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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Feb 11, 2019 12:42:03 GMT -8
I have always heard the opposite about Hopkins, that he expressed early interest and then pulled out before ever being offered the job.
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Post by green85 on Feb 11, 2019 12:44:00 GMT -8
I'm not afraid to admit that I liked Craig Robinson. It's too bad that he could not have led OSU to more wins in his time here but he did some good things for our program during his tenure.
I like Wayne Tinkle too - like Robinson, he's a good man and has done some good things for our program. Let's leave the CBI out of the conversation. What's disappointing for most fans is that Tinkle is only 32-51 through 83 conference games at OSU.
Craig Robinson was 29-54 through his first 83 conference games at OSU.
Bottom line: Tinkle has won 3 more conference games than Robinson over nearly 5 seasons in a conference that's arguably weaker now. Robinson was dismissed after 6 seasons. Tinkle has a chance to get to the NIT this year, and maybe next with the current talent. Anything short of those 2 appearances gives pretty bad optics for the program in retaining one coach over the other past a 6th season.
Not sure how to "compare" Tinkle and Robinson. Your conclusion about keeping Tinkle past 6 years hits on the assessment in another post in this thread - that next year is Tinkle's make-or-break measuring stick. I think retaining Tinkle would be good. If the 2019 - 20 season results (wins) and play on the court (competitiveness) reaches the current level or higher, I think Beaver fans will be satisfied that Tinkle is the right coach.
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Post by atownbeaver on Feb 11, 2019 13:13:46 GMT -8
I hate to be THAT guy... but we are 7-4 when we should of been 8-3. losing by 23 at home to 11-9 mediocre Stanford is why WT keeps finding his seat warm, when otherwise he is having a great year by our standards. I like to try and be positive, but it is these missed opportunities against inferior teams that keep taking the luster off this season. We should be a minimum of +3 games this season from where we are right now. It is aggravating. Frankly, as frustrating as it is, I'm glad the team is having missed opportunities versus no opportunities. As far as total wins go, if this team wins only one or two more, then goes on a tear in the CBI and finishes with 21 or 22 wins, I'll consider it somewhat of a disappointment. I can't say I'd prefer to win 3 or 4 more and lose in the first round of the NIT, but it kinda is a bigger achievement getting there. Fighting to be in the top 2-4 of a 12 conference team is not altogether a bad thing considering the last 26/28 years. It's just frustrating when there are missed opportunities. One thing I will say, when you look at Coach Miller's record and Baseball coach Riley's record, it took 9-10 years each before they were consistently fighting for the top spot in the conference. I can't guarantee continuity is a guarantee of future success, but I'd hate to see another coaching search unless the program just tanks.I agree with the last (though you mean Casey right?). As long as the trajectory continues to be upward, the difference between good teams and great teams is often team culture. It can take time to build a culture at a program. If you can consistently be this upper teens, upper half in the conference finishing team, you are the team that starts landing in some more prime time telecasts and recruits start looking at more. It is hard to snap your fingers and get talent in overnight. Recruiting has been pretty up and down with WT, but we have steadily been working towards being an overall better team. It will be key to see how we look without Stevie (and maybe Tres) this next year.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Feb 11, 2019 13:19:04 GMT -8
Oops... Casey. I'm still remembering the previous coach, Jack Riley. I normally don't consider myself to be google challenged, but I'm having a tough time finding Riley's season by season record. It'd be interesting to compare his first ten here with his last 12 and see if there was more consistent success later on.
