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Post by beavs6 on Mar 5, 2018 13:03:50 GMT -8
I am watching as the inevitable seems to be happening-that is the Ucks overwhelming $$$ resource advantage seems to be leaving our fine Beaver women's basketball program somewhere in the rear view mirror. It is fascinating that my (and I believe most other fans) devotion and connection with their favorite teams seems to "blind them" to the reality that the #$# wins in an overwhelming majority of instances. In the NFL, NBA, and Major league baseball significant procedures, policies, etc. are in place to at least attempt to somewhat level the playing field so that a better chance exists for various teams to win. Yet, the NCAA does no such thing, because fans continue to behave like lemmings going over the edge of a cliff-that is continuing to support a system that in most cases gives the vast majority of teams zero chance of winning. It is obvious that the "haves" teams need to have a significantly higher number of "have not" teams to play against, so why are the "have not teams" unable or unwilling to use their collective greater numbers to achieve a much more level playing field than now exists. Within the PAC 12 for instance, you have OSU/WSU/UTAH/COLORADO/CALIFORNIA that in general have a significantly less chance of winning titles-yet their presidents and athletic directors seem to blindly go on with the "herd" meekly accepting the meager handouts they are given. Clearly the NCAA is an enabler of the system of the "rich get richer". The NCAA has all the $$$ resources in the world to enforce the weak rules that it does have for attempting to balance competition. Yet, it allows major violation after major violation where the "big boys" of college sports use their overwhelming financial advantage to cheat even more (recent College basketball scandal is a clear case in point). Would be interested in hearing from the many astute Beaver fans on this website about their thoughts on my post. Thank you! P.S. If there is anyone who believes that the UCKs women's basketball team did not achieve this rapid rise due to Sugar Daddy Phil's $$$$, I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn for you! Construction on Matthew Knight Arena was completed in January 2011. Much of the home Pac10 season was played in Matt Knight. Coach for the Duck women for 2011-12, 2012-13, and 2013-14 was Paul Westhead. Losing record in Pac-10/12 play for all 3 seasons. Kelly Graves first year in Eugene, 2014-15 was a losing record. Season 2 was .500 in Pac12 play, Season 3 [2016-2017] was 8-10 in conference ... with Sabrina as a freshman. Fact is Coach Graves and his staff worked hard to recruit better players to build the program. I suppose that paying Graves a slightly higher salary and hiring Campbell away could be "spending money to win" ... but your post implies that it is Phil Knights investment (Phil earmarks his investment in Oregon athletics for facilities) that has made the difference. From the most recent data I found, Scott Rueck makes $536K per year plus bonuses. He earned 100K in bonuses in 2016-2017. Kelly Graves received a re-negotiated contract after the Elite 8 appearance in April 2017. His new contract is for 684K plus incentives. I am guessing $150K additional compensation to Rueck won't change recruiting much - especially given how successful Rueck has been in the past and the great class he has coming in for next season. So, that brings me back to the question ... if Matt Knight isn't the big draw for recruits, then what exactly did Oregon spend money on to "buy" their success? Is there any chance you could acknowledge the hard work of the coaches and players at Oregon as the reason for their success? No 85...oregon has HUGE advantages in the athletic department as a whole. "So, that brings me back to the question ... if Matt Knight isn't the big draw for recruits, then what exactly did Oregon spend money on to "buy" their success?" PK's $ has brought a large amount of facilities on the campus, would you agree?(either directly or indirectly. If he spends $ on one area, funds can be diverted from there to other areas) The Cas Center...MATT Knight...baseball field...athlete education center...the list continues. I have kids in "minor sports" that have been on official recruiting visits to other institutions and to uo. I can tell you that you would be hard pressed to find an athletic department as a whole that has spent more incrementally than uo has over the last 15 years. It is very impressive. Kudos to you and your University. When "student athletes" state that they can't wait to meet the (owner of the athletic dept-my words) Phil Knight, that is a concern. It is very well known that there is a very LARGE PIPELINE into the business world of athletics that runs through uofo, with NIKE connections.(Either to NIKE directly, or the world of Professional Sports Leagues, Teams, administration, NCAA DIV I all the way down to the NAIA ranks) PH and NIKE have such LONG REACHING TENTACLES, one would have to be a complete fool, or intentionally blind to not acknowledge that fact. Yes, coaches and athletes at all institutions have to work hard to be elite. Do you think uo athletics have no advantage having "Uncle Phil"? His contributions are not tangible to securing "better athletes"? Nobody here says PK is the ONLY reason oregon athletics have improved over the last 20 odd years. Only that his $ is a HUGE reason why it has. If you choose to not acknowledge that fact, that is your choice.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Mar 5, 2018 13:09:12 GMT -8
Last season she played for the Ducks. Yes, my bad. I meant to say she was at several OSU games during the 2015-16 season. I think we would have signed her had she indicated she wanted to come here during the April, 2016, signing period. She didn't, and instead decided to draw out the signing process to draw more attention to herself. So it goes. We will be fine with Destiny.
