouble was THE factor. Koufax had a series of arm problems and pitched for several years with them. Today, he probably would have been shut down and his elbow repaired. Some pitchers have an easy enough arm motion that they can throw lots of nasty pitches and heat and last for a long time, Nolan Ryan, and Roger Clemens as an example. One of the interesting cases is Tim Lincecum. Many of the "experts" were convinced that he would never be able to sustain his pitching effectiveness because his odd delivery would trash his arm. After he won some Cy Young awards and was a very effective pitcher for a good number of years, he injured his glove side hip instead. It appears that his body motion that allowed his small frame to throw that hard stressed the hip too much. A friend's son played with Cole Gillespie in high school. Cole a very good high school pitcher and shortstop. My friend told me that Cole's coach overused him in high school and he showed up at OS with arm problems. I don't think he ever pitched again. I hope that Kevin Abel is one of the lucky ones that can throw a lot of pitches without injuring his arm. Kevin pitched the equivalent of about 18 innings worth of pitches (good for a strike out pitcher) during the 8 games of the CWS - he just had 4 appearances, two in relief (for a total of 5.1 innings). He was extremely efficient - I think Jonah racked up about 100 more pitches than Kevin did.
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Post by greshambeaver on Jul 9, 2018 14:00:15 GMT -8
Sandy Koufax is probably not a good example. 1966 was his last season. He retired at 30-years-old. I'm sure arm trouble was a factor. Sandy's situation is not usual. He retired at 32 with an inflamed elbow from arthritis as I remember. I really doubt overuse was the problem. Pitching mechanics at a young age and no use in the minor leagues because of the bonus baby rule of the day. I actually think more use would have given Sandy a longer and maybe better career, as it was he was most likely the best pitcher in MLB history in his prime. I once saw him go 13 innings against the Cubs and win the game 1-0 on what was a 2 hitter I think. When the Dodgers were thinking about trading him in the late 50's early 60's, maybe it was 1960, don't remember for sure. Willie Mays was asked what he thought of the rumors that Koufax was going to be traded. Mays stated, "If true I hope it's to the Giants, I can't touch that guy". Simply the greatest pitcher of all time in my opinion. Gibson may have been number 2...
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Jul 9, 2018 14:01:29 GMT -8
Razorback fans crying pitcher overuse abuse crack me up. I was just looking at YouTube and noticed the 1965 World Series game 7 between the Twins and Dodgers came up. Sandy Koufax started on 2 days rest after pitching 9 innings the previous game. Koufax pitched all 9 innings of this game. a three hit shutout. He had pitched on 3 days rest his previous start. This was typical. I remember one game that was between the Braves (Spahn) and the Cards (Gibson) and both pitchers were pitching into the 12th. Gibson refused to be relieved, because Spahn was in his 40s and still in. All three are in the HOF. Now the bar is at a 100 pitches and 4 days rest and its not unusual to see them on the DL. Koko the gorilla knew sign language, therefore probably all gorillas do. I'm not sure if pulling out a 53 year old example extrapolates into countering the overuse arguments.
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Post by OSUprof on Jul 9, 2018 14:36:02 GMT -8
Reminds me of the complaints that I heard from Notre Dame fans in the minutes immediately following the Fiesta Bowl. They were saying things to me like, "your team is undisciplined and out of control".
My reply was that if the score were reversed, would you be fine with Notre Dame being undisciplined and out of control? They laughed and said that they would gladly take that.
I suspect that if Arkansas had the pitching to do what Abel did, then they would have used it. Arkansas fans and their sycophants in the SEC centric baseball media would have praised their coaching staff for the masterful strategy.
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Post by gobeavs101 on Jul 9, 2018 15:05:59 GMT -8
Anyone that just looks at pitch count knows nothing about the topic and is your typical "arm chair manager". It has to do with a lot of things, such as motion/delivery, type of pitches thrown (off speed vs. fastball), ease of appearance/number of pitches thrown/stressful game situations, weather conditions, etc. All of those were in Kevin's favor. This topic is just stupid. But, let those Arkansas fans discuss it rather than just accept that they "coug'd it" and move on.
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lefty
Freshman
Posts: 430
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Post by lefty on Jul 9, 2018 16:26:54 GMT -8
Razorback fans crying pitcher overuse abuse crack me up. I was just looking at YouTube and noticed the 1965 World Series game 7 between the Twins and Dodgers came up. Sandy Koufax started on 2 days rest after pitching 9 innings the previous game. Koufax pitched all 9 innings of this game. a three hit shutout. He had pitched on 3 days rest his previous start. This was typical. I remember one game that was between the Braves (Spahn) and the Cards (Gibson) and both pitchers were pitching into the 12th. Gibson refused to be relieved, because Spahn was in his 40s and still in. All three are in the HOF. Now the bar is at a 100 pitches and 4 days rest and its not unusual to see them on the DL. Koko the gorilla knew sign language, therefore probably all gorillas do. I'm not sure if pulling out a 53 year old example extrapolates into countering the overuse arguments.
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lefty
Freshman
Posts: 430
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Post by lefty on Jul 9, 2018 16:53:28 GMT -8
Point being is that today's pitchers are in better condition through coaching and training and have just if not more arm problems then when pitchers started every 4th game and amassed very high number of innings. I think it is very pertinent. Arms are still the same (2 per body) but how many pitchers throw a complete game much less go extra innings? There are more injuries to pitcher's arms now. How many have Tommy John Surgery. Its not unusual for a pitcher have more than one. I think it was Dodger pitcher Mike Marshall who received a PHD in Kinesiology and pitched 200 plus innings in relief (almost everyday) stated that it wasn't overuse that caused arm problems, but their pitching form.
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Post by spudbeaver on Jul 9, 2018 17:20:58 GMT -8
Razorback fans crying pitcher overuse abuse crack me up. I was just looking at YouTube and noticed the 1965 World Series game 7 between the Twins and Dodgers came up. Sandy Koufax started on 2 days rest after pitching 9 innings the previous game. Koufax pitched all 9 innings of this game. a three hit shutout. He had pitched on 3 days rest his previous start. This was typical. I remember one game that was between the Braves (Spahn) and the Cards (Gibson) and both pitchers were pitching into the 12th. Gibson refused to be relieved, because Spahn was in his 40s and still in. All three are in the HOF. Now the bar is at a 100 pitches and 4 days rest and its not unusual to see them on the DL. Koko the gorilla knew sign language, therefore probably all gorillas do. I'm not sure if pulling out a 53 year old example extrapolates into countering the overuse arguments. pbs.twimg.com/media/DcmyTgAX4AMuHFS.jpg
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Post by greshambeaver on Jul 9, 2018 18:43:55 GMT -8
Reminds me of the complaints that I heard from Notre Dame fans in the minutes immediately following the Fiesta Bowl. They were saying things to me like, "your team is undisciplined and out of control".
My reply was that if the score were reversed, would you be fine with Notre Dame being undisciplined and out of control? They laughed and said that they would gladly take that.
I suspect that if Arkansas had the pitching to do what Abel did, then they would have used it. Arkansas fans and their sycophants in the SEC centric baseball media would have praised their coaching staff for the masterful strategy.
Huh? I see no correlation whatsoever!
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