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2ndGenBeaver
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on Feb 11, 2019 22:21:13 GMT -8
WT will be the coach next year, so comparing “accomplishments” seems premature. Also, this team is so erratic it is premature trying to use this year in any analysis. We could win out or lose out. Next year will be WTs make or break year. I’m hoping new and old players not related to the coaches get a chance to take over the team. This team needs a floor leader and the presence of the coaches’ kids seems to thwart anyone else from taking control. There is a lot of emphasis, at least through team sponsored social media, on getting Stevie a three-point record and keeping TTs double-digit scoring streak alive. I hope we have a head strong leader in next year’s class that can distribute the ball with the goal of winning games and not pursuing individual accolades. I liked CR. Doesn't matter - he is gone. I want to like WT. He seems to be an upstanding person, seems to know how to coach, has good relationships with the players etc. etc. But you nailed it on a few counts - there is no good explanation for how erratic this team is......there is enough veteran presence on this team to smooth out the bumps, but it has never happened. We don't get consistent effort, and this year alone there are several Ls that could have been Ws if the team had delivered the same effort as we would see a game earlier or a game later. Maddening. There is also no reason for a team laden with smart college kids to not find a leader on the court. Or a close approximation to that. The coaches and players ought to realize that they need one......I think you nailed it with "the presence of the coaches kids seems to thwart anyone else from taking control". And the coaches kids don't seem intent on exerting much control either. I don't get it. Win 5 of the next 8 or 9 and we have a 20 win season on our hands. While I would love to see that happen, the erratic and thwarting behaviors don't seem to be subsiding enough to make that happen. Maddening and perplexing. Feels like a year of lost opportunity - kind of like when we had 2 NBA lottery picks and couldn't get a winning season. This year we have arguably talented, experienced players in a very weak Pac-12...... Go Beavers!
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Feb 11, 2019 23:12:28 GMT -8
Thing is, probably every fanbase in the league, with the exception of Washington and maybe Cal, is saying "our team is so erratic" and pulling their hair out in frustration because their teams are leaving wins on the table.
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bill82
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Post by bill82 on Feb 12, 2019 0:42:04 GMT -8
OSU's finish in Pac-12 and number of Pac-12 berths in NCAA. It is a small sample, but I don't see much difference between Tinkle and Robinson.
Conference finish/Berths
Robinson
2009: 8th/6 (Pac-10) 2010: 5th/2 (Pac-10) 2011: 9th/4 (Pac-10) 2012: 8th/2 2013: 11th/5 2014: 10th/6
Tinkle
2015: 7th/4 2016: 6th/7* 2017: 12th/4 2018: 10th/3 2019: [2nd-9th]/[1-2]
*NCAA *berth* (correction)
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Post by Judge Smails on Feb 12, 2019 5:57:45 GMT -8
OSU's finish in Pac-12 and number of Pac-12 berths in NCAA. It is a small sample, but I don't see much difference between Tinkle and Robinson. Conference finish/Berths Robinson 2009: 8th/6 (Pac-10) 2010: 5th/2 (Pac-10) 2011: 9th/4 (Pac-10) 2012: 8th/2 2013: 11th/5 2014: 10th/6 Tinkle 2015: 7th/4 2016: 6th/7* 2017: 12th/4 2018: 10th/3 2019: [2nd-9th]/[1-2] *NCAA birth Except Tinkle had a baby in 2016?
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Post by beaverinohio on Feb 12, 2019 7:56:54 GMT -8
I'm not sure why this discussion comparing CR and WT persists. I don't really care whether WT has had more success than CR or vice versa. It comes down to whether you're happy with WT's tenure at OSU. And if the only reason that you are is because you think he's done better than CR is that really a good enough reason to keep WT around. I'm not advocating for moving on from WT as I personally think barring a total collapse he has earned at least one more year with this team's performance. That said, I think the team has under performed and should have a better record given the big 3 and some solid pieces surrounding them. It is disappointing that at this point they look like a long shot to make NCAA tourney and not a shoe in to make NIT.
I personally think Oregon St. is a relatively difficult place to win (at least consistently), but it isn't impossible. It's a PAC 12 school and there are plenty of good coaches who would be interested in the job. Are there any guarantees that if WT is replaced the new coach will have better luck? No. But there never is. And if the team finishes in 7th place this year (not saying they will and very hopefully they will finish much higher) and finishes in a similar position under WT next year, then it's probably time to make a change and strive for better. Unless Beaver Nation is happy with relative mediocrity with an occasional good year for its basketball program.
All that said, get a win this weekend Beavs.