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Post by ochobeavo on Mar 5, 2018 13:14:32 GMT -8
I am watching as the inevitable seems to be happening-that is the Ucks overwhelming $$$ resource advantage seems to be leaving our fine Beaver women's basketball program somewhere in the rear view mirror.I don't follow women's hoops very closely, but ranked #13 in what amounts to a rebuild with 1(?) senior? I think I'd take that "rear view mirror" all day.
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Post by texasbeaver on Mar 5, 2018 13:48:50 GMT -8
Last season she played for the Ducks. Yes, my bad. I meant to say she was at several OSU games during the 2015-16 season. I think we would have signed her had she indicated she wanted to come here during the April, 2016, signing period. She didn't, and instead decided to draw out the signing process to draw more attention to herself. So it goes. We will be fine with Destiny. I agree with you on drawing out the signing process. Her recruitment process was unusual to say the least. I think thats why (if true) Scott backed off of recruiting her. She is quoted as saying (regarding Oregon State) I don't want to be a piece, I want to be the piece.
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Post by green85 on Mar 5, 2018 14:12:34 GMT -8
The answer to your question is a resounding no. In support of that answer I offer the following: (a) If Phil Knight chooses to put several million dollars in one of your pockets rather than in another pocket (facilities pocket vs some other use pocket), you still have several million dollars more than your competition. (b) I live in Spokane and watched Kelly Graves coach for years. He was an excellent coach here (every bit as good as he is now) and never won like he is doing at Oregon. (c) You missed my point entirely regarding the whole structure of big time college athletics-Oregon was a similar bottom feeder as OSU for many many years. What changed Oregon from also-ran to one of the elite handful was the almighty dollar as provided by Phil Knight. Just to clarify a couple of things: 1. Coach's salaries come from the annual Operating Budget, not the Capital Budget. Phil Knight supports the Capital Budget with targeted donations. The 9,000 Duck Athletic Fund donors along with other revenue sources supply the Operating Revenue. 2. Kelly Graves was a consistent winner at Gonzaga. 3 WCC and NCAA Tournament 3.1 2006–07 Season and Gonzaga's First NCAA Tournament Appearance 3.2 2008–09 Season and Gonzaga's First NCAA Tournament Victory 3.3 2009–10 Season and Gonzaga's First Ever Sweet 16 3.4 2010–11 and Gonzaga's Magical Run in the NCAA Tournament 3.5 The Post Vandersloot Era and 2012 NCAA Tournament 3.6 2012–13 Season and 2013 NCAA Tournament Those accomplishments were more than any coach at Oregon accomplished in the same time period. 3. Your point about the NCAA "leveling the playing field" lacks specifics Are you suggesting controlling coach's salaries for women's basketball? Are you suggesting that schools like Kentucky or Texas or Tennessee that have very nice Men's Basketball facilities should not be allowed to use those facilities? Serious question ... what exactly do you want to see done to level the playing field for women's basketball? BTW ... I suspect that many folks in the Pac12 would view OSU's 3 women's Pac12 Championships in basketball as evidence that any school in the Pac12 can rise to that level of success. I am not sure you can find a logical extension from those championships to some assessment that OSU is at a disadvantage at this time - OSU has a great coach, excellent staff, top notch players on the roster, a great transfer about to join the team (Destiny) and a great recruiting class coming to join the #3 team in the conference (2017-18); how exactly should the NCAA change the competitive landscape under those circumstances?