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beaverstever
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Post by beaverstever on Feb 12, 2019 11:20:32 GMT -8
For some perspective here, OSU hasn't had a winning Pac-12 season since 1990, and there have been some very weak conferences during that time as well. Even getting 3 more conference wins (which quite honestly looks like an uphill battle at this point) would be an accomplishment of epic proportions at OSU in this millennium. Reminder that we've only had two non-losing conference season since GP graduated, and WT owns one of those along with Jimmy. Sorry, but the seat isn't hot for WT. He could lose ever game the rest of the season and I still can't see a change being made. IMO, he's far more likely to move on himself in a year or two than be fired. www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/oregon-state/ Ah yes the old "he sucks less than our previous sucky coaches" argument. Hopefully Scott Barnes doesn't buy that argument, and I highly doubt he does. Neither of us know how warm or not Tinkle's seat is. Given his own, his kids', and the MBB PR staff's ongoing defensiveness against any all and criticism, I'm guessing he is feeling some heat. Edit: I used the word "suck" as an exaggeration, I don't think Tinkle sucks as a coach, I in fact think he's decidedly average. Being average in the Pac-12 is an upgrade over our recent history. That's important for this topic, because Barnes has to sell (find money) to pay for a buyout if he wants to make a change. He also has to be careful about terminating another coach at a place that already has a reputation as a coaches graveyard - part of his job is not to make the position any less attractive in whatever action he takes. Yes, I don't have any insight into what Barnes is thinking, but logically I can't imagine that the reality is he's at risk anytime soon - justified or not. Being average can be a curse; not bad enough to blow it up, not good enough to generate any excitement.
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Post by mbabeav on Feb 12, 2019 11:43:52 GMT -8
OK - here's another OSU coach's first 5 years - not spectacular, not horrific (but then again, he didn't have to deal with the collapse of a team one season due to massive injuries/shallow bench), but he had a much easier time recruiting because OSU had a pretty darned good history of basketball up to that point, rather than the sadness of most of the post-1990 era.
1970–71 Oregon State 12–14 4–10 6th 1971–72 Oregon State 18–10 9–5 3rd 1972–73 Oregon State 15–11 6–8 5th 1973–74 Oregon State 13–13 6–8 5th 1974–75 Oregon State 19–12 10–4 2nd NCAA Division I Second Round
I don't see a single 20 win season there. Different era, different systems, UCLA and the 7 dwarfs? I don't know about weak conference; a lot of NBA talent playing in the Pac-12 these days. Is it all coaching?
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 13, 2019 14:35:07 GMT -8
WT will be the coach next year, so comparing “accomplishments” seems premature. Also, this team is so erratic it is premature trying to use this year in any analysis. We could win out or lose out. Next year will be WTs make or break year. I’m hoping new and old players not related to the coaches get a chance to take over the team. This team needs a floor leader and the presence of the coaches’ kids seems to thwart anyone else from taking control. There is a lot of emphasis, at least through team sponsored social media, on getting Stevie a three-point record and keeping TTs double-digit scoring streak alive. I hope we have a head strong leader in next year’s class that can distribute the ball with the goal of winning games and not pursuing individual accolades. I liked CR. Doesn't matter - he is gone. I want to like WT. He seems to be an upstanding person, seems to know how to coach, has good relationships with the players etc. etc. But you nailed it on a few counts - there is no good explanation for how erratic this team is......there is enough veteran presence on this team to smooth out the bumps, but it has never happened. We don't get consistent effort, and this year alone there are several Ls that could have been Ws if the team had delivered the same effort as we would see a game earlier or a game later. Maddening. There is also no reason for a team laden with smart college kids to not find a leader on the court. Or a close approximation to that. The coaches and players ought to realize that they need one......I think you nailed it with "the presence of the coaches kids seems to thwart anyone else from taking control". And the coaches kids don't seem intent on exerting much control either. I don't get it. Win 5 of the next 8 or 9 and we have a 20 win season on our hands. While I would love to see that happen, the erratic and thwarting behaviors don't seem to be subsiding enough to make that happen. Maddening and perplexing. Feels like a year of lost opportunity - kind of like when we had 2 NBA lottery picks and couldn't get a winning season. This year we have arguably talented, experienced players in a very weak Pac-12...... Go Beavers! The analytics this year point to about the same thing. Oregon State is 4th in blocking in the country but rank 291st in steals. The Beavers are beasts in the paint on both ends of the floor but are one of the worst outside shooting and perimeter defense teams in the country. That is to say that Oregon State is generally living and dying on the outside shot. When the outside shots fall for the Beavers and not for the opponent, things go well. When the reverse is true, things go poorly. Oregon State is 5-0 (UC-Riverside 40.0%, Missouri State 57.1%, Pepperdine 42.1%, USC 40.9%, and Washington State 37.0%), when shooting 37% or better from beyond the ark. Oregon State's worst shooting games: 1. Stanford 8.3% 2. Kent State 17.6% 3. Arizona 23.5% 4. Long Beach State 23.8% (Closest non-conference win.) 5. Missouri 25.0%
Oregon State is 4-0 (Old Dominion 28.0%, Long Beach State 25.0%, Central Connecticut 23.1%, and Utah 27.3%), when holding an opponent to 29% or worse from beyond the ark.
Oregon State's opponents' best shooting games: 1. Saint Louis 66.7% (Unreal.) 2. Stanford 53.3% (Worst-shooting and second best opponent shooting. This is how you lose by 23 at home.) 3. Arizona 48.1% (Third worst-shooting and third best opponent shooting. This is how you lose by 11 to a middling Pac-12 opponent.) 4. Kent State 47.6% (Second worst-shooting and fourth best opponent shooting. This is how you lose by 3 to an over-matched opponent.) 5. Missouri State 46.2% (Oregon State's best shooting game wiped it out.)
Oregon State is shooting 35.2% from beyond the ark in wins and 26.9% in losses. Contrariwise, Oregon State's opponents are shooting 33.7% from beyond the ark in wins and 44.4% in losses. The Beavers are shooting 1.5% better than their opponents in wins and 17.5% worse in losses.
The Beavers are 9-0, when outshooting their opponent, and 6-8 when failing to do so. The Beavers are 14-1 (only loss Washington), when outshooting or shooting within 4% of their opponents, and 1-7 (only win Washington State) when failing to do so.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 13, 2019 14:40:49 GMT -8
For some perspective here, OSU hasn't had a winning Pac-12 season since 1990, and there have been some very weak conferences during that time as well. Even getting 3 more conference wins (which quite honestly looks like an uphill battle at this point) would be an accomplishment of epic proportions at OSU in this millennium. Reminder that we've only had two non-losing conference season since GP graduated, and WT owns one of those along with Jimmy. Sorry, but the seat isn't hot for WT. He could lose ever game the rest of the season and I still can't see a change being made. IMO, he's far more likely to move on himself in a year or two than be fired. www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/oregon-state/ Ah yes the old "he sucks less than our previous sucky coaches" argument. Hopefully Scott Barnes doesn't buy that argument, and I highly doubt he does. Neither of us know how warm or not Tinkle's seat is. Given his own, his kids', and the MBB PR staff's ongoing defensiveness against any all and criticism, I'm guessing he is feeling some heat. Edit: I used the word "suck" as an exaggeration, I don't think Tinkle sucks as a coach, I in fact think he's decidedly average. Yes, hopefully, Scott Barnes can hire a head basketball coach. We all know how well that turned out last time: If Tinkle has to go, and I think that that is lunacy at this point. But if Tinkle has to go, you have to make sure that Barnes has no part in the hiring process in any capacity.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 13, 2019 14:45:05 GMT -8
I'm not afraid to admit that I liked Craig Robinson. It's too bad that he could not have led OSU to more wins in his time here but he did some good things for our program during his tenure.
I like Wayne Tinkle too - like Robinson, he's a good man and has done some good things for our program. Let's leave the CBI out of the conversation. What's disappointing for most fans is that Tinkle is only 32-51 through 83 conference games at OSU.
Craig Robinson was 29-54 through his first 83 conference games at OSU.
Bottom line: Tinkle has won 3 more conference games than Robinson over nearly 5 seasons in a conference that's arguably weaker now. Robinson was dismissed after 6 seasons. Tinkle has a chance to get to the NIT this year, and maybe next with the current talent. Anything short of those 2 appearances gives pretty bad optics for the program in retaining one coach over the other past a 6th season. Robinson completely lost the team. He had to be fired. If BDC had fired him, when he should have instead of waiting until it became stupidly over-obvious, he may have been able to save more of the team for Tinkle. Tinkle going 17-14 the following season was truly an amazing feat.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 13, 2019 14:48:22 GMT -8
The way I see it, if Wilky had prefaced his original post with "Regular Season Wins" all of you wouldn't have needed 2 pages to bitch and moan. Yes, I meant regular season wins, which was why I excluded Robinson's 2008-2009 season. I thought that was obvious from context but obviously not. Apologies to everyone for the first two pages of this.
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