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Post by green85 on Mar 5, 2018 14:30:05 GMT -8
Construction on Matthew Knight Arena was completed in January 2011. Much of the home Pac10 season was played in Matt Knight. Coach for the Duck women for 2011-12, 2012-13, and 2013-14 was Paul Westhead. Losing record in Pac-10/12 play for all 3 seasons. Kelly Graves first year in Eugene, 2014-15 was a losing record. Season 2 was .500 in Pac12 play, Season 3 [2016-2017] was 8-10 in conference ... with Sabrina as a freshman. Fact is Coach Graves and his staff worked hard to recruit better players to build the program. I suppose that paying Graves a slightly higher salary and hiring Campbell away could be "spending money to win" ... but your post implies that it is Phil Knights investment (Phil earmarks his investment in Oregon athletics for facilities) that has made the difference. From the most recent data I found, Scott Rueck makes $536K per year plus bonuses. He earned 100K in bonuses in 2016-2017. Kelly Graves received a re-negotiated contract after the Elite 8 appearance in April 2017. His new contract is for 684K plus incentives. I am guessing $150K additional compensation to Rueck won't change recruiting much - especially given how successful Rueck has been in the past and the great class he has coming in for next season. So, that brings me back to the question ... if Matt Knight isn't the big draw for recruits, then what exactly did Oregon spend money on to "buy" their success? Is there any chance you could acknowledge the hard work of the coaches and players at Oregon as the reason for their success? No 85...oregon has HUGE advantages in the athletic department as a whole. "So, that brings me back to the question ... if Matt Knight isn't the big draw for recruits, then what exactly did Oregon spend money on to "buy" their success?" PK's $ has brought a large amount of facilities on the campus, would you agree?(either directly or indirectly. If he spends $ on one area, funds can be diverted from there to other areas) The Cas Center...MATT Knight...baseball field...athlete education center...the list continues. I have kids in "minor sports" that have been on official recruiting visits to other institutions and to uo. I can tell you that you would be hard pressed to find an athletic department as a whole that has spent more incrementally than uo has over the last 15 years. It is very impressive. Kudos to you and your University. When "student athletes" state that they can't wait to meet the (owner of the athletic dept-my words) Phil Knight, that is a concern. It is very well known that there is a very LARGE PIPELINE into the business world of athletics that runs through uofo, with NIKE connections.(Either to NIKE directly, or the world of Professional Sports Leagues, Teams, administration, NCAA DIV I all the way down to the NAIA ranks) PH and NIKE have such LONG REACHING TENTACLES, one would have to be a complete fool, or intentionally blind to not acknowledge that fact. Yes, coaches and athletes at all institutions have to work hard to be elite. Do you think uo athletics have no advantage having "Uncle Phil"? His contributions are not tangible to securing "better athletes"? Nobody here says PK is the ONLY reason oregon athletics have improved over the last 20 odd years. Only that his $ is a HUGE reason why it has. If you choose to not acknowledge that fact, that is your choice. I do not deny that Phil Knight has donated generously to Oregon athletics to a point that all athletic programs have been lifted. What I argue to those that point to that as THE FACTOR in success at Oregon in any sport, is that ignores all the other factors that play into results on the field. I am sorry, but the fact that Paul Westhead could not recruit better players to Oregon before, during and after the construction of Matt Knight arena tells you something about how much facilities CANNOT do to get good players. Oregon had ALL of the advantages in facilities while Westhead was coach but none of the success. Even Coach Graves had an uphill climb in his first two seasons to produce a winner or recruit top notch players. Graves was fortunate that local Lexi Bando decided Oregon was a good place to be. As for the Nike connection ... I can be completely honest when I say the folks at Nike would much prefer to have qualified employees that contribute to their bottom line than to care for one minute what school is listed on the diploma. Oregon has a degree program in Sports Marketing that was started in the mid-90's. THAT program feeds more qualified candidates to businesses like Nike than ANY of the athletic programs. And before you say "Yeah, but the athletes get a great shot at endorsement contracts from Nike" ... again Nike marketing cares about the "reach" and "impact" that their professional athletes have to contribute to the success of the marketing effort much more than they care about the alma mater on their jersey. Sorry. It may be convenient to say that recruits sign with Oregon because of Nike, because it seems obvious. But that naive assessment of a global enterprise and how they do business is really short on logic in the real world. I would be interested to see evidence to support your claim of "... a very LARGE PIPELINE into the business world of athletics that runs through uofo ..." - without reference to graduates of the Sport Marketing Degree program. Note: A couple of facts ... the Cas Center was not financed by Uncle Phil. Some of the improvements have come with his help. The baseball complex is from the work and money of Pat Kilkenny. Kilkenny put together a group of donors for this project. I would assume that Knight gave some money, but he is not listed in any specific reference to building the baseball field (his is listed in everything else he has financed). Jane Sanders Stadium (softball field) was financed by the Sanders family as a tribute to the late Jane Sanders. Again, I can assume that Knight contributed, but nothing I have read lists him as a donor to the project. The Jaqua Center for athlete educational support is available to all athletes, and certainly is not a competitive advantage based upon the existence of the same type of facilities at every Pac12 school (including OSU).
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Post by blackbug on Mar 5, 2018 14:39:30 GMT -8
I find this discussion to be short sighted and reactionary. I thought the women's basketball season has been wonderful thus far. It does not diminish this at all just because our rivals had a slightly better season thus far. I predict that our team will continue to be relevant nationally. I actually predict our best seasons with Coaching Rueck are yet to come. The increased competitiveness of our rival does not change this.
This time last year we were coming out as conference champions and hosting. Yet it was the ucks who found a path to go farther in the post season. I would not be surprised to see our ladies advance deeper in the NCAA tournament this time.
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2ndGenBeaver
Sophomore
Posts: 1,826
Grad Year: 1991 (MS/CS) 1999 (PhD/CS)
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on Mar 5, 2018 15:33:47 GMT -8
I really enjoyed the original posting - the notion that college athletics tries to dress itself up in the respectable cloak of amateur athletes competing for the love of the sport and their school is directly in conflict with the fact that there is a monopolistic, cynical, big business driver called the NCAA calling the shots......and actually, in my mind, it feeds into and simplifies the business goals of the NCAA for there to be a system of schools that are always "on top" and the "have not" teams that are regularly losing to those aforementioned "haves".
I think what drew this discussion away from that initial thesis was the last line of the OP - the one indicating the 'ucks are in the "have" bucket due to Uncle Phil. The 'uck apologists engaged (and actually supplied some well-reasoned arguments) to support the fact that WBB is behind the power curve of other 'uck programs in leveraging a combination of good/ethically challenged coaches, eye-popping facilities, and perceived access to Nike support of various sorts to rise into the ranks of the "haves". Disclaimer - I write this paragraph with open bias as a Beaver fan. That doesn't take away from the main premise of the thread, which in my mind is:
I wonder if spending caps or more enlightened administration in favor of level playing field competition by a revised NCAA could return college athletics to the initial premise of amateur athletics. I don't know if we can turn back the clock. In my mind, there are some endeavors that should not be monetized, or done so only in some tasteful manner, but your mileage may vary. In the meanwhile, I too choose to ignore the fact that the NCAA has monetized the sports to the point that it has become a magnet for shady characters and practices, and disrupted the notion of a level playing field......I try to dwell on the OSU success stories, and ignore the rest, but when you see the disparity in facilities, salaries and sugar daddies, or read the stories on some of the shady characters, it sometimes gets hard to do so!
Go Beavers!
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Post by skyrider on Mar 5, 2018 16:08:20 GMT -8
As the original poster, in hindsight I wish I had left out the last line about the UCKs and Uncle Phil. I agree with you that sentence seemed to take the path of the whole discussion away from the direction I hoped it would go.
Thank you for your insightful and reasoned response. It would appear to me that the fact that OSU has not been to a Rose Bowl game since the early 1960's would be ample evidence that as Yoda would say, "A level playing field we have not"
Go Beavers.
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Post by green85 on Mar 5, 2018 17:23:55 GMT -8
I really enjoyed the original posting - the notion that college athletics tries to dress itself up in the respectable cloak of amateur athletes competing for the love of the sport and their school is directly in conflict with the fact that there is a monopolistic, cynical, big business driver called the NCAA calling the shots......and actually, in my mind, it feeds into and simplifies the business goals of the NCAA for there to be a system of schools that are always "on top" and the "have not" teams that are regularly losing to those aforementioned "haves". I think what drew this discussion away from that initial thesis was the last line of the OP - the one indicating the 'ucks are in the "have" bucket due to Uncle Phil. The 'uck apologists engaged (and actually supplied some well-reasoned arguments) to support the fact that WBB is behind the power curve of other 'uck programs in leveraging a combination of good/ethically challenged coaches, eye-popping facilities, and perceived access to Nike support of various sorts to rise into the ranks of the "haves". Disclaimer - I write this paragraph with open bias as a Beaver fan. That doesn't take away from the main premise of the thread, which in my mind is: I wonder if spending caps or more enlightened administration in favor of level playing field competition by a revised NCAA could return college athletics to the initial premise of amateur athletics. I don't know if we can turn back the clock. In my mind, there are some endeavors that should not be monetized, or done so only in some tasteful manner, but your mileage may vary. In the meanwhile, I too choose to ignore the fact that the NCAA has monetized the sports to the point that it has become a magnet for shady characters and practices, and disrupted the notion of a level playing field......I try to dwell on the OSU success stories, and ignore the rest, but when you see the disparity in facilities, salaries and sugar daddies, or read the stories on some of the shady characters, it sometimes gets hard to do so! Go Beavers! So let's return to the concept of the NCAA administering a level playing field. In the context of ANY women's collegiate sport there is virtually no NET monetary value derived by either the NCAA or the schools from the biggest (by attendance and TV viewership) sports. Tennessee and Connecticut being the rare exception, it is more often you will see average attendance for a college women's basketball near 1500 than you will see 4,000. The cost for a woman's collegiate athletic scholarship is the same as a man's scholarship (again let's remain focused on the basketball model). Certainly the value of an education at Duke or Stanford is higher based upon the institution, so naturally when they offer a scholarship to a woman to play basketball they will have that advantage. In this instance I cannot imagine the NCAA can set limits for value of a scholarship. Few women basketball players find the opportunity to play professional basketball. And their compensation for this career is such that schools would rarely compete on the basis of "sending a player to the pros" as a recruiting factor. Juxtaposed to the men's game this is a major difference, both monetarily and as a factor in recruiting. Not only would it be a waste of time to have the NCAA regulate women's basketball for this factor, it simply is not an identified problem in recruiting and/or an advantage for any particular school at this time. What does that leave us with for the NCAA to regulate to "even the playing field" in women's collegiate basketball? Coach's salaries Spending on women's specific facilities The number of assistant coaches The amount of academic support (measured in dollars invested or hours of tutors available) Housing Coach's salaries. Why not control them? 1. Because those salaries currently are substantially behind what a male makes for the same work. 2. Because you want to encourage great coaches to enter the women's game 3. Because you cannot control the cost of living in various geographic or metropolitan areas (it cost a lot more to live in LA than to live in Pullman) 4. Merit - in most cases people believe that performance merits pay (some coaches are really good and deserve lots of money; others not so much) Spending on women's specific facilities - fact is few schools have women specific basketball facilities. The courts and other physical plant items are shared with men in nearly all cases. So, even if the NCAA wanted to control this in some way they have the legacy and planned facilities that are in place at places like Kentucky that will be available to their women regardless. And again, women's basketball is not a revenue generator so there is not some pot of money for women's only facilities that would then need to be controlled to level the playing field. The number of assistant coaches - again you want people interested in coaching women's basketball at the collegiate level. And you need a staff to help the women get better. Not something I see the NCAA controlling in the short term (note the change in football to ADD an assistant). Academic support - it makes absolutely no sense to limit spending on this for women. Housing - on-campus dorms or off-campus subsidy. You could attempt to control this, but once again you run into the geographic cost-of-living inequity. Can you suggest exactly what you expect the NCAA to control to "level the playing field" in women's collegiate basketball?
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Post by carlosdanger on Mar 5, 2018 17:59:41 GMT -8
(b) I live in Spokane and watched Kelly Graves coach for years. He was an excellent coach here (every bit as good as he is now) and never won like he is doing at Oregon. When Graves was at Gonzaga, they won their league 10 straight seasons. They made the NCAA Tournament 6 straight seasons, made it to the Sweet 16 three straight seasons, and made it to the Elite 8. I'm not really sure what your argument is.
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Post by skyrider on Mar 5, 2018 18:38:55 GMT -8
Perhaps if you read my points (a) (b) and (c) and responded to them in total, rather than just picking one of the three points out in order to strengthen your own position, you might be more "sure" of what my argument is.
Go Beavers!
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Post by albanianbeav on Mar 5, 2018 18:59:59 GMT -8
I am watching as the inevitable seems to be happening-that is the Ucks overwhelming $$$ resource advantage seems to be leaving our fine Beaver women's basketball program somewhere in the rear view mirror. It is fascinating that my (and I believe most other fans) devotion and connection with their favorite teams seems to "blind them" to the reality that the #$# wins in an overwhelming majority of instances. In the NFL, NBA, and Major league baseball significant procedures, policies, etc. are in place to at least attempt to somewhat level the playing field so that a better chance exists for various teams to win. Yet, the NCAA does no such thing, because fans continue to behave like lemmings going over the edge of a cliff-that is continuing to support a system that in most cases gives the vast majority of teams zero chance of winning. It is obvious that the "haves" teams need to have a significantly higher number of "have not" teams to play against, so why are the "have not teams" unable or unwilling to use their collective greater numbers to achieve a much more level playing field than now exists. Within the PAC 12 for instance, you have OSU/WSU/UTAH/COLORADO/CALIFORNIA that in general have a significantly less chance of winning titles-yet their presidents and athletic directors seem to blindly go on with the "herd" meekly accepting the meager handouts they are given. Clearly the NCAA is an enabler of the system of the "rich get richer". The NCAA has all the $$$ resources in the world to enforce the weak rules that it does have for attempting to balance competition. Yet, it allows major violation after major violation where the "big boys" of college sports use their overwhelming financial advantage to cheat even more (recent College basketball scandal is a clear case in point). Would be interested in hearing from the many astute Beaver fans on this website about their thoughts on my post. Thank you! P.S. If there is anyone who believes that the UCKs women's basketball team did not achieve this rapid rise due to Sugar Daddy Phil's $$$$, I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn for you! Construction on Matthew Knight Arena was completed in January 2011. Much of the home Pac10 season was played in Matt Knight. Coach for the Duck women for 2011-12, 2012-13, and 2013-14 was Paul Westhead. Losing record in Pac-10/12 play for all 3 seasons. Kelly Graves first year in Eugene, 2014-15 was a losing record. Season 2 was .500 in Pac12 play, Season 3 [2016-2017] was 8-10 in conference ... with Sabrina as a freshman. Fact is Coach Graves and his staff worked hard to recruit better players to build the program. I suppose that paying Graves a slightly higher salary and hiring Campbell away could be "spending money to win" ... but your post implies that it is Phil Knights investment (Phil earmarks his investment in Oregon athletics for facilities) that has made the difference. From the most recent data I found, Scott Rueck makes $536K per year plus bonuses. He earned 100K in bonuses in 2016-2017. Kelly Graves received a re-negotiated contract after the Elite 8 appearance in April 2017. His new contract is for 684K plus incentives. I am guessing $150K additional compensation to Rueck won't change recruiting much - especially given how successful Rueck has been in the past and the great class he has coming in for next season. So, that brings me back to the question ... if Matt Knight isn't the big draw for recruits, then what exactly did Oregon spend money on to "buy" their success? Is there any chance you could acknowledge the hard work of the coaches and players at Oregon as the reason for their success? Next to facilities, the biggest thing PK brings to the table is marketing. That is where the money goes, what makes uo ‘cool’, and draws quality players and coaches. Nike has endorsement deals with ESPN sportscasters. Wonder why? Do you think it is odd that you see the duck mascot on every college-themed national promotion? PK is a marketing genius. He’s just using it now to promote his alma mater. I’m not a doom & gloomer though. We can go toe to toe with them. We just need to work harder across the board; recruiting, coaching, weight room, etc. I prefer athletes that the glitz does not appeal to, the put your nose to the grindstone type. If we renew our Nike sponsor deal, I may cease being a donor.
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Post by beavs6 on Mar 5, 2018 19:02:08 GMT -8
No 85...oregon has HUGE advantages in the athletic department as a whole. "So, that brings me back to the question ... if Matt Knight isn't the big draw for recruits, then what exactly did Oregon spend money on to "buy" their success?" PK's $ has brought a large amount of facilities on the campus, would you agree?(either directly or indirectly. If he spends $ on one area, funds can be diverted from there to other areas) The Cas Center...MATT Knight...baseball field...athlete education center...the list continues. I have kids in "minor sports" that have been on official recruiting visits to other institutions and to uo. I can tell you that you would be hard pressed to find an athletic department as a whole that has spent more incrementally than uo has over the last 15 years. It is very impressive. Kudos to you and your University. When "student athletes" state that they can't wait to meet the (owner of the athletic dept-my words) Phil Knight, that is a concern. It is very well known that there is a very LARGE PIPELINE into the business world of athletics that runs through uofo, with NIKE connections.(Either to NIKE directly, or the world of Professional Sports Leagues, Teams, administration, NCAA DIV I all the way down to the NAIA ranks) PH and NIKE have such LONG REACHING TENTACLES, one would have to be a complete fool, or intentionally blind to not acknowledge that fact. Yes, coaches and athletes at all institutions have to work hard to be elite. Do you think uo athletics have no advantage having "Uncle Phil"? His contributions are not tangible to securing "better athletes"? Nobody here says PK is the ONLY reason oregon athletics have improved over the last 20 odd years. Only that his $ is a HUGE reason why it has. If you choose to not acknowledge that fact, that is your choice. I do not deny that Phil Knight has donated generously to Oregon athletics to a point that all athletic programs have been lifted. What I argue to those that point to that as THE FACTOR in success at Oregon in any sport, is that ignores all the other factors that play into results on the field. I am sorry, but the fact that Paul Westhead could not recruit better players to Oregon before, during and after the construction of Matt Knight arena tells you something about how much facilities CANNOT do to get good players. Oregon had ALL of the advantages in facilities while Westhead was coach but none of the success. Even Coach Graves had an uphill climb in his first two seasons to produce a winner or recruit top notch players. Graves was fortunate that local Lexi Bando decided Oregon was a good place to be. As for the Nike connection ... I can be completely honest when I say the folks at Nike would much prefer to have qualified employees that contribute to their bottom line than to care for one minute what school is listed on the diploma. Oregon has a degree program in Sports Marketing that was started in the mid-90's. THAT program feeds more qualified candidates to businesses like Nike than ANY of the athletic programs. And before you say "Yeah, but the athletes get a great shot at endorsement contracts from Nike" ... again Nike marketing cares about the "reach" and "impact" that their professional athletes have to contribute to the success of the marketing effort much more than they care about the alma mater on their jersey. Sorry. It may be convenient to say that recruits sign with Oregon because of Nike, because it seems obvious. But that naive assessment of a global enterprise and how they do business is really short on logic in the real world. I would be interested to see evidence to support your claim of "... a very LARGE PIPELINE into the business world of athletics that runs through uofo ..." - without reference to graduates of the Sport Marketing Degree program. Note: A couple of facts ... the Cas Center was not financed by Uncle Phil. Some of the improvements have come with his help. The baseball complex is from the work and money of Pat Kilkenny. Kilkenny put together a group of donors for this project. I would assume that Knight gave some money, but he is not listed in any specific reference to building the baseball field (his is listed in everything else he has financed). Jane Sanders Stadium (softball field) was financed by the Sanders family as a tribute to the late Jane Sanders. Again, I can assume that Knight contributed, but nothing I have read lists him as a donor to the project. The Jaqua Center for athlete educational support is available to all athletes, and certainly is not a competitive advantage based upon the existence of the same type of facilities at every Pac12 school (including OSU). Way to to disect and pick some points and brush over others. I mentioned that if any organization gets an infusion of cash in one area, they can divert funds that would be spent in that area and spend those funds in another.(Thus effectively spending more on both) The fact that PK did not spend one dime (if true) on the Cas does not mean there wasn't more capital available for that project because PK spent money elsewhere. Thank you for reminding me of the name of the Jaqua Center. If you think that is "average" as the same type of all PAC-12 facilities...man you need to get out more. And yes, it can be used for by ALL athletes. So if that facility is "nicer" or "more opulant" than other school's athletic dept. academic centers, then it by nature becomes a recruiting ADVANTAGE for say...the women's hoops program. You can deny the NIKE/uofo connection and say it is because of the sports marketing dept. Could the sports marketing dept be there because of NIKE?(especially since the program, as you stated, started in.....drum roll please....the mid 90's) Look, do I wish OSU had the advantages of a PK...hell yes I do. For someone like you 85 to try to downplay ALL of the advantages...both tangible and intangible...that PK and the company he grew are to uo is really weak. It lends itself to the saying..."He was born on third base and thought he hit a triple".
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Post by gnawitall on Mar 5, 2018 19:30:13 GMT -8
I do not deny that Phil Knight has donated generously to Oregon athletics to a point that all athletic programs have been lifted. What I argue to those that point to that as THE FACTOR in success at Oregon in any sport, is that ignores all the other factors that play into results on the field. I am sorry, but the fact that Paul Westhead could not recruit better players to Oregon before, during and after the construction of Matt Knight arena tells you something about how much facilities CANNOT do to get good players. Oregon had ALL of the advantages in facilities while Westhead was coach but none of the success. Even Coach Graves had an uphill climb in his first two seasons to produce a winner or recruit top notch players. Graves was fortunate that local Lexi Bando decided Oregon was a good place to be. As for the Nike connection ... I can be completely honest when I say the folks at Nike would much prefer to have qualified employees that contribute to their bottom line than to care for one minute what school is listed on the diploma. Oregon has a degree program in Sports Marketing that was started in the mid-90's. THAT program feeds more qualified candidates to businesses like Nike than ANY of the athletic programs. And before you say "Yeah, but the athletes get a great shot at endorsement contracts from Nike" ... again Nike marketing cares about the "reach" and "impact" that their professional athletes have to contribute to the success of the marketing effort much more than they care about the alma mater on their jersey. Sorry. It may be convenient to say that recruits sign with Oregon because of Nike, because it seems obvious. But that naive assessment of a global enterprise and how they do business is really short on logic in the real world. I would be interested to see evidence to support your claim of "... a very LARGE PIPELINE into the business world of athletics that runs through uofo ..." - without reference to graduates of the Sport Marketing Degree program. Note: A couple of facts ... the Cas Center was not financed by Uncle Phil. Some of the improvements have come with his help. The baseball complex is from the work and money of Pat Kilkenny. Kilkenny put together a group of donors for this project. I would assume that Knight gave some money, but he is not listed in any specific reference to building the baseball field (his is listed in everything else he has financed). Jane Sanders Stadium (softball field) was financed by the Sanders family as a tribute to the late Jane Sanders. Again, I can assume that Knight contributed, but nothing I have read lists him as a donor to the project. The Jaqua Center for athlete educational support is available to all athletes, and certainly is not a competitive advantage based upon the existence of the same type of facilities at every Pac12 school (including OSU). Way to to disect and pick some points and brush over others. I mentioned that if any organization gets an infusion of cash in one area, they can divert funds that would be spent in that area and spend those funds in another.(Thus effectively spending more on both) The fact that PK did not spend one dime (if true) on the Cas does not mean there wasn't more capital available for that project because PK spent money elsewhere. Thank you for reminding me of the name of the Jaqua Center. If you think that is "average" as the same type of all PAC-12 facilities...man you need to get out more. And yes, it can be used for by ALL athletes. So if that facility is "nicer" or "more opulant" than other school's athletic dept. academic centers, then it by nature becomes a recruiting ADVANTAGE for say...the women's hoops program. You can deny the NIKE/uofo connection and say it is because of the sports marketing dept. Could the sports marketing dept be there because of NIKE?(especially since the program, as you stated, started in.....drum roll please....the mid 90's) Look, do I wish OSU had the advantages of a PK...hell yes I do. For someone like you 85 to try to downplay ALL of the advantages...both tangible and intangible...that PK and the company he grew are to uo is really weak. It lends itself to the saying..."He was born on third base and thought he hit a triple". Laughed out loud at that saying. Never heard it.
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